WotG Storyline Discussion (Spoilers)

[Sagacious Sundi]

The Crystal becoming one would make all things born of it into 1 entity, the Sentient Crystal. It's basically pure equality because all things would be collapsed into that one consciousness. The reason why the Terrestrials are against this occuring is plainly obvious: in Vana'diel they're at the top of the hiearchy, why would they want to have that taken away from them, and find themselves "equal" to all other parts of the whole.

Hmmm, I don't think it's ever said the crystal reunited would make all things follow a single thought or whatever. In fact, the fact that gods existed when the crystal was one makes it clear that this seems to be exclusive to terrestrial avatars (as it is mentioned that they would become "mere beasts/animals" in "paradise"), further indicating that they share some sentience or something with the crystal(s).

[Yutuyu]

The Crystal becoming one would make all things born of it into 1 entity, the Sentient Crystal. It's basically pure equality because all things would be collapsed into that one consciousness. The reason why the Terrestrials are against this occuring is plainly obvious: in Vana'diel they're at the top of the hiearchy, why would they want to have that taken away from them, and find themselves "equal" to all other parts of the whole.

Hmmm, I don't think it's ever said the crystal reunited would make all things follow a single thought or whatever. In fact, the fact that gods existed when the crystal was one makes it clear that this seems to be exclusive to terrestrial avatars (as it is mentioned that they would become "mere beasts/animals" in "paradise"), further indicating that they share some sentience or something with the crystal(s).

As far as I understand it, all things come from the Crystal, it was the beginning of everything. And when we die we return to the Crystal because we ARE the Crystal. We are fragments of it. The Celestial Avatars hint at this alllll the time throughout the cutscenes.

[Max™]

Everything but Garlaige and Eld are under control on Carby, I'll go look around later after Sky with my Bst friend and see if we can find any new NPC's in the close to Jeuno zones.

[Sagacious Sundi]

The Crystal becoming one would make all things born of it into 1 entity, the Sentient Crystal. It's basically pure equality because all things would be collapsed into that one consciousness. The reason why the Terrestrials are against this occuring is plainly obvious: in Vana'diel they're at the top of the hiearchy, why would they want to have that taken away from them, and find themselves "equal" to all other parts of the whole.

Hmmm, I don't think it's ever said the crystal reunited would make all things follow a single thought or whatever. In fact, the fact that gods existed when the crystal was one makes it clear that this seems to be exclusive to terrestrial avatars (as it is mentioned that they would become "mere beasts/animals" in "paradise"), further indicating that they share some sentience or something with the crystal(s).

As far as I understand it, all things come from the Crystal, it was the beginning of everything. And when we die we return to the Crystal because we ARE the Crystal. We are fragments of it. The Celestial Avatars hint at this alllll the time throughout the cutscenes.

I know that, but I was mainly talking about what would happen if the crystal were reunited and how closely related to the crystals terrestrials are compared to everything else.

[Malacite]

And the quote about the Kuluu being freed from the chains was most likely about the Chamber of Eventide removing their Emptiness allowing some like Esha'ntarl regain the whisper of souls and immortality. Didn't they have to stop that because their displaced Emptiness started to affect the Mother Crystals? (Otherwise known as negative results.)

Lord Diabolos! Is there any way to break these chains that bind us?

There is...one way...
Long ago, remnants of the Kuluu came to me and asked me to release them from the chains of Promathia.
I did as they asked...
However, the result was tragic. The Kuluu lost their original selves...

Man, I really hate to be this guy but... LEARN TO READ.

Oddly enough, I do know how to read.

A fantastic amount of energy was drained from the crystals and focused into Tu'Lia. However, while this was taking place, we Kuluu led an attack on the northernmost ark and destroyed it, putting an end to their abominable plan.

Unfortunately, this act caused the crystals to spin out of control. The world was engulfed in a blinding light, and the Zilart were destroyed.

The land where the Zilart resided sank to the abyssal depths of the sea, while the overwhelming power of the crystals laid waste to the Northlands, leaving them uninhabitable.

Those Kuluu who survived the happenings of that day fled here. However, the power of the crystals left its mark on us. As time passed, our bodies and minds degenerated into the form you see standing before you.

We do not regret our actions.

