Puerto Rico is close to statehood. Jealous yet, Canada?

[Ryko]

Kentucky

Kentucky is designated a Commonwealth by its constitution and is known as the 'Commonwealth of Kentucky'.

[edit] Virginia

Virginia has been known as the 'Commonwealth of Virginia' since before joining the United States.

[edit] Pennsylvania

Pennsylvania uses the term 'Commonwealth' loosely. The 'Commonwealth of Pennsylvania' is its official title.

[edit] Massachusetts

Massachusetts is a Commonwealth, declaring itself such in its constitution, which states that "The body politic is formed by a voluntary association of individuals: it is a social compact, by which the whole people covenants with each citizen, and each citizen with the whole people, that all shall be governed by certain laws for the common good."

Yeah, but they also pay taxes and operate exactly as a state would.

Yeah my point was the problem isn't it being designated as a commonwealth.

[Kuya]

Be nice, Kuya. I'm sure a few of us read your other threads about Puerto Rico's status and therefore understand at least a little about the issue.

Ok, fine. But why are people complaining that we don't pay taxes when we have no representation? Wasn't that the reason the colonies gave England the finger?

Also Commonwealth and unincorporated territory is just a pretty way to say colony. That is very funny, because I do remember our goberner and the US saying we weren't a colony and that the UN should take us off the colony list. Btw, if you guys knew the whole story behind that, you'd be laughing as hard as i am about all of this.

[Charla]

Be nice, Kuya. I'm sure a few of us read your other threads about Puerto Rico's status and therefore understand at least a little about the issue.

Ok, fine. But why are people complaining that we don't pay taxes when we have no representation? Wasn't that the reason the colonies gave England the finger?

I never said *everyone* understands, just those of us who aren't saying stuff that doesn't make sense.

[Elesirdur]

I can't think of any better way than opening up a controversial debate on healthcare to make a Canadian get riled up.

Hockey sucks

I agree. I hate going to a pub or sports bar when there's NFL football on and ALL the TVs have hockey on.

[Khamsin]

What's wrong with taxation without representation? Nothing to start a fight over.

[Byrd]

Ok, fine. But why are people complaining that we don't pay taxes when we have no representation? Wasn't that the reason the colonies gave England the finger?

Close, but not quite. The colonies were being taxed, but had no representation. "No Taxation without Representation" became a Revolutionary War battle cry.

[Kuya]

The governer is just doing this because he is currently being investigated by the FBI for corruption, so in order to get the people on his side, he's trying to antagonize the US. His administration has been absolut shit so now he's trying to sing his swawn song by rilling shit up. It's fucking disgusting that this has to be the way that the shit has to hit the surface.

He wasn't happy that the constituent investigated the island and found that Puerto Rico, is in fact still a colony, as oppossed to what the US told the UN and the rest of the world some 30 years ago. So the governer, being of the populist party, in order to preserve power, has to make the world believe that PR is not a colony, and that the Commonwealth is a legitimate status, as opossed to what Congress sead 30 years ago. If the Commonwealth dies, so dies the populist party. Hence he's trying to blackmail Congress on their lie, and telling them that if they don't invalidate or change what the findings reported, and say that PR is not a colony, he will make a shitstorm all over the world that the US lied, and that PR is in fact, still a colony. And now the PNP party is riding the bandwagon and using this chance to legitimize the idea of PR becoming a state, which Congress has, for 100 years, sead absolutly no to (even though they always were ambigous about it, and gave us US citizen ship to make the people think that they might just do it once day, to make them shut their pieholes).

The asshole is just using this godforsaken status bullshit to create a smokescreen, so him and his party can escape this unharmed.

[Ryko]

I think his point was that you can't complain about them not paying taxes when they dont have the benefit of representation that goes with it. He knew what you were talking about.

[Kuya]

As for us being a welfare haven, that is partly your fault. When the US took PR from the Spain, they allowed the establishment of sugar companies all over the island. These massive enterprises pretty much syphoned the land dry, abusing workers, and pretty much ruling politics on the island for decades. The enterprises pretty much had their way because since they were US enterprises, they pretty much got all the advantages over native enterprises (this killed our local economy and ruined our ability to sustain ourselves, as all of the profits went toward the US, and none towards here). If you need more proof, research the companies that were laid here, during the Great Depretion, they made a killing, even while the rest of the island and the mainland were going to hell. Because of the overpopulation problem, the companies had their picking of workers, and if they complained they could easily just kick them out, and hire the starving ones off the streets. The companies also owned the land you lived on, and the food you bought off them (the military never provided enough food, and shelter for the island).

