WotG Storyline Discussion (Spoilers)

[Yutuyu]

k thanks for clearing that up. I love the Zilart (not the expansion, the race) history and everything to do with them ^^ it's just all so god awful confusing at some points. SE is awfully vague at times.

I couldn't agree more. SE even outright contradicts itself many times. All of what we know pretty much is from third party sources, almost no primary. So little is known about the gods and it's just irritating trying to figure out what is going on at times.

I really want to beat apocalypse nigh so I can find out just how their story ends (I've been told it's very conclusive) because even though we already have the "waking the beasts" quest, I can't help but wonder if there's room for a Zilart/Avatar based expansion.

You know, the 8 prime avatars (yes, even Odin and Alex again) awakening and attempting to make the mothercrystal whole again (thus bringing in the Zilart and possibly even Al'tieu since Sehl'teus is still watching guard over the 5th crystal)

Interestingly, if the prime avatars were to awaken, it's not really clear what they'd do. Supposedly after the Meltdown they awoke and restored the devastated land to some degree (basing this off of Louverance Path cutscenes in CoP 5-3), so it's not that they will necessarily attempt to reunite the Crystal if given the chance. They seem to understand the purpose and necessity behind its division.

While it's highly unlikely that there's much truth to them, the avatar stories all reference Altana as the giver of their powers. This might actually be based on truth. It could be that Altana, when splitting the Crystal, also created the Protocrystals as points of connection between the Astral Planes of energy and Vana'diel, then created Guardians for each point.

What I still don't get is, if Al'tieu was in another dimension within the crystal (damn paradoxes) then how the hell did he even get there? Was the great meltdown what drained him and the other avatars (well, save Fenrir and Carby) of their power? Why exactly are the zilart in that weird state of theirs...

Al'Taieu was originally part of Vana'diel. Then the Crystal unification plan of the Zilart began. When the Crystals were almost whole, there was an attack planned (by the Kuluu, Dawnmaidens, and Terrestrials) on various key points of the Zilartian Infrastructure. It's unknown whether Fei'Yin was an attack point within and of itself or maybe an attack point related to Al'Taieu (perhaps something have to do with its sinking?).

Either way, it was then Al'Taieu first physically sunk into the ocean and then was seperated from the rest of the dimension somehow. Bahamut might've had something to do with its seperation, it could've been Al'Taieu itself, or maybe even something Yve'Noile/Sehl'Teus did. Either way, Sehl'Teus was already there with Bahamut during it all when the Palace was sealed away.

Come to think of it, the sealing might've even had something to do with the Zilartian King's extreme paranoia against the Kuluu, I recall something about him sealing off Al'Taieu from them as a matter of precaution, not sure though. That Zilartian device (if it exists) could've been used to seperate it from the rest of the world?

I'd kill for an expansion that was about the Zilart rebuilding their civilization (not the crazy scheme the 2 princes had) and actually having a new zilart nation in the skies.


Sorry for the WotG derail ^^;

Tu'Lia took a tremendous amount of energy and effort to create and maintain. It was also one-of-a-kind. It's unlikely they actually had any other floating cities, and definitely impossible for them to make one in modern-day Vana'diel with the resources they have access to.

If you think about it, the dukes sort of saw it as rebuilding their culture and city during the refining of Jeuno, but it was a temporary arrangement for them, they obviously always had other matters in the back of their mind.

I could never see the Zilart coming out in the open though. They'd probably be destroyed by the prejudice and fear of the other races. Think of how badly they treated each other for a long time; now imagine a race appears which is clearly superior to all of them.

[Khamsin]

Interestingly, if the prime avatars were to awaken, it's not really clear what they'd do. Supposedly after the Meltdown they awoke and restored the devastated land to some degree (basing this off of Louverance Path cutscenes in CoP 5-3), so it's not that they will necessarily attempt to reunite the Crystal if given the chance. They seem to understand the purpose and necessity behind its division.

Plus, the avatars themselves have a taste of what "humanity" is like and may even feel compassion for the people of Vana'diel, due to the glimpses of the world they get whenever all the summoners summon them. Perhaps, due to this, they'll be less inclined to tear the world apart when they awaken (which seems to be accelerated also due to all the summoning).

