Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Kaeko]

[quote=Not Kuno]

People say "graviga" like it's useful but it's very useless. I tried SCH in Ein the other day and I ended up waiting on a long recast because making a spell AoE makes the recast 3x. I think that should be changed because Graviga was one of the 'advertised' uses of a SCH and it's completely useless.

Reraise should also be AoE-able.

Hmm what mobs were you using it on?

I was trying it out in Einherjar. Gravitying all the slept mobs so the brds/sleepers can get more breathing room. However for my first gravity the mob I was targeted on ran a bit further then the group resulting in only 3 hit, with a large amount missed. I went to try again and realized I still had a minute and fourty left.[/quote:5ng8qzm3]

Yea if you miss a graviga you're pretty much fucked if you were going to rely on it. The range is pretty decent at 10' AoE but I've definitely messed up in the exact same way before too. We always make sure they are all slept before attempting Graviga so they don't move around.

[TeancumMemsochet]

unique things a scholar can do:
- graviga
- enspellgas
- aquaveilga
- strong DoT spells, tough can not stack
- aspirga
- drainga

Something you left off this -ga list. SCH/WHM can AoE all the -na spells you get from /WHM. Not only that but they can do it on PTs they are not a member of. While WHM can do this to their own PT, they cannot do it w/ the speed of SCH. @70 we can do it 3x every 12min. That can completely remove the status from an entire alliance every 12 min. A WHM that doesn't have DS meritted can only do their PT 1x every 15min. Combine that with AoE'ing Pro/Shell 4, and in an alliance SCH can(and I emphasize "can") actually outshine a WHM.

[Toth]

Any other SCHS have any luck on getting Helices to do respectable damage on HNMs? With +50 INT and 286 elemental skill, I kept getting 1s on Genbu...

[Enygma55]

The base dmg on Helices are too low to do any kind of respecitible dmg on anything higher than your general lower LV Jeuno HNMs. The job isnt designed for high lv stuff like Gods. If you have a problem using blms to deal consistant dmg, dont bother using SCH for dmg.

[ronin sparthos]

To be fair, they probably expect you to use Manifestation with Alacrity, so the uselessness comes back to charge issues.

Frankly, the best idea I've heard here was make the 4 minute recast recharge all charges instead of just the one. IMO, at lvl 10, they should give you 2 charges and only give 1 if you're subbing, then you should get more charges at 30, 50, & 70, for a total of 5 for SCH and 2 for sub. That way, non-SCH could get a taste of the system while SCH mains could customize spells more actively and strategically, as was advertized. A SCH should be using strats on multiple spells from the very beginning, not half-way down the line.

The Stratagem effects themselves are fine for the most part, the only one that should definitely be changed is Ebullience (it should be +50% potency to match Rapture). A 5th Strat at lvl 70 seems to be inevitable, to level spacing is set up for it. Only question is what would it be?

Level 70 stratagems? Light Arts could be 'Doublecast' where you can cast 2 spells for the price of 1 spell or you could have it where you can cast one spell then the following spell costs half the normal cost and is casted instantly.

Dark Arts could be a stratagem that simply allows you to combine the weather effect spells with your tier 3 nukes to produce a tier 4 and with the cases of Light and Dark weathers a simple bump up from Raise -> Raise II and Aspir -> Aspir II.

I agree with the fact that SCH subbed at least should give 2 charges.

[Gilthas]

unique things a scholar can do:
- graviga
- enspellgas
- aquaveilga
- strong DoT spells, tough can not stack
- aspirga
- drainga

Something you left off this -ga list. SCH/WHM can AoE all the -na spells you get from /WHM. Not only that but they can do it on PTs they are not a member of. While WHM can do this to their own PT, they cannot do it w/ the speed of SCH. @70 we can do it 3x every 12min. That can completely remove the status from an entire alliance every 12 min. A WHM that doesn't have DS meritted can only do their PT 1x every 15min. Combine that with AoE'ing Pro/Shell 4, and in an alliance SCH can(and I emphasize "can") actually outshine a WHM.

Divine Seal is 10 minutes.

Realistically you probably wouldn't be saving stratagem charges for na spells anyway, add to that that if a mob is spamming AoE enfeebles (which is like probably all the mobs that matter anyway) you'd run out of charges pretty fast. Unless you're zerging something in the long run a WHM would serve you better.

