Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Toth]

No one has really discussed these in a bit but about the Helices...

1) What are they supposed to be exactly? Why the term "Helix" in their title? Could there be a clue in there about their true nature?

2) What effect does weather really have on them?

3) Can there be a trick to unlocking their full power? (I.e more powerful in opposing weather, effected by zone weather, not artificial) etc

[Mordru]

Wow, I actually took the time to read this whole thread. You guys have some great ideas about how to enhance the job, which it definitely needs.

SCH 58 here.

I just want to give my two cents. First if this job gets Haste, Refresh or Regain, I'll either retire it forever or just never cast them. I want enhancements that play off of and enhance SCHs unique abilities, not things that again make me do what I already got sick of on other jobs. I think SCH can be made useful and wanted by playing up what already makes it unique.

My votes are for:
1. Strategems usable on other players!
2. Lower recharge time of strategems or make all charges available every 4 minutes.
3. New strategems for:
A. Next spell causes no enmity (timing would be fun to get this off on a WHM after they start casting Cure 4, before it lands)
B. Next spell can't be interrupted (again fun timing challenge to cast on NIN pre-37 when Ichi needs to be recast)
C. Next self-buff can be cast on any other single target (e.g. Ice Spikes to tank but no one else)
4. Tier 2 storms that give double weather
5. Lower recast time on storms
6. Elemental enfeebles natively BEFORE BLM (it is RIDICULOUS that this is not already available)

My favorite is something I saw on another forum, so I take no credit. Add a JA at level 25 called "Geomancy" that when used on a party member adds a buff to that member based on that member's weather. Fire could be Store TP, Ice could be Magic Accuracy, Thunder Accuracy, Wind Flurry, Dark Consere MP, Light Magic Defense, etc. I don't really care much what the effects are, I just like the idea of these weather effects not being latent spells because I really don't need anything else to cast! I also like that you could use them to take advantage of current zone weather before you get the weather spells, and could coordinate the current zone weather with the storms to affect different players. Also, unlike the latent spell idea, you could apply different effects to different people in the party instead of just having one additional spell available to you. Give this JA a 3 minute duration and 1 minute recast.

I've done lots of testing on weather spells up to 58. Over 4000 casts of various spells, recorded in XP, soloing and messing around on TW mobs. I've recorded on various days, under various spell and zone weather combinations. I've averaged a 43 percent proc rate, which agrees with the standard 33-50% agreed effect of normal weather. I also notice that if my storm matches the current zone weather, I toggle between 10% and 20% bonuses with a rare 25% if my spell+storm matches a double zone weather. If zone weather beats my storm, I have never noticed a reduction in damage.

[Enygma55]

Nothing really special about weather spells. It just makes you have a weather effect on you. All rules that apply to weather apply to your spell.

The only exception to the weather spells is that it stacks with matching weathers. I.E. casting earth weather in fire weather overrides it to only earth weather, But if you cast earth weather in earth weather, you are getting double earth weather. (Triple weather doesnt stack)

Weather and Helices relation is that Helices are 100% weather and day proc. (no obi required)

Not exactly sure what your trying to hint at with what Helix means? Its just a term for a spell. What would you have named them ? The spell wraps itself around the target like a helix and does DoT dmg is what I get at it.

[Kaslo]

Well a Helix is similar to the animation of the elemental dots, and thus since they are bigger elemental based dots they inherit the name >.>

[Not Kuno]

Hit 75 today. Still wearing nothing for head (verm) and shitty seers mitts. Somepage still hasn't the new jobs so it's hard to search for what's useful. Yigit isn't an option.

Any ideas? I'm thinking of Elite Beret and no idea what's good for hands.

[Spekkio]

Hit 75 today. Still wearing nothing for head (verm) and shitty seers mitts. Somepage still hasn't the new jobs so it's hard to search for what's useful. Yigit isn't an option.

Any ideas? I'm thinking of Elite Beret and no idea what's good for hands.

well, errant hands aren't HORRIBLE.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=14078&sid=24
and while i doubt they'd be the end all solution, they're better than seer's. MC bracelets might have uses in sea and such.

[Not Kuno]

Oh you're right, I guess I just overlooked those. The 5 int is pretty nice. Also I'm not windurstian so those are out. I'll go with that and beret then. Ty.

[shukuffxi]

Genie Gages? http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=14948&sid=24 If not needing the +INT from Errant.

[finalwolf]

sorta like cor's light/dark shot with their added effect.. how about adding the elemental enfeebles to helix

geo -> dmg/tick + slow
fire -> dmg/tick + plaque
etc...

dark/light helix can use bio/dia's effect (atk down, def down)

[Lordwafik]

fire -> dmg/tick + plaque

Fire... adding tooth defects? Who'd have thought!

