WotG Storyline Discussion (Spoilers)

[Sagacious Sundi]

Looks like some people refuse to believe cold hard facts from SE.

Can you quote them saying Galka do not have certain organs? I recall them coming from the Zilart, who most certainly did.

God we're horrifyingly nerdy, talking about genitals of fictional video game characters.

Is there a penis.dat or whatnot?

I thought the 5 races were aspects of the crystal, not descendants of the Zilart.

According to Yve'noile, they are:

Mortals are an incomplete species. When Eald'narche's quest for Paradise was thwarted, life on this planet lost its perfection.
Particularly, thine inability to communicate with others of thy race casts a shadow over thy development.
This inability became increasingly evident after the Meltdown divided thee into the five races.
The arrogance of the Elvaan, the envy of the Mithra, the cowardice of the Tarutaru, the apathy of the Humes, and the rage of the Galka... These are the traits thou must carry as thou makes thy journey through life.

Well, at least that's what I got out of it.

[Siniroth]

That makes sense too >_>

[Tarage]

How did we go from "OMG CAITSITH!" to "Do Galka have pen0rs?"

[Apelila]

I posed that Gumbah and Werei may have a deeper friendship than just 'bestest friends forever' and everyone decided to start talking about dicks. Welcome to the internet. But hey, we tied it to the Zilart eventually, even if the result was still talking about dicks.

[Septimus]

And the quote about the Kuluu being freed from the chains was most likely about the Chamber of Eventide removing their Emptiness allowing some like Esha'ntarl regain the whisper of souls and immortality. Didn't they have to stop that because their displaced Emptiness started to affect the Mother Crystals? (Otherwise known as negative results.)

Lord Diabolos! Is there any way to break these chains that bind us?

There is...one way...
Long ago, remnants of the Kuluu came to me and asked me to release them from the chains of Promathia.
I did as they asked...
However, the result was tragic. The Kuluu lost their original selves...

Man, I really hate to be this guy but... LEARN TO READ.

Oddly enough, I do know how to read.

A fantastic amount of energy was drained from the crystals and focused into Tu'Lia. However, while this was taking place, we Kuluu led an attack on the northernmost ark and destroyed it, putting an end to their abominable plan.

Unfortunately, this act caused the crystals to spin out of control. The world was engulfed in a blinding light, and the Zilart were destroyed.

The land where the Zilart resided sank to the abyssal depths of the sea, while the overwhelming power of the crystals laid waste to the Northlands, leaving them uninhabitable.

Those Kuluu who survived the happenings of that day fled here. However, the power of the crystals left its mark on us. As time passed, our bodies and minds degenerated into the form you see standing before you.

We do not regret our actions.

It was a small sacrifice to save Vana'diel.

Let's see, "Diabolos"? Nope, nary a word of him. "Ruler of Dynamis"? Not mentioned. "An avatar", nothing even remotely similar.

Just exposure to the power of the crystals, no mention of any other outside forces. It is a stunningly unambiguous statement.

Diabolos made an appearance (as a voice at least) in RotZ at the end of Dynamis - Xarcabard, so it's not like the character was not conceived yet.

[Zak]

A fantastic amount of energy was drained from the crystals and focused into Tu'Lia. However, while this was taking place, we Kuluu led an attack on the northernmost ark and destroyed it, putting an end to their abominable plan.

They destroyed the Vhazel Crag.

Unfortunately, this act caused the crystals to spin out of control. The world was engulfed in a blinding light, and the Zilart were destroyed.

The meltdown. The Zilart were not destroyed though. Grav'iton is already lieing/simplifying here.

The land where the Zilart resided sank to the abyssal depths of the sea, while the overwhelming power of the crystals laid waste to the Northlands, leaving them uninhabitable.

The meltdown of the Vhazel crystal made the Northlands uninhabitable. The reason for the Zilarts land drowning is not even touched here, because that is part of the CoP addon.

Those Kuluu who survived the happenings of that day fled here. However, the power of the crystals left its mark on us. As time passed, our bodies and minds degenerated into the form you see standing before you.