It was a small sacrifice to save Vana'diel.

Let's see, "Diabolos"? Nope, nary a word of him. "Ruler of Dynamis"? Not mentioned. "An avatar", nothing even remotely similar.

Just exposure to the power of the crystals, no mention of any other outside forces. It is a stunningly unambiguous statement.

Diabolos made an appearance (as a voice at least) in RotZ at the end of Dynamis - Xarcabard, so it's not like the character was not conceived yet.

It's called an errata >_>b


EDIT: Didn't carbuncle say that the terrestrial avatars were born of Vana'diel itself?

[Gilthas]

She fails to mention the Kuluu/Terrestrial alliance, what really happened to Al'Taieu, the difference between the Kuluu and the Zilart, the Chains at *all*, Diabolos, etc. etc.

Grav'tion is not a reliable source.

Why she doesn't know the true fate of Al'Taieu has already been give a plausible explaination. As for the rest, it was simply unimportant. I don't see why Grav'tion should be considered not to be a reliable source.

[Yutuyu]

She fails to mention the Kuluu/Terrestrial alliance, what really happened to Al'Taieu, the difference between the Kuluu and the Zilart, the Chains at *all*, Diabolos, etc. etc.

Grav'tion is not a reliable source.

Why she doesn't know the true fate of Al'Taieu has already been give a plausible explaination. As for the rest, it was simply unimportant. I don't see why Grav'tion should be considered not to be a reliable source.

Because she is essentially manipulating you into becoming the champion of her cause? She only tells you the facts which make the Kuluu and Dawnmaidens seem right, and leaves everything else out. She doesn't mention that it is essentially the Kuluu's own fault for trusting in Diabolos for ending up that way, instead she claims they were victims of the power of the crystals.

And everything in Vana'diel is essentially born of Vana'diel, aside from the Emptiness, which is totally foreign.

[Gilthas]

She fails to mention the Kuluu/Terrestrial alliance, what really happened to Al'Taieu, the difference between the Kuluu and the Zilart, the Chains at *all*, Diabolos, etc. etc.

Grav'tion is not a reliable source.

Why she doesn't know the true fate of Al'Taieu has already been give a plausible explaination. As for the rest, it was simply unimportant. I don't see why Grav'tion should be considered not to be a reliable source.

Because she is essentially manipulating you into becoming the champion of her cause? She only tells you the facts which make the Kuluu and Dawnmaidens seem right, and leaves everything else out. She doesn't mention that it is essentially the Kuluu's own fault for trusting in Diabolos for ending up that way, instead she claims they were victims of the power of the crystals.

And everything in Vana'diel is essentially born of Vana'diel, aside from the Emptiness, which is totally foreign.

For one you don't have concrete evidence that Diabolos was responsible for all the Kuluu becoming Tonberries, for all we know it could have just been a fraction of the original Kuluu. Additionally you make it sound like Diabolos tricked the Kuluu. And what exactly is this "everything else" that would make the Kuluu and the Dawnmaidens seem wrong? What Grav'tion says is:

"Zilart make crystal go boom, boom is bad" and that's basically the plot of RotZ, stop the Zilart before they end up killing us all.

And why the hell would she mention the Emptiness or Terrestrial avatars to us?

Grav'tion: "There is much you need to know about Vana'diel"

*long monologue about the emptiness, terrestrial and celestial avatars"

Random adventurer: "So to stop the Zilart we must find a way to stop the spread of emptiness while keeping all these avatars in check?"

Grav'tion: "Nah, just run around the world to get some crystal thingies and then go to the ancient sausage island."

Random adventurer: "Wut?"

Grav'tion: "Been a while since I've had a nice chat, you know, because of all the stabbity stabbing going on."

Random Adventurer: "..."

[Septimus]

She fails to mention the Kuluu/Terrestrial alliance, what really happened to Al'Taieu, the difference between the Kuluu and the Zilart, the Chains at *all*, Diabolos, etc. etc.

Grav'tion is not a reliable source.

Why she doesn't know the true fate of Al'Taieu has already been give a plausible explaination. As for the rest, it was simply unimportant. I don't see why Grav'tion should be considered not to be a reliable source.