[Not Kuno]

Add enfeebles to Helix's probably wouldn't work because helixes always land and you wouldn't know if the add effect did either or got resisted. Also it would piss of rdms trying to land greater slow/paralyze or whatever they helixes do with this system. You can only have one helix on as well meaning if there is no enfeebler you are only stuck with one option.


What would be interesting is if they worked like the elemental DoTs. Pyrohelix is Magic Attack Down, Hydrohelix is Attack Down, Ionohelix is Magic Defense Down, Geohelix is Accuracy Down, Amenohelix is Defense Down, Cryohelix is Evasion Down, and Light/Dark were Magic Accuracy/Magic Evasion Down or something. Idk. >.>

[ronin sparthos]

Or your added effects could be what the tier II elemental enfeebles do when they land on a target rather than just a second tier of normal stat loss (STR, DEX etc) on top of superior damage per tic than the tier 1s.

Drown II = Attack Down
Burn II = M.Attack Down
Frost II = Evasion Down
Shock II = M.Defense Down
Rasp II = Accuracy Down
Choke II = Defense Down

6 new spells right there~

[Miltani]

For those who soloed flan in mt zhalyom, what lvl did you all started going? I went there at 69-70 and my resist rate is ard 70%

[Kaeko]

For those who soloed flan in mt zhalyom, what lvl did you all started going? I went there at 69-70 and my resist rate is ard 70%

I started at 72 (Mahatma Gear gives a tremendous boost). I had +16 Elemental Skill (and I think +8 for Enfeebling) from merits already though. It's not super fast but it is pretty reasonable EXP for solo.

If your gravity resists initially, I'd just zone unless you're feeling daring. Also watch out for the "Ability Aggro" thing. It's really annoying for a JA based mage job.

[Damane]

Scholar is left in a grey area, the job is not specialized at anything particular.

Pros:
- Ability to adjust to varies situations by subjob and stratagems
- low MP cost on spells due to dark/light arts
- DoT spells

Cons:
- very limited spelllist
- no natural crowd control, subdependent
- magic attacks dont come up on par with blm
- helixes dont stack, makeing more then one scholar undesired
- stratagems recast, since the uniquness of the job relies on its abilitys
- weather recast/duration time
- subjob dependent
- no haste, no stoneskin, no blink

WHM:
- emergency sleep repose
- master of healing spells, natural -ga healing spells
- status removeal effect
- master of magic defense buffs (with proper gear and merits)

RDM:
- sleep I and II, gravity, bind for crowd control
- Refresh
- convert, basicly an endless manapool
- enfeebling master
- limited magical attack that doesnt match nowhere the power of a blm

BLM:
- potent crowd control with sleep I II -ga -ga II, bind
- very potent magic attacks
- Stun

unique things a scholar can do:
- graviga
- enspellgas
- aquaveilga
- strong DoT spells, tough can not stack
- aspirga
- drainga

AoE blink can easy be done with just /smn and is anyway not required mostly
AoE stoneskin can easy be done from SMN and BLUs every min instead of every 4 min
AoE phalanx can be done by SMN, RDM can simply just cast phalanx II on a target of choice.

all of the unique things a scholar can do are either useless or very limited, in terms of you only use them when something special occurs

People proposed alot of things on how to fix SCH, some pushing the job into the supporting line, others pushing it into a heave ability based job and others pushing it into a strong magical attack job.

Proposal 1
Magic user support SCH:
- giving SCH Skillchain spells to support MBs
- fixing duration/recast of weather spells to support further BLM/RDM/SMN/WHM

This would could turn SCH into the BLMs best friend, on the other hand it could make melees for skillchains fairly useless on HNM fights for shells that are heavy mage dependent. The use of SCH would tough still be very limited but unique, as it would be the first job to introduce skillchains based on MP, like DNC is the first job to introduce healing based on TP.

Proposal 2
the RDM clone supporter
adding to spelllist:
- Refresh
- Haste
- Stoneskin
- Blink
- Regain

the probably perfect fix to make SCH more wanted in meripo/general PTs and pushing it into a support/healer hybrid class. Would surely open up some spots on Endgame on the cost of rdm spots. Still lacks crowd control tough. Regain would be interesting tough.


Proposal 3
the new magic attacker
- adding Tier IV spells to the spellist of SCH
- make helixes more potent
- stackable helixes so more then one SCH are desired in an alliance fight

for endgame surely interesting. only places I could see this SCH get exp off would be in manaburns. no stun tough and no crowd control still. However it wouldnt differ much from BLMs


Proposal 4
the ability dependent mage
- enhance stratagem charges from 3 to 5
- reduce recast timer on stratagem
- add new stratagem to make enhancing dark magic spells AoE, make enfeebling white magic spells AoE
- fix manifestation to also effect elemental magic
- fix accession to also effect all healing magic spells (includeing raise)

this wouldnt change the essence of what SCH is made of, pure ability subjob depenend mage class, however its effectivness would rise up with this adjustments, but would still leave it with a poor spelllist.

any other ideas?