You have a point here. But why do you ignore what Diabolos himself sais in the CoP CSs about the Kuulu? It's possible that the radiation caused the physical degeneration and Diabolos cleaning them from emptiness caused them to degenerate mentally. Or maybe the radiation story was totally bogus and it was all Diabolos doing. The CSs are more then vague in that point. Why would immortal Grav'iton reveal the sins of her race to a mortal stranger she mets for the first time (us)? Diabolos mentions that he was "born" in the depths of Pso'xja. Maybe that is the "sin" Grav'iton is talking about to Sel'theus? I'm only speculating now, but that is the fun part about this discussion. There are enough open ends in the FFXI storylines to speculate about.

Let's see, "Diabolos"? Nope, nary a word of him. "Ruler of Dynamis"? Not mentioned. "An avatar", nothing even remotely similar.

Because at that time not even Northlands Dynamis was released? There are many storylines in FFXI that take a complete turnaround with later addons. Just think about the Shadow Lord for example: First he was the Supervillian, then he was a misguided tool and who knows what WoTG will reveal?

[Xanthe]

stuff

And this is where I see the difference between Tonberry and Cryptonberry. I believe that Tonberries are those that transformed as a result of the meltdown, while Cryptonberries are those that turned to Diabolos to be released from their chains and consequently "lost their original selves". In short, you're both right.

[Yutuyu]

Septimus, how do you get off completely ignoring what Diabolos says? In the quote he clearly states that the Kuluu came to him asking to be "freed from the chains" (cleansed of their emptiness) and as a result, they lost their former selves. What else could it mean?

You say it has to do with the chamber of Eventide possibly, but that makes no sense whatsoever. The Chamber of Eventide was a Dawnmaiden/Zilartian creation in the capital which was definitely closed off to the Terrestrial Avatars.

Until you can propose an explaination for what Diabolos says, how can you say that he didn't transform them? He is a Terrestrial avatar linked to the Crystals, a guardian of the mortal world. The "Power of the Crystals" could most definitely be a reference to his power. There's simply no way to prove that Grav'tion was not talking about Diabolos, and Diabolos personally takes responsibility for the transformation of the Kuluu.

The only possible explaination for what you're claiming is the one Xanthe mentioned. That explaination simply cannot be argued away; it is entirely possible that the Cryptonberries are the ones he transformed. However it is also possible that all of the Tonberries were transformed by Diabolos. The only option here that's not possible is that Diabolos played no role whatsoever in the transformation of the Kuluu, which is your claim.

And actually the Emptiness being cleansed by both Diabolos' power and the Meltdown makes sense if you think about it. The power of the Crystals cleanses you in CoP at the top of the five towers.

[Zak]

And actually the Emptiness being cleansed by both Diabolos' power and the Meltdown makes sense if you think about it. The power of the Crystals cleanses you in CoP at the top of the five towers.

That would also explain why Tonberrys and Cryptonberrys both have the same physical and mental manifestation. It wouldn't matter how they got rid of the emptiness, the results for the Kuulu race were the same. The chamber of Eventide seems to work in a different way though.

[Septimus]

A fantastic amount of energy was drained from the crystals and focused into Tu'Lia. However, while this was taking place, we Kuluu led an attack on the northernmost ark and destroyed it, putting an end to their abominable plan.

They destroyed the Vhazel Crag.

[quotemjm8ilj]Unfortunately, this act caused the crystals to spin out of control. The world was engulfed in a blinding light, and the Zilart were destroyed.

The meltdown. The Zilart were not destroyed though. Grav'iton is already lieing/simplifying here.[/quotemjm8ilj]

Later on in the text she mentions the elder Zilart Prince, meaning that she knows that not all of the Zilart died in the meltdown. But their civilization and way of life was destroyed.

The land where the Zilart resided sank to the abyssal depths of the sea, while the overwhelming power of the crystals laid waste to the Northlands, leaving them uninhabitable.

The meltdown of the Vhazel crystal made the Northlands uninhabitable. The reason for the Zilarts land drowning is not even touched here, because that is part of the CoP addon.

Since Al'Taieu vanishing from this dimension was not something that she witnessed first-hand, it is easy to let this one slide.

Those Kuluu who survived the happenings of that day fled here. However, the power of the crystals left its mark on us. As time passed, our bodies and minds degenerated into the form you see standing before you.