These companies were constantly allowed to abuse the system while paying nothing back to us. Your government also, temporarely taxed us without representation, after a hurricane had destroyed half of the island, and half of the land owners had to sell their land to survive. Your government, then included tarifs, were they forbade the use of foreign ships for trade, and only allowed the use of US ships (which were the most expensive), all the profits at first went directly to the federal government also. It did not take long for the US to realize what a terrible mess they had made (the US didn't have much experience with colonies at the time, somewhat... understandable), and in order to pretty much save thousands from death, they had to install a welfare system on the island. Which has existed to this day.

Although, i get the feeling nobody is going to read this, cept an elect few. If history has taught us anything, it is that n. americans never listen or care about anything else unless something drastic happends. Proven by the fact that most americans think that PR is either in haiwaii/some place in mexico/don't know where it is/never heard of it/don't know of the shit their government has pulled here for a century.

[Charla]

Although, i get the feeling nobody is going to read this, cept an elect few. If history has taught us anything, it is that n. americans never listen or care about anything else unless something drastic happends. Proven by the fact that most americans think that PR is either in haiwaii/some place in mexico/don't know where it is/never heard of it

All I know is you're somewhere near Cuba and/or Jamaica, and that's close enough for this thread.

don't know of the shit their government has pulled here for a century

What you described isn't all the fault of the government though. From your description (here and in the other threads) I'd say it's about 60% greedy corporations, 15% incompetant governments and 25% good ol' American ignorance/apathy.

Just out of curiosity, how does the current status of Puerto Rico compare to that of the other "unincorporated territories" like Guam, American Samoa and the U.S. Virgin Islands?

[Kuya]

Just out of curiosity, how does the current status of Puerto Rico compare to that of the other "unincorporated territories" like Guam, American Samoa and the U.S. Virgin Islands?

We have american citizenship, yet we don't have the same rights. Freedom of speech, is not secured to us, or so one is lead to assume from the Balzac vs. the people of puerto rico case. The logic the supreme court used was that, as long as an american citizen is in PR, he does not have the same rights as an american citizen in the US. Other than that, our status is not that much different from the 3 islands you've just mentioned, well other than the smokescreens.

What you described isn't all the fault of the government though. From your description (here and in the other threads) I'd say it's about 60% greedy corporations, 15% incompetant governments and 25% good ol' American ignorance/apathy.

Congress has 100% of the power though, and they allowed it to happen. We all know you can't trust corporations to ethics.

[Alleya]

It's not Congress' job to enforce the laws, they just make them. They aren't an all-powerful entity.

[Kuya]

It's not Congress' job to enforce the laws, they just make them. They aren't an all-powerful entity.

You're right. Except when it comes to colonies. Politics and economics here don't work the same way.

[Alleya]

It's not Congress' job to enforce the laws, they just make them. They aren't an all-powerful entity.

You're right. Except when it comes to colonies. Politics and economics here don't work the same way.

Please cite specific constitutional articles that give congress complete control of colonies and other territories. I am not being snotty, I'm genuinely curious.

[ozz]

It's not Congress' job to enforce the laws, they just make them. They aren't an all-powerful entity.

You're right. Except when it comes to colonies. Politics and economics here don't work the same way.

Please cite specific constitutional articles that give congress complete control of colonies and other territories. I am not being snotty, I'm genuinely curious.

i see why the canucks are confused, you don't sound sarcastic at all

[Kuya]

It's not Congress' job to enforce the laws, they just make them. They aren't an all-powerful entity.

You're right. Except when it comes to colonies. Politics and economics here don't work the same way.

Please cite specific constitutional articles that give congress complete control of colonies and other territories. I am not being snotty, I'm genuinely curious.

...

Alleya... are you... honestly...?

