Know Your Maker?

[Lilswitche]

lol. The NA team looks like their standing in what seems to be a cafeteria or break lounge. It would seem to me their only a "call center"-esqe operation, as their all wearing proxy cards around their necks. Can anyone confirm this ?

[Nazrious]

Its not that I can't provide proof its that I'm not going to scrounge through alla ki and somepage for outdated article from a few years back, to prove omg there was once 1mil subscribers to FFXI.
This can be done by you, or you can continue to be obstinate, either way it does not make a differance.
I will restate as I have before.

SE + Devs + Playersinput= Win
SE+Devs - Playersinput= Fail

Devs have to be givine information from the players and they have to seriously look at it and work off of it.
Cus at "Dev team always does thing in groups of 3 or 4"
WTF is that?
It simply shows that the Dev's Idea of how FFXI is played is very different from how FFXI is really played.

Am I being too hard on SE for asking that they take more intrest in what there paying customers have to say?

No.

[Lordender]

The problem is SE moves at such a slow rate in responding to the player concerns. Problems with the game need to be addressed faster instead of years of waiting.

Example 1:
It took years of bitching and complaining to get SE to admit 2h weapons weren't good enough.

Example 2:
Players bitched for nearly two years about ulli before it got changed but they fucked despot up in the process.

Example 3:
Took years until they finally offered alternatives to king abj gear.

This list could go on and on i'm sure. This is a major problem that we have to complain forever to get SE to fix something thats been broken for years.

[Kyreth]

It's a balancing act.

I could see some simple, though potentially money-eating ways S-E could improve the game.

1) License Windower (the 3PP version) software from Cliff and company. People who love the game often produce the best stuff for it, and embracing the "white hats" of the mod community might well do S-E better for -less- money and development time, not more. The wheel need not be reinvented when you have a Porche sitting outside with a "For Sale-Cheap" sign in the street.

2) Give the Atomos server test expansion data, allow regular (more than 6 months active) accounts access to beta test specific things via applications. Generic AF, generic Humes with whatever names and a GM/dev/QA team liason or two to overwatch things and play along. Volunteers to "kick the tires"- which should reduce bug levels. Log -everything- and keep player numbers small. 500 at a time would do, spread over multiple time zones. Limit access to specific times when overwatch staff is available. NDA's for everyone, naturally. At some point prior to expansion release, seal it off and rely on your own QA team for final polishing to prevent excessive "player advantage" from knowing things in advance.

3) Seed topics for discussion on featured sites (and places like BG), with the understanding that no response will be given directly and specifically to that topic. The playerbase will shoulder some of the brainstorming for new content easily, and if given focus and reason will even generate some of it (see 1), above.). S-E likes to see how we react to a "bare bones" version of things (BLU, PUP, COR being ToAU examples) and this should speed things along.

[BRP]

Its not that I can't provide proof its that I'm not going to scrounge through alla ki and somepage for outdated article from a few years back, to prove omg there was once 1mil subscribers to FFXI.
This can be done by you, or you can continue to be obstinate, either way it does not make a differance.
I will restate as I have before.

You want me to find proof for you argument? Hahaha, wut. Uh, just admit you were wrong(in public or private, I don't care) and please stop bringing it up(or find proof).

Devs have to be givine information from the players and they have to seriously look at it and work off of it.
Cus at "Dev team always does thing in groups of 3 or 4"
WTF is that?
It simply shows that the Dev's Idea of how FFXI is played is very different from how FFXI is really played.

Low-manning content is extremely popular. Many people exp, kill NMs, assault, and some endgame with half the normal amount(6 becomes 3, 12 becomes 6, 18 becomes 9, 30 becomes 15). If it wasn't made clear, this is exactly what the devs meant. Players want this, players do this.

Additionally, Dancers function just dandy at normal sized parties. They never said they created Dancer to only function in 3-man parties... just that it is very effective in that situation. And guess what? So is NIN, /NIN, and BRD/WHM... all of which work fine in normal situations.

SE + Devs + Playersinput= Win
SE+Devs - Playersinput= Fail

Thanks for stating the obvious, now if only you had some good examples to go along with it. Just let Lordender do the talking, because he is actually making a reasonable point. SE does listen to players, sadly how quickly they act(or if they act at all) varies from situation to situation.

[Nazrious]

its that I'm not going to scrounge through alla ki and somepage for outdated article from a few years back, to prove omg there was once 1mil subscribers to FFXI.
This can be done by you, or you can continue to be obstinate, either way it does not make a differance.

also let me add to this that it is well known, at least to those unlike you, that FFXI was awarded a gamer award and did say they had a million subscribers. and if you look at a marketshare chart from around 2003-2005 you will see what it is I'm talking about.

And who parties with 3 people and gains an equivalent of 50% of what a 6man pt would?

perhaps Bst but aside from Bst or an odd limited setup, doesn't really happen.

The 3manpt to a 6manpt when it comes to merits is definately not making 50%.

so that leave the current situation of

If < 74 = Limited 3man party possibilities
If >74 = That's too bad.

and DNC does not change that one bit. There decent job all around but they can't pull exp out of their ass to make the "Average Competant" player attest to the glories of a 3man pt.

[Masterofshade]

its that I'm not going to scrounge through alla ki and somepage for outdated article from a few years back, to prove omg there was once 1mil subscribers to FFXI.
This can be done by you, or you can continue to be obstinate, either way it does not make a differance.

also let me add to this that it is well known, at least to those unlike you, that FFXI was awarded a gamer award and did say they had a million subscribers. and if you look at a marketshare chart from around 2003-2005 you will see what it is I'm talking about.