You have a point here. But why do you ignore what Diabolos himself sais in the CoP CSs about the Kuulu? It's possible that the radiation caused the physical degeneration and Diabolos cleaning them from emptiness caused them to degenerate mentally. Or maybe the radiation story was totally bogus and it was all Diabolos doing. The CSs are more then vague in that point. Why would immortal Grav'iton reveal the sins of her race to a mortal stranger she mets for the first time (us)? Diabolos mentions that he was "born" in the depths of Pso'xja. Maybe that is the "sin" Grav'iton is talking about to Sel'theus? I'm only speculating now, but that is the fun part about this discussion. There are enough open ends in the FFXI storylines to speculate about.

Why do I ingore what Diabolos said? Because Grav'iton is very clear about what happened, while he is not. She said that the power of the crystal was responsible for the degeneration of both their bodies and minds. Yve'noile later reveals that the same radiation from the meltdown that caused the Kuluu to change into the Tonberries caused the Zilart to change into the Humes, Elvaans, Tarutarus, Mithras, and Galkas.

As for why she would tell us everything about the meltdown, although causing the meltdown had terrible consequences it was wholly necessary; she does not regret their actions since it was a small sacrifice to save Vana'diel.

Let's see, "Diabolos"? Nope, nary a word of him. "Ruler of Dynamis"? Not mentioned. "An avatar", nothing even remotely similar.

Because at that time not even Northlands Dynamis was released? There are many storylines in FFXI that take a complete turnaround with later addons. Just think about the Shadow Lord for example: First he was the Supervillian, then he was a misguided tool and who knows what WoTG will reveal?

They have the plot for the expansion completed before it is released. I knew within two weeks of ToAU that Alexander was going to be involved from the tiny hints dropped by NPCs. The Shadowlord was always a tragic figure, we just didn't know this until Zeid revealed his identity to us and we found out that the seeds of nearly all of the tragedy in Vana'diel were sewn 30 years ago in Xarcabard.

[Lordshin]

hmmm correct me if i'm wrong.. but werent Cryptonberries created by diabolos and tonberries created by the radiation....
i'm pretty sure those were two unrelated events....
So arguing about Ignoring Diabolos and such is pointless? lol

Also... about the whole Space-Time thing...
Did Nag'Molada say specifically that it was Bahamut that controlled it... because i remember hims saying something along the lines of: "The Terrestrial(can be replaced with Bahamut i guess) avatars have the means to control time and space"
Which would mean he has something that controls it, or another Terrestrial Avatar exists, or there are more types of avatars related to the terrestrials...
Which opens up the possibilty of Cait Sith and/or Atomos of being avatars maybe Dimensional, Spacial or Temporal or possibly Terrestrial too?
I can See SE pulling something like : 5 Terrestrial Avatars chose to Guard the Mother crystals and a few went off to do something else..

and also... werent the Terrestrial Avatars a mutation from something too?

[Gilthas]

Mortals are an incomplete species. When Eald'narche's quest for Paradise was thwarted, life on this planet lost its perfection.
Particularly, thine inability to communicate with others of thy race casts a shadow over thy development.
This inability became increasingly evident after the Meltdown divided thee into the five races.
The arrogance of the Elvaan, the envy of the Mithra, the cowardice of the Tarutaru, the apathy of the Humes, and the rage of the Galka... These are the traits thou must carry as thou makes thy journey through life.

Personally, this doesn't seem like Yve'noile is saying that the 5 races are descended from the Zilart/Kuluu, it looks more to me that there was some other mortal life form at the time. But its highly debateable.

[Kyreth]

Is it bad to say the WoTG storyline is so thin we've gone to CoP for discussion material instead?

Rerailing. Anyone gotten Pashow/M. Mountains/Batallia under control? If so, which NPC's show up?

[Septimus]

Septimus, how do you get off completely ignoring what Diabolos says? In the quote he clearly states that the Kuluu came to him asking to be "freed from the chains" (cleansed of their emptiness) and as a result, they lost their former selves. What else could it mean?

You say it has to do with the chamber of Eventide possibly, but that makes no sense whatsoever. The Chamber of Eventide was a Dawnmaiden/Zilartian creation in the capital which was definitely closed off to the Terrestrial Avatars.