Because she is essentially manipulating you into becoming the champion of her cause? She only tells you the facts which make the Kuluu and Dawnmaidens seem right, and leaves everything else out. She doesn't mention that it is essentially the Kuluu's own fault for trusting in Diabolos for ending up that way, instead she claims they were victims of the power of the crystals.

And everything in Vana'diel is essentially born of Vana'diel, aside from the Emptiness, which is totally foreign.

So wait... You are now claiming that she was trying to trick you into stopping the Zilartian princes, what you and Gilgamesh were trying to do in the first place? Anything else you would like to make up in your elaborate fan fiction while you are at it?

[Kyreth]

Everything but Garlaige and Eld are under control on Carby, I'll go look around later after Sky with my Bst friend and see if we can find any new NPC's in the close to Jeuno zones.

Thank you. It'd be nice to see some WoTG info in this WoTG storyline discussion we got going on here, hmm?

[Zak]

Anything else you would like to make up in your elaborate fan fiction while you are at it?

Where is taking every word from RotZ for , and ignoring everything from CoP as bogus any better?

The Tonberry discussion leads to nothing at this point. There is the plotline with the transformation through radiation. And there is another plotline including Diabolos. We can only assume that the Diabolos plotline was the reason why they added Cryptonberrys in CoP.

[Yutuyu]

I never said she was trying to make you do something you don't want to do. Just that she gave you a one-sided vision of what actually occured for the sake of pumping up the case against the Zilart. She discluded so much from her story that might've weakened her case. How else do you explain all that she left out?

The Zilart weren't trying to "boom." There wasn't really any concrete reason on behalf of the Kuluu to believe that what the Zilart were doing was going to cause something bad to happen actually. The only person who knew that their ambitions were deadly was Yve'Noile (EDIT: I take that back, the Terrestrials might've known and used the Kuluu to that end, but I haven't seen any Kuluu articulate why they stopped the Zilart). The Kuluu merely followed her down the path blindly; unless she told them the truth about everything, which seems highly unlikely.

And what is with this cynicism against what Diabolos says? It's truly amazing how people discredit that what they simply don't want to believe on no basis whatsoever. There is not a single reason to believe that Diabolos is a liar, everything he says throughout CoP is true. Why would he lie about the Kuluu ANYWAY, he's on their side! They may have even created him.

No, no where does it say he changed *all* Kuluu. But the quote is fairly obvious. He removed their chains at their request, they lost their former selves. Pretty obvious what he did and who's responsible.

edit2: Of course it is possible that the Meltdown did change some of them and Diabolos changed others, but I've already said that's a possibility. The only reason we're still arguing at this point is because Septimus went "NUH UH" at that and is now claiming that Diabolos saying that holds no weight in the storyline whatsoever and should be completely thrown out.

[Septimus]

I never said she was trying to make you do something you don't want to do. Just that she gave you a one-sided vision of what actually occured for the sake of pumping up the case against the Zilart. She discluded so much from her story that might've weakened her case. How else do you explain all that she left out?

The Zilart weren't trying to "boom." There wasn't really any concrete reason on behalf of the Kuluu to believe that what the Zilart were doing was going to cause something bad to happen actually. The only person who knew that their ambitions were deadly was Yve'Noile (EDIT: I take that back, the Terrestrials might've known and used the Kuluu to that end, but I haven't seen any Kuluu articulate why they stopped the Zilart). The Kuluu merely followed her down the path blindly; unless she told them the truth about everything, which seems highly unlikely.

And what is with this cynicism against what Diabolos says? It's truly amazing how people discredit that what they simply don't want to believe on no basis whatsoever. There is not a single reason to believe that Diabolos is a liar, everything he says throughout CoP is true. Why would he lie about the Kuluu ANYWAY, he's on their side! They may have even created him.

No, no where does it say he changed *all* Kuluu. But the quote is fairly obvious. He removed their chains at their request, they lost their former selves. Pretty obvious what he did and who's responsible.

edit2: Of course it is possible that the Meltdown did change some of them and Diabolos changed others, but I've already said that's a possibility. The only reason we're still arguing at this point is because Septimus went "NUH UH" at that and is now claiming that Diabolos saying that holds no weight in the storyline whatsoever and should be completely thrown out.

