Know Your Maker?

[Khalil]

The main problem with FFXI is that there are two very different communities sharing the same game :

- 490.000 noobs + casual players
- 10.000 end-game players

In the end, even if the end-game players are full of great advices and awesome ideas, they still are a tiny portion of the game audience. And S-E, as a big company, may not always listen to the tiny share of people, no matter how vocal they can be at times :/

Where did you get those stats?

[Yutuyu]

The main problem with FFXI is that there are two very different communities sharing the same game :

- 490.000 noobs + casual players
- 10.000 end-game players

In the end, even if the end-game players are full of great advices and awesome ideas, they still are a tiny portion of the game audience. And S-E, as a big company, may not always listen to the tiny share of people, no matter how vocal they can be at times :/

That and uh, end-game players don't always have the best advice. They have the best advice for themself, but that's all they really think about. Things that would make THEM happy.

Edit: Need examples?

- Every time someone talks about sky gods people chime in saying they should be made harder. Fun for you, bad for the noob. He still has the gear/merits that you did when you took them on for the first time.

- Whining when they nerf difficulty of things like CoP, even though we can all agree certain parts of CoP were very hard.

- Insulting things like chocobo stables, fish ranking, etc. Little casual activities that less obsessed players DO take part in.



Endgame people want all of the developer's attention all of the time, they somehow think they deserve it.

[Fallso]

The main problem with FFXI is that there are two very different communities sharing the same game :

- 490.000 noobs + casual players
- 10.000 end-game players

In the end, even if the end-game players are full of great advices and awesome ideas, they still are a tiny portion of the game audience. And S-E, as a big company, may not always listen to the tiny share of people, no matter how vocal they can be at times :/

That and uh, end-game players don't always have the best advice. They have the best advice for themself, but that's all they really think about. Things that would make THEM happy.

Edit: Need examples?

- Every time someone talks about sky gods people chime in saying they should be made harder. Fun for you, bad for the noob. He still has the gear/merits that you did when you took them on for the first time.

- Whining when they nerf difficulty of things like CoP, even though we can all agree certain parts of CoP were very hard.

- Insulting things like chocobo stables, fish ranking, etc. Little casual activities that less obsessed players DO take part in.



Endgame people want all of the developer's attention all of the time, they somehow think they deserve it.

We do.

[The Blackrose]

And thats why something as Simple as a MUD will always have better player base intuitiveness (sp? is it even a word?) then FFXI there is the problem right there.
SE force your Devs to level 1 job to 75 and put that person in charge of working on balancing that job.
that or force your balance team to actually level some jobs to 75 and test them.....

Certain MMOs have put such concepts into place (Dark Age of Camelot comes to mind). However, they end up becoming a bottleneck of hatred. Most of the time the class representatives would be ignored, and then the representative would have to be offered as a sacrificial lamb to the ire of the player base they are representing.

It was very rare for the devs to take into account what the representatives were saying. Hell, it took Mythic a year or two to finally get it through their heads that when they rebalanced everything, they nerfed DAoC archers into oblivion so hard it made FFXI Rangers turn their head and cough.

[Kyreth]

Endgame people want all of the developer's attention all of the time, they somehow think they deserve it.

We do.

No, you don't. Focusing on content most of your playerbase fails to get to exclusively results in no other players whatsoever.

If it was all endgamers, stuff like Besieged and Campaign would never have existed. You'd end up with an Everquest-like series of expansions where 99 percent of the content was lethal to anyone under 65, save for a single city, and had nothing whatsoever for anyone lower. And required elite endgame gear to do anything significant, plus make all of your earlier gear trash save for the inital encounter.

Not catering to endgamers along doesn't equal making nothing but newbie content, of course. Look at WoTG. We're seeing hunting areas show from the low 30's -> 75.

[safer]

- Insulting things like chocobo stables, fish ranking, etc. Little casual activities that less obsessed players DO take part in.

ya i hate chocobo stables >(

[Tomiko]

That and uh, end-game players don't always have the best advice. They have the best advice for themself, but that's all they really think about. Things that would make THEM happy.

Endgame people want all of the developer's attention all of the time, they somehow think they deserve it.