Until you can propose an explaination for what Diabolos says, how can you say that he didn't transform them? He is a Terrestrial avatar linked to the Crystals, a guardian of the mortal world. The "Power of the Crystals" could most definitely be a reference to his power. There's simply no way to prove that Grav'tion was not talking about Diabolos, and Diabolos personally takes responsibility for the transformation of the Kuluu.

The only possible explaination for what you're claiming is the one Xanthe mentioned. That explaination simply cannot be argued away; it is entirely possible that the Cryptonberries are the ones he transformed. However it is also possible that all of the Tonberries were transformed by Diabolos. The only option here that's not possible is that Diabolos played no role whatsoever in the transformation of the Kuluu, which is your claim.

And actually the Emptiness being cleansed by both Diabolos' power and the Meltdown makes sense if you think about it. The power of the Crystals cleanses you in CoP at the top of the five towers.

And how do you get off completely ignoring what Grav'iton said? In her quote she clearly states that the radiation given off from the meltdown caused them to degrade both mentally and physically into Tonberries.

When I mentioned the Chamber of Eventide, it is because I was thinking of a different quote. But it does lead me to a point- many Kuluu used it to remove the Emptiness from their bodies, they did not turn into Tonberries.

Here is why I do not believe that Grav'iton was speaking of Diabolos when talking about the crystals.

Unfortunately, this act caused the crystals to spin out of control. The world was engulfed in a blinding light, and the Zilart were destroyed.

The land where the Zilart resided sank to the abyssal depths of the sea, while the overwhelming power of the crystals laid waste to the Northlands, leaving them uninhabitable.

Those Kuluu who survived the happenings of that day fled here. However, the power of the crystals left its mark on us. As time passed, our bodies and minds degenerated into the form you see standing before you.

What in that statement demonstrates any amount of conscious guidance to the actions of the crystals' powers as they spun out of control? There was no will or sentience involved, just aimless destruction. A bank guard isn't in charge of the money, a crystal guardian is there to protect a mother crystal from harm, not to guide its actions.

When push comes to shove, there are contradictory stories that came out of CoP. If what Zak said about Diabolos claiming to have been born in Pso'Xja is true, Diabolos is either a lair or it is yet another contradictory story since the Terrestrial Avatars were born when Altana split the crystal into 5 mother crystals, long before the Zilart and the Kuluu were around building things. (And the Terrestrial Avatars will return to being as beasts if the mother crystals are reunited.) Provided that Diabolos is not lying, the interpretation that he was the one that transformed the Kuluu into the Tonberries is a direct and total contradiction to what Grav'iton said an expansion earlier. The Terrestrial avatars were said to be the Guardians of the Crystals in CoP, but in RoTZ that was the job of the Crystal Warriors.

I guess in the end it all boils down to what expansion you chose to believe. I chose the one that didn't bring in a bunch of plot holes and continuity errors.

[Zak]

If what Zak said about Diabolos claiming to have been born in Pso'Xja is true, Diabolos is either a lair or it is yet another contradictory story since the Terrestrial Avatars were born when Altana split the crystal into 5 mother crystals, long before the Zilart and the Kuluu were around building things. (And the Terrestrial Avatars will return to being as beasts if the mother crystals are reunited.) Provided that Diabolos is not lying, the interpretation that he was the one that transformed the Kuluu into the Tonberries is a direct and total contradiction to what Grav'iton said an expansion earlier.

It is not that contradictory if you stay with the theory that Tonberry/Cryptonberry have different origins.
And we don't actually know that much about the Terrestial Avatars and where exactly they came from. Only thing we know is, that there are possibly more Terrestial Avatars then mothercrystals.
The CS where Diabolos mentions that he was born in Pso'xja was the one right before or after the mission fight against him iirc.

[Yutuyu]

And how do you get off completely ignoring what Grav'iton said? In her quote she clearly states that the radiation given off from the meltdown caused them to degrade both mentally and physically into Tonberries.

Since when is "Power of the Crystals" clearly "radiation given off by the Meltdown?" In the same quote she describes the Meltdown as the force responsible for the sinking of the Zilartian capital, but in CoP it becomes clear that the battle between the Terrestrials and the Zilart were actually responsible.