[Xali]

Bits of ranting and theories.
-Cait Sith doesn't seem at all worried about the presence of Atomos in his dimension. It's possible that Cait Sith and Atomos are working hand-in-hand. This leads to the possibility that their plans may be malicious, and we may end up fighting them towards the end of the story (possibly inside Atomos, which'd kinda be cool to fight an Atomos "core").

-I don't think the Champions of Dawn have been revealed to us yet, nor are they people we know about so far.

-As I've said before, Shadow Lord might be a boss. Not the final boss, and probably not even a boss at all. It's possible we get to the Throne Room right as Volker and crew are finishing him off, and we fight some other malicious force.

-It's been stated the expansion will have about as many areas as the original game. This means if they want to add new areas, they have to cut out some old ones, but let's look at some that seem to be already out. Like both Horutoto Ruins, who's entrances are blocked off by gates. Or Crag zones (and by proxy, Buburimu and Valkurm), which may not even be used now that we have new links to the city areas (Fort KN, etc.).

-I don't think the bandaged taru has any malicious intentions. His only appearance so far has him protecting you from the taurs.

[Malacite]

I'd still like to see Esha'ntarl lead her people out of Jeuno to rebuild their civilization in peace. She'd make a good Queen for them I'd think ^^


Also, I'm pretty sure the avatars would try to restore Vana'diel. Otherwise, why would their awakening cause Carbuncle and the other Terrestrial Avatars (who unlike the Celestial, were born from Vana'diel and can not exist in Paradise) be so afraid of want to prevent them from coming back?

[Rocl]

I'd still like to see Esha'ntarl lead her people out of Jeuno to rebuild their civilization in peace. She'd make a good Queen for them I'd think ^^


Also, I'm pretty sure the avatars would try to restore Vana'diel. Otherwise, why would their awakening cause Carbuncle and the other Terrestrial Avatars (who unlike the Celestial, were born from Vana'diel and can not exist in Paradise) be so afraid of want to prevent them from coming back?

That's why. Perhaps the Terrestials don't want to revert to their "lower" forms.

[BRP]

I'd still like to see Esha'ntarl lead her people out of Jeuno to rebuild their civilization in peace. She'd make a good Queen for them I'd think ^^

The Zilart are "evil" as they want nothing less than to end the world and reunite the Crystals. That's basically their motivation and purpose in life. Esha'ntarl(btw, the Zilart are not "her" people) at the end of the storyline basically says she'll watch the organization to make sure they do not threaten Vana'diel. Another Zilart city would be another area to fight bad guys, that simple.

[Yutuyu]

The Zilart are evil in the same way that many San d'Orians are, they seek paradise directly, wanting to reach heaven without waiting to die and wading through life essentially. They believing uniting the Crystal will bring about a better age, I wouldn't really call them "evil" just misguided.

With the princes gone, the remaining Zilart might actually let go of their dreams.

Easha'Ntarl's people would be the Kuluu actually, she was one originally before her trip to the chamber of Eventide. Now that would be interesting to see, some of the Tonberries converting back...

[Zak]

Easha'Ntarl's people would be the Kuluu actually, she was one originally before her trip to the chamber of Eventide. Now that would be interesting to see, some of the Tonberries converting back...

The Kuulu/Tonberry plot is another interesting point. The "official" version is, that the meltdown transformed the surviving Kuulu into Tonberrys. But imo that's only part of the truth. Easha'ntarl and Nag'molada are Kuulu and haven't transformed. Isn't it mentioned in one of the CoP CSs that only those Kuulu who made the pact with Diablolos transformed into Tonberrys? iirc the transformation was the outcome of Diablols cleaning their souls from the emptiness. And Grav'iton mentions in another CS to Sel'theus, that they already made a sin which would make it impossible for them to join him in his plan.

[Yutuyu]

Easha'Ntarl's people would be the Kuluu actually, she was one originally before her trip to the chamber of Eventide. Now that would be interesting to see, some of the Tonberries converting back...