[TeancumMemsochet]

unique things a scholar can do:
- graviga
- enspellgas
- aquaveilga
- strong DoT spells, tough can not stack
- aspirga
- drainga

Something you left off this -ga list. SCH/WHM can AoE all the -na spells you get from /WHM. Not only that but they can do it on PTs they are not a member of. While WHM can do this to their own PT, they cannot do it w/ the speed of SCH. @70 we can do it 3x every 12min. That can completely remove the status from an entire alliance every 12 min. A WHM that doesn't have DS meritted can only do their PT 1x every 15min. Combine that with AoE'ing Pro/Shell 4, and in an alliance SCH can(and I emphasize "can") actually outshine a WHM.

Divine Seal is 10 minutes.

Realistically you probably wouldn't be saving stratagem charges for na spells anyway, add to that that if a mob is spamming AoE enfeebles (which is like probably all the mobs that matter anyway) you'd run out of charges pretty fast. Unless you're zerging something in the long run a WHM would serve you better.

True. But while I haven't done much HNM fights, I do remember being outside WHM in sky trying to paralyna or silena the alliance, and what a pain the ass that was trying to figure out who had/hadn't been cast on.

[Gilthas]

unique things a scholar can do:
- graviga
- enspellgas
- aquaveilga
- strong DoT spells, tough can not stack
- aspirga
- drainga

Something you left off this -ga list. SCH/WHM can AoE all the -na spells you get from /WHM. Not only that but they can do it on PTs they are not a member of. While WHM can do this to their own PT, they cannot do it w/ the speed of SCH. @70 we can do it 3x every 12min. That can completely remove the status from an entire alliance every 12 min. A WHM that doesn't have DS meritted can only do their PT 1x every 15min. Combine that with AoE'ing Pro/Shell 4, and in an alliance SCH can(and I emphasize "can") actually outshine a WHM.

Divine Seal is 10 minutes.

Realistically you probably wouldn't be saving stratagem charges for na spells anyway, add to that that if a mob is spamming AoE enfeebles (which is like probably all the mobs that matter anyway) you'd run out of charges pretty fast. Unless you're zerging something in the long run a WHM would serve you better.

True. But while I haven't done much HNM fights, I do remember being outside WHM in sky trying to paralyna or silena the alliance, and what a pain the ass that was trying to figure out who had/hadn't been cast on.

And the same would happen with a SCH after the first 5 minutes, if that.

Seriously, people talk like you get infinite Stratagem charges.

[Miltani]

Any other SCHS have any luck on getting Helices to do respectable damage on HNMs? With +50 INT and 286 elemental skill, I kept getting 1s on Genbu...

Not HNMS but gods only
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3752/4godhelixip7.jpg

[Enygma55]

unique things a scholar can do:
- graviga
- enspellgas
- aquaveilga
- strong DoT spells, tough can not stack
- aspirga
- drainga

Something you left off this -ga list. SCH/WHM can AoE all the -na spells you get from /WHM. Not only that but they can do it on PTs they are not a member of. While WHM can do this to their own PT, they cannot do it w/ the speed of SCH. @70 we can do it 3x every 12min. That can completely remove the status from an entire alliance every 12 min. A WHM that doesn't have DS meritted can only do their PT 1x every 15min. Combine that with AoE'ing Pro/Shell 4, and in an alliance SCH can(and I emphasize "can") actually outshine a WHM.

Divine Seal is 10 minutes.

Realistically you probably wouldn't be saving stratagem charges for na spells anyway, add to that that if a mob is spamming AoE enfeebles (which is like probably all the mobs that matter anyway) you'd run out of charges pretty fast. Unless you're zerging something in the long run a WHM would serve you better.

True. But while I haven't done much HNM fights, I do remember being outside WHM in sky trying to paralyna or silena the alliance, and what a pain the ass that was trying to figure out who had/hadn't been cast on.

And the same would happen with a SCH after the first 5 minutes, if that.

Seriously, people talk like you get infinite Stratagem charges.

Once the timers drop down to a reasonable time ( and they will or the job will die ) This is a very viable use for SCH. Spamming AoE -na spells on everyone while outside an alliance is something worth having.

And those numbers on gods arnt as bad as people make it out to seem.