Grav'tion speaks from a purely mortal point of view when she recounts what happens, whereas Diabolos is a god. You put more faith in what is said by a mortal, from their flawed perspective, than an avatar?

When I mentioned the Chamber of Eventide, it is because I was thinking of a different quote. But it does lead me to a point- many Kuluu used it to remove the Emptiness from their bodies, they did not turn into Tonberries.

The original division of the Crystal into the Mothercrystals, and Promathia into Mortals occured as a result of the injection of Emptiness, so to speak. In that way, Emptiness is division. In a way, it's the "lining of the soul" even.

It makes sense if you think about it, that those who possess more Emptiness than others would be unable to hear the Whisper of the Soul, as the division between the Fragments of the Mothercrystal's energy within them are protected by stronger barriers.

The whole quote was meant to illustrate a general point that Diabolos was making throughout CoP. The Chains of Promathia are not just a curse, they're also a blessing. They provide for the singular existence of mortals. To remove the chains without dealing with the "mortality" aspect reduces the aspect of self generated by those souls being "closed off."

As a result all of the tonberries souls resonated and they gained a collectiveness consciousness as their souls essentially formed powerful bonds and maybe even fused together without the Emptiness interfering. Those in the Chamber of Eventide managed to not only have the Emptiness cleansed, but they also escaped the grasp of Mortality.

What in that statement demonstrates any amount of conscious guidance to the actions of the crystals' powers as they spun out of control? There was no will or sentience involved, just aimless destruction. A bank guard isn't in charge of the money, a crystal guardian is there to protect a mother crystal from harm, not to guide its actions.

Again, maybe this is her opinion, but she's only a mortal. Grav'tion is not a god, Diabolos is. How could she know what exactly occured from her perspective?

When push comes to shove, there are contradictory stories that came out of CoP. If what Zak said about Diabolos claiming to have been born in Pso'Xja is true, Diabolos is either a lair or it is yet another contradictory story since the Terrestrial Avatars were born when Altana split the crystal into 5 mother crystals,

Here's where some serious misunderstandings begin. The Terrestrials were NOT created by the splitting of the Crystal. That is not stated anywhere, and the bit about Diabolos being born in the depths of Pso'Xja actually has some substance to it. There's also hints of Fenrir being created by Full Moon Fountain's power.

My interpretation of is, the Terrestrials were simply beasts at one point, creatures of great power, who resonated with the Crystal and accepted some strength from it in exchange for becoming their guardian.

But no one really knows exactly the storyline behind their origins.

long before the Zilart and the Kuluu were around building things. (And the Terrestrial Avatars will return to being as beasts if the mother crystals are reunited.) Provided that Diabolos is not lying, the interpretation that he was the one that transformed the Kuluu into the Tonberries is a direct and total contradiction to what Grav'iton said an expansion earlier. The Terrestrial avatars were said to be the Guardians of the Crystals in CoP, but in RoTZ that was the job of the Crystal Warriors.

So the Crystals can't have two Guardians?

I think they infact did. One set which was created by the Zilart, and another set which was birthed by processes of the world and accepted by the Kuluu.

I guess in the end it all boils down to what expansion you chose to believe. I chose the one that didn't bring in a bunch of plot holes and continuity errors.

There aren't plot holes or continuity errors. Just the storyline is very complex and told from many different points of view. Distilling truth from the conflicting reports is a difficult process, that's why it's important to review cutscenes often, do as many quests as possible, and finish every mission you can.

Your ideas on the history of Vana'diel should constantly be changing, as every resource we have is in some way flawed.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Another possibility is that Yve'noile thought their transformation was from the Meltdown, but in truth was Diabolos's fault. However, I'm still holding by my original idea.

Also, one thing that kinda hurts the whole "different Tonberries, different origins" is the Uggalepih Pendant being obtained from a Cryptonberry, unless Uggalepih is real or the idea of her was around before they became 'berries.

Thing is, they're both vague. Grav'iton's explanation has a vague cause ("power of the crystals") but clear effect, whereas Diabolos's text has a clear cause (him) but vague effect (it could just be their mental state).

I chose the one that didn't bring in a bunch of plot holes and continuity errors.