[Charla]

"100% of the power" only exists in a dictatorship. The entire point of elected officials is that they can be held accountable for their actions by the voters, and are thus motivated to do what the voters want. As such, if the voters are not apathetic about any given issue, the Democratically elected government is more likely to address it. If the voters are apathetic about an issue, the government will likewise tend to ignore it. Therefore, the government's inaction can often be considered a direct result of the public's apathy (which in turn is often a result of the media's lack of attention, but that's beyond the scope of my argument).

As for the distinction between legislation and enforcement, I understand that there may have been labor laws either local or federal prohibiting what the sugar companies did. But without an agency willing and able to enforce those labor laws, again either local or federal, Congress simply couldn't have done much about it short of revoking the companies' licensces or sending in the military. Either of which would probably cause an unpleasant situation. In light of the voting public's evident apathy toward the entire island, the obvious best option would have been to hope for the best and leave the fallout to their successors, which of course is you, us, and the current Congress.

[Kuya]

I made an exageration with 100%. But you're argument that it is not solely the Congress' fault doesn't really change much, there's plenty of blame to trow around. Regardless you should be able to see why it irks me when any north american tries to pin the burden on us, when most of our current pathetic situation was engendered by the US government, or some entity belonging to the US.

And it was and is in the Congress' best interest to watch out for the interests of corporations from the mainland, it is sort of logical. I would need to read up on some of my text books to remember the specific examples where Congress has intervened by eliminating whatever attempt was made here to stimulate economic growth because corporations from the mainland protested about american business and workers being threatend by it. Again, this is logical and understandable, all nations seek to protect their own. It's simply perplexing to have it done to you after being declared (agaisnt your own will) an american citizen.

[archibaldcrane]

While american's apathy towards Puerto Rico is apparent, it's not like there's some overwhelming majority of Puerto Ricans who want a certain thing that we're ignoring. Your colony is pretty torn in what it wants too - if ya'll figure out what you want, the apathy will at least have a chance to wane.

Kuya - as far as your "status" as an entity goes, what do you want?

[Kuya]

Your colony is pretty torn in what it wants too - if ya'll figure out what you want, the apathy will at least have a chance to wane.

Remember the arguments from most men, of women being munipulative creatures? Even though this ignores the fac that throughout thousands of years, due to a severe lack of rights in any meaningful position in society, the only way for a woman to advance in society is through a man. So why do men complain about a situation they've placed themselves in by forcing them into it?

Same applies here. Congress has strictly sead that, neither, Statehood, Independance, or turning the Commonwealth into an official status are options. They're argument has been that they did not want to let Puertorricans vote for something that they might not be willing to give them. They have refused it, numerous times throughout the century, all 3. So naturaly, leaving us with no choice, what are we supossed to do? Our political leaders continue to argue about it, as if we had a choice, and i'll explain the situation this has created soon. People here don't know what to do, becuase the US dosn't know what to do, they have the final say. I don't understand why they continue to say we have the final say, when they have never shown that they were willing to follow through on any of it.

Kuya - as far as your "status" as an entity goes, what do you want?

Statehood or Independence are both great options, options we cannot partake in because we lack sufficient self reliance. We cannot handle the federal taxes due to our unbelievable unemployment, and most likely, with our current systems, we'd be fucked by ourselves. So status should be the last step in any plan to save this fucking island from catastrophy. First the Triparty system must be eliminated, and it is it's use of the status that is exactly what's helping perpetuate all of this.

You would laugh, but they have absolutly NO PUBLIC STANCE ON ANYTHING RAGING FROM ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, EDUCATION, CRIME, OR ANY SOCIAL MATTER WHATSOEVER. Their sole argument is the status of island, and the people buy into their lies, they want to make people believe that changing our status will magical make everything ok. It absolutly won't. We've been living in a fucking spiral for the last century, and these assholes has been helping keep it that way just so long as theUS corporations feed their pockets and they get to keep the power. They have politized every aspect of our culture and lead it all to inneficiency and relience.

After reforms have been met, after the smoke has been cleared, then, whether it be statehood or independence, we can at least make an honest choice, even if Congress won't follow through on anything at all again. Years as a colony have only lead to a sort of docility on part of the people here, that just lets them sit there and take it. And most likely, without a paradigm shift, we don't be able to force Congress to do a thing. In the end, i would prefer independence, simply because it would be nice to have a place to actually call your own, and happily say that you helped make it. So far, there have been so many dicks in the box you don't even know who did what anymore.