I agree that they/we don't always have the best advice, but to say that they/we don't deserve it isn't exactly right. By making things easier (Leveling to 75 for example), they just add more people to the endgame population because chances are sooner or later they're going to want to do things like Kings, etc. I'm sure everyone has seen the random shells show up to kings or the shouts recruiting for new shells.

I don't mind them making things easier, but I do feel they should cater more towards endgame in order to spread out the growing endgame population more.

[Lordender]

I agree with catering more to the end game player just because in a game this old your not going to see huge influx of new players joining ffxi this late in the game. The hardcore players are mostly endgame players who are spending the most amount of time playing. ToAU made it pretty effortless for anyone to hit level 75 which added even more players to the end game.

[Yutuyu]

You guys clearly don't understand how to run a business.

If you're running an all-you-can-eat buffet, you don't want to add lard-based foods to keep the 300 lb guy who already spends 2 hours chowing down in the resturant there even longer; you want more light, casual business that doesn't end up costing you more money in the long run.

Just because we play more does not make us better customers; infact it makes it us worse.

[Alleya]

We actually know quite a bit.

[BRP]

SE has been centering around 60+ play. It's just what they've been doing is getting away from the 30+ member LSes spending hours in the same place. You don't need a HNM LS to have fun at 75, which wasn't the case a couple of years ago. You don't even need 75 to have fun.

[Lordwafik]

You guys clearly don't understand how to run a business.

If you're running an all-you-can-eat buffet, you don't want to add lard-based foods to keep the 300 lb guy who already spends 2 hours chowing down in the resturant there even longer; you want more light, casual business that doesn't end up costing you more money in the long run.

Just because we play more does not make us better customers; infact it makes it us worse.

FFXI isn't an all you can eat buffet, people pay the same price no matter how long they stay. The price is charged by the month, and those casual people who leave after their second month aren't going to be giving more money than the fatty mcfatkins who's been playing for 2 years.

[Yutuyu]

You guys clearly don't understand how to run a business.

If you're running an all-you-can-eat buffet, you don't want to add lard-based foods to keep the 300 lb guy who already spends 2 hours chowing down in the resturant there even longer; you want more light, casual business that doesn't end up costing you more money in the long run.

Just because we play more does not make us better customers; infact it makes it us worse.

FFXI isn't an all you can eat buffet, people pay the same price no matter how long they stay. The price is charged by the month, and those casual people who leave after their second month aren't going to be giving more money than the fatty mcfatkins who's been playing for 2 years.

That's... exactly my point. To be smart businessmen they need to add content for the casual players who aren't sticking around for the long run so they WILL. Not add content for the people who're already fanatical members of the player base. I bet you for everyone whining about WotG, less than 1% of the whiners have quit over it.

[Diametric]

You guys clearly don't understand how to run a business.

If you're running an all-you-can-eat buffet, you don't want to add lard-based foods to keep the 300 lb guy who already spends 2 hours chowing down in the resturant there even longer; you want more light, casual business that doesn't end up costing you more money in the long run.

Just because we play more does not make us better customers; infact it makes it us worse.

FFXI isn't an all you can eat buffet, people pay the same price no matter how long they stay. The price is charged by the month, and those casual people who leave after their second month aren't going to be giving more money than the fatty mcfatkins who's been playing for 2 years.

That was the point, I thought. Whether you're one of the people who plays 24/7 or the guy who only logs in to check his plants and solo for an hour after work, you're paying the same price. So rather than devote a lot of time and energy trying to please the people who have already been playing for 2-3 years, isn't it smarter to try to add stuff to get the more casual people hooked, and hopefully playing the game for longer than they would have otherwise? The fatty mcfatkins isn't gonna be going anywhere anytime soon.

[Nazrious]

Ummm actually in an everyshrinking poulation Se must do one of

1) Focus on making new and excisting content to bring in a new people, more then the people that leave.
2) Focus on stopping the steady bleed of the already existing playerbase.
3) Focus on getting new players into the game and keeping them.
or
4) all of the above.

or, what they prolly will be doing.

5) recognize FFXI as a dying old horse and put it out to pasture, while working on a new game to sell en masse.

ooooorrr they can call Blizzard up sell out to them and let their Devs handle the problem, lol.

not to brign the B word up but Blizzard does have a better sense for business then Square or Enix ever had and the new SE ever will.