If they do conflict, (which is hard to tell and probably not true), I'd choose the one that focused heavily on storyline and was released later.

[Septimus]

Since when is "Power of the Crystals" clearly "radiation given off by the Meltdown?" In the same quote she describes the Meltdown as the force responsible for the sinking of the Zilartian capital, but in CoP it becomes clear that the battle between the Terrestrials and the Zilart were actually responsible.

Grav'tion speaks from a purely mortal point of view when she recounts what happens, whereas Diabolos is a god. You put more faith in what is said by a mortal, from their flawed perspective, than an avatar?

It makes sense if you think about it, that those who possess more Emptiness than others would be unable to hear the Whisper of the Soul, as the division between the Fragments of the Mothercrystal's energy within them are protected by stronger barriers.

The whole quote was meant to illustrate a general point that Diabolos was making throughout CoP. The Chains of Promathia are not just a curse, they're also a blessing. They provide for the singular existence of mortals. To remove the chains without dealing with the "mortality" aspect reduces the aspect of self generated by those souls being "closed off."

As a result all of the tonberries souls resonated and they gained a collectiveness consciousness as their souls essentially formed powerful bonds and maybe even fused together without the Emptiness interfering. Those in the Chamber of Eventide managed to not only have the Emptiness cleansed, but they also escaped the grasp of Mortality.

Again, maybe this is her opinion, but she's only a mortal. Grav'tion is not a god, Diabolos is. How could she know what exactly occured from her perspective?

Here's where some serious misunderstandings begin. The Terrestrials were NOT created by the splitting of the Crystal. That is not stated anywhere, and the bit about Diabolos being born in the depths of Pso'Xja actually has some substance to it. There's also hints of Fenrir being created by Full Moon Fountain's power.

My interpretation of is, the Terrestrials were simply beasts at one point, creatures of great power, who resonated with the Crystal and accepted some strength from it in exchange for becoming their guardian.

But no one really knows exactly the storyline behind their origins.

So the Crystals can't have two Guardians?

I think they infact did. One set which was created by the Zilart, and another set which was birthed by processes of the world and accepted by the Kuluu.

There aren't plot holes or continuity errors. Just the storyline is very complex and told from many different points of view. Distilling truth from the conflicting reports is a difficult process, that's why it's important to review cutscenes often, do as many quests as possible, and finish every mission you can.

Your ideas on the history of Vana'diel should constantly be changing, as every resource we have is in some way flawed.

Since when is "Power of the Crystals" clearly "radiation given off by the Meltdown?" When she mentions that that power engulfed the world in a blinding light. And when she said: "the overwhelming power of the crystals laid waste to the Northlands, leaving them uninhabitable." She used the same phrase "the power of the crystals" that described the Meltdown's destruction of the Northlands to describe what altered the Kuluu's bodies and minds. Unless you are trying to say that Diabolos also destroyed the Northlands as well? As for what she said about Al'Taieu, she was not there to witness it being pulled into its own crystal which was pulled into another dimension, so it is very easy to see where "sank to the abyssal depths of the sea" came from.

First thing that you have to remember that even though Diabolos is considered to be a "god", he is really a false god. I believe that the explanation that the Celestial Avatars gave (I think in the Waking the Beast quest) was that the Terrestrial Avatars were simply beasts before Altana separated the crystal. After the splitting the Celestials fell into eternal slumber and 5 beasts became Terrestrial Avatars. The reason they tried to stop the Zilart was that they did not wish to become simple beasts again. Mind you, this is the Celestial Avatars' opinion of the Terrestrial Avatars' motives, but the point stands that they were normal creatures in Paradise and were the "Gates of Paradise" to be reopened, they would revert to being normal creatures.

So you may say that Grav'tion has a "mortal point of view", but still Diabolos's point of view as a false god is not really any better. Fenrir powers the Full Moon Fountain, not the other way around- otherwise the Star Sybill would not have lost the ability to do star readings after Karaha-Baruha died summoning Fenrir, nor would the magical gizmos in the Horutoto Ruins drain all of the magic out of Sarutabaruta and the Heaven's Tower since Fenrir would resupply it.