Once more, why would she have do anything for the case against the Zilart? Gilgamesh sent you to the Temple of Uggalepih to specifically find Grav'iton in an effort to stop the Zilart. She could have said that the Zilartian princes had Ice Cream socials for orphans every Darksday, you still had to stop them because they were trying to reactivate the Crystal Line which would destroy all life on Vana'diel.

And yes, the Zilart were trying to make the world go boom. The side effect of the Mother Crystals being reunified is that all life (except for the Zilart and Avatars) would be annihilated. Why do you think Carbuncle is trying to get the Celestial Avatars to like people? So that when they do wake up, they won't want to restore paradise killing all of the people. Of course the Kuluu knew about the plan, even if the Zilart didn't tell them directly Yve'Noile would have told them since they would have been killed off. It wasn't following blindly, reuniting the crystals would have destroyed Vana'diel and that would be against the will of Altana- something that neither Yve'Noile nor the Kuluu would have wanted.

And is my cynicism against what Diabolos said any worse than your total revisions to the story line about anything involving Grav'iton? You took a scholar for the Kuluu and turned her into a sinister figure whose true motives for wanting to stop the Zilart from reaching paradise isn't because she wants to keep Vana'diel alive but because she is obfuscating a vast web of lies that she has perpetrated for nigh-on 10,000 years. I merely don't put any stock in a vague line that Diabolos says about "the Kuluu losing their true selves" when a non-vague explanation to the fate of the Kuluu was presented earlier in the story. I do not believe that Diabolos is a liar, I think that it is all a matter of sloppy writing.

I already stated "I guess in the end it all boils down to what expansion you chose to believe." You are the one who started slipping into a grand cover-up by Grav'iton. I am more than happy to let the debate die.

[Yutuyu]

Once more, why would she have do anything for the case against the Zilart?

Huh?

Gilgamesh sent you to the Temple of Uggalepih to specifically find Grav'iton in an effort to stop the Zilart. She could have said that the Zilartian princes had Ice Cream socials for orphans every Darksday, you still had to stop them because they were trying to reactivate the Crystal Line which would destroy all life on Vana'diel.

Since when is she omnipotent and knows all of your intentions? We're debating what motivations went into what she said.

And yes, the Zilart were trying to make the world go boom. The side effect of the Mother Crystals being reunified is that all life (except for the Zilart and Avatars) would be annihilated. Why do you think Carbuncle is trying to get the Celestial Avatars to like people? So that when they do wake up, they won't want to restore paradise killing all of the people. Of course the Kuluu knew about the plan, even if the Zilart didn't tell them directly Yve'Noile would have told them since they would have been killed off. It wasn't following blindly, reuniting the crystals would have destroyed Vana'diel and that would be against the will of Altana- something that neither Yve'Noile nor the Kuluu would have wanted.

"Boom" means destroy. They had no intention of destroying Vana'diel, infact they wanted to restore it. That way of describing their intent is completely inaccurate. And NO ONE knows what would happen exactly if the Crystal is reunited. Eald'Narche admits it himself at the end of ZM. So I'm not really sure where you're getting "everyone but the Zilart and Avatars would be annihilated" from.

And is my cynicism against what Diabolos said any worse than your total revisions to the story line about anything involving Grav'iton? You took a scholar for the Kuluu and turned her into a sinister figure whose true motives for wanting to stop the Zilart from reaching paradise isn't because she wants to keep Vana'diel alive but because she is obfuscating a vast web of lies that she has perpetrated for nigh-on 10,000 years. I merely don't put any stock in a vague line that Diabolos says about "the Kuluu losing their true selves" when a non-vague explanation to the fate of the Kuluu was presented earlier in the story. I do not believe that Diabolos is a liar, I think that it is all a matter of sloppy writing.

Grav'tion is a scholar? So what're you basing that off of? We know very little about her infact.

And I wasn't making up some web of lies or complicated conspiracy. All I was saying is, we have 2 ideas presented to us in the storyline about how the Kuluu were transformed. One idea is from Diabolos, the other is from Grav'tion. There are a few vague arguments to be made about why Grav'tion wouldn't tell the truth, but there's no reason for Diabolos to lie. One is a god, the other is a mortal. The choice on who to believe is quite clear, unless you can come up with a single reason as to why Diabolos' claims should be met with doubt (which is exactly what I've been doing with Grav'tion, giving reasons as to why she might've said what she said).