The Kuulu/Tonberry plot is another interesting point. The "official" version is, that the meltdown transformed the surviving Kuulu into Tonberrys. But imo that's only part of the truth. Easha'ntarl and Nag'molada are Kuulu and haven't transformed. Isn't it mentioned in one of the CoP CSs that only those Kuulu who made the pact with Diablolos transformed into Tonberrys? iirc the transformation was the outcome of Diablols cleaning their souls from the emptiness. And Grav'iton mentions in another CS to Sel'theus, that they already made a sin which would make it impossible for them to join him in his plan.

Yeah, dead on. Pretty sure them transforming as "part of the meltdown" was complete and utter bull. We know they were in Windurst and built the Horutoto and even passed on some of the secrets of magic to the Tarutaru.

I'm guessing the transformation was a result of their reliance on Diabolos, those who weren't part of the collective at that point weren't affected by him, and it took a long time to complete. So during their gradual devolution into Tonberries they did what they could to leave behind a trace of their civilization and to "pass on the torch."

[Rocl]

Easha'Ntarl's people would be the Kuluu actually, she was one originally before her trip to the chamber of Eventide. Now that would be interesting to see, some of the Tonberries converting back...

The Kuulu/Tonberry plot is another interesting point. The "official" version is, that the meltdown transformed the surviving Kuulu into Tonberrys. But imo that's only part of the truth. Easha'ntarl and Nag'molada are Kuulu and haven't transformed. Isn't it mentioned in one of the CoP CSs that only those Kuulu who made the pact with Diablolos transformed into Tonberrys? iirc the transformation was the outcome of Diablols cleaning their souls from the emptiness. And Grav'iton mentions in another CS to Sel'theus, that they already made a sin which would make it impossible for them to join him in his plan.

Yeah, dead on. Pretty sure them transforming as "part of the meltdown" was complete and utter bull. We know they were in Windurst and built the Horutoto and even passed on some of the secrets of magic to the Tarutaru.

I'm guessing the transformation was a result of their reliance on Diabolos, those who weren't part of the collective at that point weren't affected by him, and it took a long time to complete. So during their gradual devolution into Tonberries they did what they could to leave behind a trace of their civilization and to "pass on the torch."

Where was this said? I'm always very interested in the "science" behind magic, haha. That's an oxymoron if I've ever seen one. >_>

[Septimus]

Easha'Ntarl's people would be the Kuluu actually, she was one originally before her trip to the chamber of Eventide. Now that would be interesting to see, some of the Tonberries converting back...

The Kuulu/Tonberry plot is another interesting point. The "official" version is, that the meltdown transformed the surviving Kuulu into Tonberrys. But imo that's only part of the truth. Easha'ntarl and Nag'molada are Kuulu and haven't transformed. Isn't it mentioned in one of the CoP CSs that only those Kuulu who made the pact with Diablolos transformed into Tonberrys? iirc the transformation was the outcome of Diablols cleaning their souls from the emptiness. And Grav'iton mentions in another CS to Sel'theus, that they already made a sin which would make it impossible for them to join him in his plan.

I am going to guess that Esha'ntarl, Nag'molada, and the rest of the Armathrwn Society were in Delkfutt's Tower with Kam'lanaut and Eald'narche during the Meltdown, thusly were protected from the after effects of the Meltdown and slept until Raogrimm touched the Vazhl crystal and woke them. Selh'teus was in Al'Taieu when it split from our reality, so chances are that is what protected him from being transformed. (Although Selh'teus's pact with the avatars may have protected him were he not in Al'Taieu.)

Yeah, dead on. Pretty sure them transforming as "part of the meltdown" was complete and utter bull. We know they were in Windurst and built the Horutoto and even passed on some of the secrets of magic to the Tarutaru.

I'm guessing the transformation was a result of their reliance on Diabolos, those who weren't part of the collective at that point weren't affected by him, and it took a long time to complete. So during their gradual devolution into Tonberries they did what they could to leave behind a trace of their civilization and to "pass on the torch."