I don't buy the complex history thing when there have stories that openly contradict each other. It's like that crap with the X-Men "Oh, by the way there was a whole other group of X-Men that no one ever knew about that conveniently died, but their leader was Cyclops and Havok's heretofore unknown brother who is now a villain" or "Here's Sentry, he was a huge hero back in the day, everyone just sort of forgot about him and all of the comic books that featured him were mysteriously rewritten".

[Zak]

Wasn't Pso'xja a CoP area? Is it soooo hard to believe that Cryptonberrys were added to CoP because of the Diablolos plot, which is also part of CoP?

[Yutuyu]

Since when is "Power of the Crystals" clearly "radiation given off by the Meltdown?" When she mentions that that power engulfed the world in a blinding light. And when she said: "the overwhelming power of the crystals laid waste to the Northlands, leaving them uninhabitable." She used the same phrase "the power of the crystals" that described the Meltdown's destruction of the Northlands to describe what altered the Kuluu's bodies and minds. Unless you are trying to say that Diabolos also destroyed the Northlands as well? As for what she said about Al'Taieu, she was not there to witness it being pulled into its own crystal which was pulled into another dimension, so it is very easy to see where "sank to the abyssal depths of the sea" came from.

The fact of the matter is, much of what she says is inconsistent with other sources, or blatant half-truths. What she tells you is specifically aimed at getting you to do her bidding. She tells you just enough so that you understand who she is, why she knows what she does, and the effects the previous meltdown supposedly had, then sends you on your merry way to essentially do exactly what the Kuluu did back then, but in the modern era.

She fails to mention the Kuluu/Terrestrial alliance, what really happened to Al'Taieu, the difference between the Kuluu and the Zilart, the Chains at *all*, Diabolos, etc. etc.

Grav'tion is not a reliable source.

First thing that you have to remember that even though Diabolos is considered to be a "god", he is really a false god. I believe that the explanation that the Celestial Avatars gave (I think in the Waking the Beast quest) was that the Terrestrial Avatars were simply beasts before Altana separated the crystal. After the splitting the Celestials fell into eternal slumber and 5 beasts became Terrestrial Avatars. The reason they tried to stop the Zilart was that they did not wish to become simple beasts again. Mind you, this is the Celestial Avatars' opinion of the Terrestrial Avatars' motives, but the point stands that they were normal creatures in Paradise and were the "Gates of Paradise" to be reopened, they would revert to being normal creatures.

Diabolos and the other Terrestrials are false gods in that they were not given their divinity by the Sentient Crystal. They are not an aspect of it either. They are merely extremely strong creatures, and considered deities because of the immense power and knowledge they possess.

The Crystal becoming one would make all things born of it into 1 entity, the Sentient Crystal. It's basically pure equality because all things would be collapsed into that one consciousness. The reason why the Terrestrials are against this occuring is plainly obvious: in Vana'diel they're at the top of the hiearchy, why would they want to have that taken away from them, and find themselves "equal" to all other parts of the whole.

Not to mention there would BE no "self" for them.

So you may say that Grav'tion has a "mortal point of view", but still Diabolos's point of view as a false god is not really any better. Fenrir powers the Full Moon Fountain, not the other way around- otherwise the Star Sybill would not have lost the ability to do star readings after Karaha-Baruha died summoning Fenrir, nor would the magical gizmos in the Horutoto Ruins drain all of the magic out of Sarutabaruta and the Heaven's Tower since Fenrir would resupply it.

Granted, I'm not fully versed on the Star Sibyl and Moon Readings, but it always seemed to me like the Sibyl received the readings from Fenrir, not the fountain. And thus the reason the Sibyl couldn't make readings while Fenrir was dead wasn't because the fountain wasn't powered, it was because Fenrir wasn't alive to feed her the information.

I don't buy the complex history thing when there have stories that openly contradict each other. It's like that crap with the X-Men "Oh, by the way there was a whole other group of X-Men that no one ever knew about that conveniently died, but their leader was Cyclops and Havok's heretofore unknown brother who is now a villain" or "Here's Sentry, he was a huge hero back in the day, everyone just sort of forgot about him and all of the comic books that featured him were mysteriously rewritten".

Actually, I think the mediums through which we view the past of Vana'diel do a great job of portraying the true nature of history. They really do a great job of reflecting reality in that aspect.