[bercus]

unique things a scholar can do:
- graviga
- enspellgas
- aquaveilga
- strong DoT spells, tough can not stack
- aspirga
- drainga

Something you left off this -ga list. SCH/WHM can AoE all the -na spells you get from /WHM. Not only that but they can do it on PTs they are not a member of.

Uhm Divine Veal does work on other parties too with -na spells. So nothing unique that a Scholar can do, beside maybe more often, but a waste of charges then imo. -na spells don´t really take long to cast too. For healing, no matter what you say, but WHM > SCH.

[Naramaska]

Any other SCHS have any luck on getting Helices to do respectable damage on HNMs? With +50 INT and 286 elemental skill, I kept getting 1s on Genbu...

Not HNMS but gods only
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3752/4godhelixip7.jpg

So basically...the damage CAN be good, but the resist rates are near-crippling? My (admittedly limited) experience as a BLM against gods is mostly "why the fuck does Genbu resist my Thunder IV more than Tiamat?", but considering the 120 damage Noctohelix on Byakko, there seems to be a good possibility for endgame SCH damage with the helixes.





(120 initial damage = 6 ticks of damage = 720 damage total?)

[whoami]

I think the max duration is 9 because a few weeks ago someone tested helixes in ballista did 44 intital damage and took 396 total so 9 tics -1 for inital so 8 tics with wether up max possible? so 120*9=1080 total fo77+27 mp cost (helix + wether) 104 mp so a 10.4 dmg/mp ratio there if duration is unresisted. Main issue i see with sch is getting enough elemental skill gear to reliably cast helix. Stacking elemental skill gear till 300-320 and then use int foods and a int etude or two if you got a brd or fenrir buff if smn for more int (on mage moon). Here's to hoping af will help bridge the gap to get to 300 reasonbly without hunting for hard to get elemental skill items (like sea cape). Also anyone else hoping that sch and dnc get added to sea/sky/salvage armors? I mean every job has sea/sky and salvage armor so it sch and dnc should be added eventually to them. All 18 jobs where on salvage armors when it was added and every job can get either sky/ground abjs or nashira/homam from sea.

[LD]

Divine Veal

http://www.goldengatemeatcompany.com...veal-photo.jpg

Mmmm, that's good baby cow!

But yea, listing -naga from outside ally as a selling point is just sad. SCH's ability to use strats has to be greatly enhanced for them to have a point. The idea was for the JAs to define the job, and you can't do that when you only have access to 3 of them every 12 minutes.

[Aquilla]

Any other SCHS have any luck on getting Helices to do respectable damage on HNMs? With +50 INT and 286 elemental skill, I kept getting 1s on Genbu...

Not HNMS but gods only
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3752/4godhelixip7.jpg

So basically...the damage CAN be good, but the resist rates are near-crippling? My (admittedly limited) experience as a BLM against gods is mostly "why the fuck does Genbu resist my Thunder IV more than Tiamat?", but considering the 120 damage Noctohelix on Byakko, there seems to be a good possibility for endgame SCH damage with the helixes.





(120 initial damage = 6 ticks of damage = 720 damage total?)

Thats pretty weak, imho... I do gods as blm almost exclusively, and 1500+ MBs are fairly common on everything except byakko _._; Even w/out MB, a reasonable nuke can hit 1k, and the resist rates w/ full merits aren't all that bothersome.

Kind of a stupid question, i'm sure, but would MBing make it do more dmg? _._;

anyway, i'm also hoping for a big boost from AF, and hopefully it gets zenith soon >.>;

[kenshyn]

Really not weak if you consider the value of pretty much low hate and mp vs damage efficiency in my book....

[Miltani]

I believe helix have high hate spike. Was able to pull hate from blm at pudding camp. Might be good if someone can proof me wrong

[Fors]

Well played Sch 75 in a few Hnms and Sea, helixes wasnt that big of a deal, if i didnt get resisted n waste the mp I land a good one n Modus it. I really dont feel flexible either because of penalty. And 3 charges is definetly not enough to be greatly effective in the Ally, trying to keep storms up is a bitch cause of there Accesion downtime.

I really hope SE boost this job or I'm gonna keep going rdm to most events.

[Toth]

Yeah, that's the general consensus from us 75 SCHs

[Wilimac]

Indeed, I really hope they tweak the job during the mar update.