It could've been ignorance on her part, unwillingness to admit the truth about who is at fault for the Kuluu's transformation, or even merely that what she stated was the truth, just a vague version of it. For some reason you categorically deny any and all possibilities which may discredit her or explain the apparent contradiction.

I already stated "I guess in the end it all boils down to what expansion you chose to believe." You are the one who started slipping into a grand cover-up by Grav'iton. I am more than happy to let the debate die.

The two aren't contradictory though, that's the problem. There's no plot hole here unless you choose to see one over one of the other possible explainations.

[Rocl]

Grav'tion is a scholar? So what're you basing that off of?

I'm pretty certain they refer to her as a scholar of the Kuluu in some CS, be it CoP or RoTZ. Aside from that, carry on

[Yutuyu]

Grav'tion is a scholar? So what're you basing that off of?

I'm pretty certain they refer to her as a scholar of the Kuluu in some CS, be it CoP or RoTZ. Aside from that, carry on

Anyone know what cutscene that might be from? I'd like to review.

[Xanthe]

Grav'tion is a scholar? So what're you basing that off of?

I'm pretty certain they refer to her as a scholar of the Kuluu in some CS, be it CoP or RoTZ. Aside from that, carry on

Anyone know what cutscene that might be from? I'd like to review.

It's from the ZM4 cutscene.

Ah, I have yet to introduce myself. My name is Grav'iton Berisacci, a scholar from the lost civilization of Kuluu. However, my colleagues often referred to me by the sobriquet, Tonberry. I represent the collective consciousness of the remains of what was once a great race of people.

[Yutuyu]

Grav'tion is a scholar? So what're you basing that off of?

I'm pretty certain they refer to her as a scholar of the Kuluu in some CS, be it CoP or RoTZ. Aside from that, carry on

Anyone know what cutscene that might be from? I'd like to review.

It's from the ZM4 cutscene.

Ah, I have yet to introduce myself. My name is Grav'iton Berisacci, a scholar from the lost civilization of Kuluu. However, my colleagues often referred to me by the sobriquet, Tonberry. I represent the collective consciousness of the remains of what was once a great race of people.

Oooh, hey, that's extremely interesting. I wonder how I glossed over that. A sobriquet is basically a nickname, so we know how the Tonberries got their name now?

[Rocl]

Grav'tion is a scholar? So what're you basing that off of?

I'm pretty certain they refer to her as a scholar of the Kuluu in some CS, be it CoP or RoTZ. Aside from that, carry on

Anyone know what cutscene that might be from? I'd like to review.

It's from the ZM4 cutscene.

Ah, I have yet to introduce myself. My name is Grav'iton Berisacci, a scholar from the lost civilization of Kuluu. However, my colleagues often referred to me by the sobriquet, Tonberry. I represent the collective consciousness of the remains of what was once a great race of people.

Oooh, hey, that's extremely interesting. I wonder how I glossed over that. A sobriquet is basically a nickname, so we know how the Tonberries got their name now?

Yeah, I'm surprised you didn't know that

[Yutuyu]

[quote=Rocl]

Grav'tion is a scholar? So what're you basing that off of?

I'm pretty certain they refer to her as a scholar of the Kuluu in some CS, be it CoP or RoTZ. Aside from that, carry on

Anyone know what cutscene that might be from? I'd like to review.

It's from the ZM4 cutscene.

Ah, I have yet to introduce myself. My name is Grav'iton Berisacci, a scholar from the lost civilization of Kuluu. However, my colleagues often referred to me by the sobriquet, Tonberry. I represent the collective consciousness of the remains of what was once a great race of people.

Oooh, hey, that's extremely interesting. I wonder how I glossed over that. A sobriquet is basically a nickname, so we know how the Tonberries got their name now?

Yeah, I'm surprised you didn't know that [/quote:2p2vulf5]
To be completely honest, I'm guessing it's because my vocabulary sucks. I probably saw that word, got confused, and never went back to it. "Sobriquet." I had to dictionary.com it.