[Not Kuno]

People say "graviga" like it's useful but it's very useless. I tried SCH in Ein the other day and I ended up waiting on a long recast because making a spell AoE makes the recast 3x. I think that should be changed because Graviga was one of the 'advertised' uses of a SCH and it's completely useless.

Reraise should also be AoE-able.

[Kaeko]

People say "graviga" like it's useful but it's very useless. I tried SCH in Ein the other day and I ended up waiting on a long recast because making a spell AoE makes the recast 3x. I think that should be changed because Graviga was one of the 'advertised' uses of a SCH and it's completely useless.

Reraise should also be AoE-able.

Hmm what mobs were you using it on?

Gravity usually lasts at least 90-120 seconds and the recast timer is only doubled (it's the MP cost that is tripled). With no FC or haste considerations you have to wait a maximum of 120 seconds, but it's really more like 90 seconds to recast (less with Haste). I don't really see anyone having issues with keeping up with recasts unless everything partial resists. Maybe it's an Enfeebling skill or just natural mob resist issue?

I find the fact that gravity wears at different times sometimes more annoying than not being able to keep up with recast timers. We've gone 4 times with the SCH strat using minimal holding jobs and done great. It's definitely not useless, although I suppose your mileage may vary.

[LD]

To be fair, they probably expect you to use Manifestation with Alacrity, so the uselessness comes back to charge issues.

Frankly, the best idea I've heard here was make the 4 minute recast recharge all charges instead of just the one. IMO, at lvl 10, they should give you 2 charges and only give 1 if you're subbing, then you should get more charges at 30, 50, & 70, for a total of 5 for SCH and 2 for sub. That way, non-SCH could get a taste of the system while SCH mains could customize spells more actively and strategically, as was advertized. A SCH should be using strats on multiple spells from the very beginning, not half-way down the line.

The Stratagem effects themselves are fine for the most part, the only one that should definitely be changed is Ebullience (it should be +50% potency to match Rapture). A 5th Strat at lvl 70 seems to be inevitable, to level spacing is set up for it. Only question is what would it be? There's not much more that can be done to a single target spell. I had an idea of the 5th strat making a spell go the next tier up, but that creates as many problems as it solves.

The only spells SCH absolutely need are Haste & SS. Everything else is wishful thinking, and to be honest, a lot of these ideas have to be the most ridiculous crocks of shit I have ever heard in my entire time playing this game. I believe Regain is the best and most cooperative way for a mage to facilitate a SkillChain, and since I don't expect any other mage would get it, it would be a cool & useful spell to give SCH a niche. The Weather spells do need a boost, but beyond cutting the recast in half, I think the best course of action would to make the effects superior to normal single weather in their ability to enhance spells of that element. A decently powered 'Arts' effect would be nice, I think: 10% reduction in MP cost, casting time & recast time for all spells under that element. Maybe even make its effect on damage and acc better.

[Not Kuno]

People say "graviga" like it's useful but it's very useless. I tried SCH in Ein the other day and I ended up waiting on a long recast because making a spell AoE makes the recast 3x. I think that should be changed because Graviga was one of the 'advertised' uses of a SCH and it's completely useless.

Reraise should also be AoE-able.

Hmm what mobs were you using it on?

I was trying it out in Einherjar. Gravitying all the slept mobs so the brds/sleepers can get more breathing room. However for my first gravity the mob I was targeted on ran a bit further then the group resulting in only 3 hit, with a large amount missed. I went to try again and realized I still had a minute and fourty left.


I'm fairly certain Square said Sch will be getting stoneskin/blink. They said one major complaint was the survivablity of going Sch/Blm and Blm/Sch was crap without them.

[Enygma55]

My take on SCH is a specialized job where only 1 or 2 at most is needed in any given situation where any more is useless. Haste is not necessary where as Stoneskin and Blink are ( for survival purposes ).

The only thing IMO that fixes SCH to the fullest in the least amount of change (and reasonable) is add the spells Stoneskin, Blink, Gravity, and Bind. With those spells avaliable innately, their sub choices become very important and not limited. BLM sub for Elemental Seal, WHM sub for curative spells and RDM sub for dispel.

Coupled with Strategem charges being reduced to maybe 2min? recast and do away with (or reduce) the 2x spell recast penalty of Manifestation, SCH would be a formidable job. The reduced timers on Strategems would allow the SCH to combine them aka Manifestation and Alacrity. If SCH gets any more charges that would be a bonus, either naturally or thru merits.

SCH shines only when dealing with events where there's TONS of mobs at once to handle.
Helix on multiple mobs dealing high dmg over time and not high hate (think Dynamis stones and Xarcabard eyes), sleepga (if blm sub) and Graviga.