Grav'tion is the one who said that the Meltdown changed the Kuluu into the Tonberries. I would think that she is a very credible source.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Upon looking at various quotes relating to the matter:

Those Kuluu who survived the happenings of that day fled here. However, the power of the crystals left its mark on us. As time passed, our bodies and minds degenerated into the form you see standing before you. We do not regret our actions. It was a small sacrifice to save Vana'diel. What will happen, happens. One can sit and ponder over what could have been, but that would only be a waste of time. We must move on. The world belongs to all who reside on its fertile soil. We could not let it be transformed into a mere playground for the Gods. However, when I learned that Delkfutt's Tower remained unchanged even after the accident, I could sense that something was amiss. At that moment, I know our fight was not yet over. Heed my words, young adventurer. Thou must travel to the small island of Zepwell, located to the southwest of Bastok. There thou will find remains of an ancient temple. There thou must join the eight fragments of light. Only then will the Dawnmaidens show thee the path thou must follow. The fragments can be found embedded in eight stone monuments located in remote areas of Vana'diel. As to their precise whereabouts, that is for thee to discover. My time has passed. There is nothing more I can do but stand back and watch as this drama unfolds. Ah, yes. There is one more thing I must tell thee. Beware of the elder prince of the Zilart. The bond he has formed with the crystals is great. His magic is truly powerful. He has already crossed the boundaries of man and stepped into the forbidden realm of the gods. Thou must be careful. I will not pray for thy success, as it is not prayer that will lead thee to victory. Thou will do what thou must to overcome this great evil. Here is the first fragment to start thee on thy journey. Now, be off! There is not much time.

The "power of the crystals" sounds vague enough that makes me think that they put that so it can easily be manipulated in case they want something else to be the cause of the transformation. And since the terrestrial avatars seem to be the result of the crystal's will split, Diabolos's powers can be seen as the powers of the crystals, no?

Lord Diabolos! Is there any way to break these chains that bind us?

There is...one way...
Long ago, remnants of the Kuluu came to me and asked me to release them from the chains of Promathia.

I did as they asked...
However, the result was tragic. The Kuluu lost their original selves...

Uh, I think I just put this here for referrence.

Mortals are an incomplete species. When Eald'narche's quest for Paradise was thwarted, life on this planet lost its perfection.
Particularly, thine inability to communicate with others of thy race casts a shadow over thy development.
This inability became increasingly evident after the Meltdown divided thee into the five races.
The arrogance of the Elvaan, the envy of the Mithra, the cowardice of the Tarutaru, the apathy of the Humes, and the rage of the Galka... These are the traits thou must carry as thou makes thy journey through life.

Not directly related to the topic at hand, but this leads me to belive that both the Zilart AND the Kuluu became the five races of people through the Meltdown, since the 5 are basically Kuluu divided, and Kuluu are basically Zilart without the whisper of souls.

[Khamsin]

Grav'tion is the one who said that the Meltdown changed the Kuluu into the Tonberries. I would think that she is a very credible source.

Was Gravi'ton Berrisacci around when the original tonberries were created, or did he come after?

[Sagacious Sundi]

Grav'tion is the one who said that the Meltdown changed the Kuluu into the Tonberries. I would think that she is a very credible source.

Was Gravi'ton Berrisacci around when the original tonberries were created, or did he come after?

I'm pretty sure Grav'iton is seen (in Kuluu form) with Eald/Kam/Yve in the past. I'm also pretty sure that she's a she.

[Zak]

Maybe there is more to the transformation then we know (or being told). Maybe the physical transformation was caused by the radiation of the meltdown, and the mental transformation was caused by Diablols cleaning them from emptiness.
Diabolos refers to the "remnants of the Kuulu", so it seems they came to him somewhere after the meltdown.
"the power of the crystals left its mark on us" is a general term that could mean anything. imo it just sais, that the transformation was somehow caused by the events 10.000 years ago, but without being specific. The cs where Grav'iton explains the origin of the Tonberrys is the first time we see her and at the time this cs was added to the game, the whole "chains that bind us" and "emptiness" plot was not yet released.

[Yutuyu]

As far as I know, there's another theory that's out there about this too.

Half of the Tonberries (those still in Pso'Xja) are the ones Diabolos transformed (Cryptonberries) and the other half who left (those who eventually ended up in Ugga) had their transformation caused gradually overtime by the Meltdown.

Personally I don't believe it, I think Diabolos is responsible for it all, and "power of the crystals" was left blank because at that time we didn't even know Diabolos existed.