SE has taken choice #5 almost always

Blizz had taken choice #4 more often then not, look at WC series and Diablo, out before FFXI and yet they still have die hard fans.
Granted a lot of content has been deved. by player but Blizz has put some of the strongest online content out there.

Walk into a Best buy and u seek a lot more WC BattleChest then you see of FFXI and all of its expansions.

so then lets compare what SE and Blizz Does.

SE makes content that goes stale once you reach the endgame... thus they must constantly make new Endgame content.
However they move at snail pace.

Blizz does the same exact thing.
However they too move at a snails pace, BUT allow the player base to shoulder some of the load.
ever hear of DOTA??? simplistic player developed Blizzard approved everyone loved it.

or while from valve, Counter Strike= player developed Valve approved, <3 by all.

SE takes the "My Precious" standpoint and has keep your hands off approach.

BTW, has any one noticed SE's little blurb about possible "Player made dungeons?"

soooooo

basically SE needs to either get their Staff more involved in playing the Game or the Players more involed in developing new SE approved content.

Certain MMOs have put such concepts into place (Dark Age of Camelot comes to mind). However, they end up becoming a bottleneck of hatred. Most of the time the class representatives would be ignored, and then the representative would have to be offered as a sacrificial lamb to the ire of the player base they are representing.

It was very rare for the devs to take into account what the representatives were saying. Hell, it took Mythic a year or two to finally get it through their heads that when they rebalanced everything, they nerfed DAoC archers into oblivion so hard it made FFXI Rangers turn their head and cough.

thats not what I suggested, WoW has class reps and thats not a smart thing... what I suggested was for the DEVs to actually play the damn game and get a feel for it themselves rather then try and figure out what should be done from the say so of the balancing team.


Middle Men where made to be stepped over.


if SE got the devs directlly involved in playing then we would see some serious changes and prolly for the best.

on another note....

If the Devs don't play FFXI prolly the reason why they had to push back the vid for AV.
Had to teach the Devs how to equip gear and play the game.

[Septimus]

You guys clearly don't understand how to run a business.

If you're running an all-you-can-eat buffet, you don't want to add lard-based foods to keep the 300 lb guy who already spends 2 hours chowing down in the resturant there even longer; you want more light, casual business that doesn't end up costing you more money in the long run.

Just because we play more does not make us better customers; infact it makes it us worse.

FFXI isn't an all you can eat buffet, people pay the same price no matter how long they stay. The price is charged by the month, and those casual people who leave after their second month aren't going to be giving more money than the fatty mcfatkins who's been playing for 2 years.

That's... exactly my point. To be smart businessmen they need to add content for the casual players who aren't sticking around for the long run so they WILL. Not add content for the people who're already fanatical members of the player base. I bet you for everyone whining about WotG, less than 1% of the whiners have quit over it.

On the other hand, many end-gamers have two more more separate characters and/or multiple mules for crafting and to hold all of the crap they have, so when they quit it hurts a bit more.

To be a smart businessman you need to keep everyone happy. Sure, your fanatical people are less likely to quit this game, but how many people are going to be willing to try their next MMO?

[BRP]

There is no mass exodus of either "casual" or "hardcore", I don't see why people paint the situation like that. Some people will inevitably quit the game or disagree with SE methods. Not Campaign, the 2-hand nerfs, or anything similar has triggered enough player aggression to even matter. Some people are impossible to please and will use the words "casual" and "hardcore" to make themselves sound justifiable.

[Nazrious]

There is no mass exodus of either "casual" or "hardcore", I don't see why people paint the situation like that. Some people will inevitably quit the game or disagree with SE methods. Not Campaign, the 2-hand nerfs, or anything similar has triggered enough player aggression to even matter. Some people are impossible to please and will use the words "casual" and "hardcore" to make themselves sound justifiable.

The current player base is less then half of what it was....

Mass exodus right there.
Also the player base is not growing it is shrinking.

[Avé]

The current player base is less then half of what it was....

Mass exodus right there.
Also the player base is not growing it is shrinking.

->

[Nazrious]

I mean ask yourself this.

Would you ever suggest someone to start the game from scratch now?

look at WoW its still very accessible to people starting from scratch.