[Apelila]

So, not to derail the current speculating / reliving of the Zilart / Promathia storylines, but a thought occurred to me today.

This is pure conjecture based on what we know about the present and have thus far seen in the past, but the werei and gumbah relationship has me wondering if its going to have any interesting undertones.

They where apparently very close in the past.
They live together until Werei's Journey of rebirth.

I realize that this has the flimsiest of connections; but given how many non hume/taru characters are shown in relationships it does make me wonder if their friendship is going to have a 'strong' undertone.

[Zak]

I realize that this has the flimsiest of connections; but given how many non hume/taru characters are shown in relationships it does make me wonder if their friendship is going to have a 'strong' undertone.

Even though the playerbase sees Galka as male, they are asexual in the storyline. So they won't have any sexual relationships, if that is what you mean with "interesting". There is the "An Undying Pledge" quest in Norg, that also shows a deep freindship between two Galka.
Some of them seem to act more like males and others more female though. I had a laugh when i saw that one of the Lillies (Halloween event) is a Galka. And the Galka Dancer in Jeuno still gives me the creeps.

They where apparently very close in the past.
They live together until Werei's Journey of rebirth.

They are both shown as adults in the past, but when Werei goest on his rebirth journey in the present, Gumbah is already a youth again.

[Apelila]

I realize that this has the flimsiest of connections; but given how many non hume/taru characters are shown in relationships it does make me wonder if their friendship is going to have a 'strong' undertone.

Even though the playerbase sees Galka as male, they are asexual in the storyline.

Um, your aware of why Cornelia sacraficed herself for Raogrimm right? Hint: It wasn't because they where such good friends. There are also random galka who talk about their wives in other quests places. So no, they're not asexual. I'll let someone else dig up the interview where SE said as much.

I doubt that anything past the point of speculation would be put in the game, I guess I just like the idea of a friendship/whatever they have transcending death/rebirth and hope it doesn't get mired down with some bullshit.

[Septimus]

As far as I know, there's another theory that's out there about this too.

Half of the Tonberries (those still in Pso'Xja) are the ones Diabolos transformed (Cryptonberries) and the other half who left (those who eventually ended up in Ugga) had their transformation caused gradually overtime by the Meltdown.

Personally I don't believe it, I think Diabolos is responsible for it all, and "power of the crystals" was left blank because at that time we didn't even know Diabolos existed.

So, what you are saying that the text in the game written by the developers and "spoken" by the characters that "lived" it is wrong? Even though Diabolos was not in the game at the time, that does not mean that he wouldn't have been mentioned by name, title, or even alluded to by metaphor (like the Mirrors of Blessed Radiance and Blighted Gloom in the Fellowship quests alluding to Alexander and Odin as the two huge players in ToAU) if his presence caused such a huge impact.

And what motive would Diabolos have to transform the Kuluu into the Tonberry? He has demonstrated that his goals are benevolent-ish, transforming the Kuluu into vicious monsters is less than.

Unless someone can show some text where Diabolos is all "yeah, I transformed them" I am going to believe the text from the Grav'tion cutscene as cannon.

So, not to derail the current speculating / reliving of the Zilart / Promathia storylines, but a thought occurred to me today.

This is pure conjecture based on what we know about the present and have thus far seen in the past, but the werei and gumbah relationship has me wondering if its going to have any interesting undertones.

They where apparently very close in the past.
They live together until Werei's Journey of rebirth.

I realize that this has the flimsiest of connections; but given how many non hume/taru characters are shown in relationships it does make me wonder if their friendship is going to have a 'strong' undertone.

I doubt it. The Gumbah/Werei relationship is a unique one though. It seems that Galka pair relationships seem to be more father/son-ish where a mature Galka will take in one who just came back from his Journey of Rebirth, eventually when the older one sets off on his Journey of Rebirth the younger one will take care of him when he gets back and so on. (At least as this is what I gathered from the limited literature on the subject.) There are exceptions to the rule, like Raogrimm and Deidogg. (There may be a reason for it, but it would involve plot details from Bastok missions.)

But on the other hand, it has been shown that Galkas do form romantic relationships. And we all know that the Altep Continent was the world's largest sausage party before the Galka migrated to Quon...