And who parties with 3 people and gains an equivalent of 50% of what a 6man pt would?

perhaps Bst but aside from Bst or an odd limited setup, doesn't really happen.

The 3manpt to a 6manpt when it comes to merits is definately not making 50%.

so that leave the current situation of

If < 74 = Limited 3man party possibilities
If >74 = That's too bad.

and DNC does not change that one bit. There decent job all around but they can't pull exp out of their ass to make the "Average Competant" player attest to the glories of a 3man pt.

You need to cite some things. Burden of proof is on the person that makes the claim, not the one challenging it.

For instance:

I am of the opinion that you're a complete idiot, and I believe said opinion is also truth. I'd like to cite 90% of your posts as proof.

[BRP]

http://www.mmogchart.com/

FFXI is hovering quite nicely at the 500,000 mark(after falling from 750,00ish over time). It never touched 1,000,000. Additionally, googlging FFXI/Final Fantasy 11, Million/1,000,000, and subscriptions together yields nothing.

You are wrong. Just admit it or stop talking. Honestly, I'd prefer you do the latter. Actually, to reward me for doing your bullshit research you should pledge to never attempt to argue a point again. You argue about as well as an infuriated 3rd-grader.

[Yutuyu]

http://mmogdata.voig.com/

This has more up-to-date data. Clearly shows that FFXI isn't losing subscription numbers, it's holding constant at about half a million subscribers.

[Nazrious]

http://www.mmogchart.com/

This was one of the few sources i found with actual relevant data going as far back as when FFXI came out.

so yeah I was wrong my memory from 2004 has failed me, it was 750,000.

A stable player base of 500,000 would only around 5% of WoW.
Which wouldn't make share holders happy, because remember the argument was about economics to begin with and you just knit picked on a minor irrelvant part. whether the number was 1 and 20 or 1billion and 20billion it still holds true that SE isnt doing anything, as compared to Blizz, to attract and expand the FFXI playerbase.
This friend, a term I use liberally, has even been supported by you.

FFXI is hovering quite nicely at the 500,000 mark(after falling from 750,00ish over time).

also note that 1/3 of a poppulation loss is equivalent to oh I dunno the BLACK PLAGUE.
you know that little disaster that swept through Europe and devastated a 1/3 of its population.
SO perhaps my words were erroneous, instead of mass exodus, I should have used epidemic plague of subscription loss.

but back to the topic as the only thiong this is good for is derailing, nothing more.

All that does not change the fact that SE either ignores players for years or are slower then snails when it comes to development.
In either case the solution would be to turn to players to lend a helping hand.

Hell even Taj has pointed out a few major bugs to SE and they arn't paying him a salary.
Somethign their oh so wonderful Dev team should had taken care of themselves, and yet they were not even aware of it until

a >>>>>>>>PLAYER<<<<<<<<<< pointed it out to them.

whats next everyones gonna be walking around with "big yellow smily faces" before SE realizes they need a bit of help from players and start to dish out some of the loving we loyal players so deserve?

and yes i did use a stand alone complex referance. so sue me.

[quote][You need to cite some things. Burden of proof is on the person that makes the claim, not the one challenging it.

For instance:

I am of the opinion that you're a complete idiot, and I believe said opinion is also truth. I'd like to cite 90% of your posts as proof./quote]

Actually burden of proof can vary depending upon the circumstance, wiki or ask a law prof. about Res Ipsa.

and if you really want to go by what your saying I am not the challenging party as I am the OP
thus the challenging party would be anyone who states contrary to what I stated.

so either way your wrong.

Oh and your an idiot I'll use the above quote to cite as proof.

tyvm buh bye

[Lordender]

FFXI is what it is, almost a 6 year old game (will be in may). In the past FFXI could of had 10million customers but who cares about the past? I'm worried about the present state of the game and how SE is going to continue to make their game fun for all of us who decide to stick around.

[Sekkite]

Nazrious, stop bitching about how the state of the game was several years ago and acting like that's what it is present day.

[Sargas]

Since mmogchart has come up, here's the copypaste from their analysis section on how accurate their FFXI subscription numbers are (bear in mind it hasn't been updated since mid-2006):

Final Fantasy XI (Accuracy Rating: B)

FF XI was released in Japan on May 16, 2002, and then in North America on October 29, 2003. Square-Enix used to provide specific subscriber figures fairly regularly, but in recent years they’ve become much more reserved. They’ve also provided interesting census data figures in 2004, 2005, and 2006. However, the figures from these censuses do not always line up with other sources. For example, it’s unclear if FFXI passed 500K subscribers in January 2004 or April 2004. Recent documents from Square-Enix will only confirm “over 500,000 players”, but given the ratio of characters to subscribers in previous census, the true number could be closer to 700,000. For now, I’ve decided to go with 500,000 subscribers as the most reliable estimate, until I receive further guidance from the company.

As a side note, the mmogdata site lists FFXI as peaking at 650k subscribers, not 750k, before dropping to 500k and holding steady for over a year.

As for comparison to WoW figures, remember that when FFXI came out 500k subscribers indicated a very successful MMO before WoW came out and redefined success. I can guarentee you that SE never expects to see WoW-like numbers from FFXI. I'm sure they're more than happy if it can keep a stable base of 500k or so.

[BRP]

Oh and your an idiot I'll use the above quote to cite as proof.

[Nazrious]

Oh and your an idiot I'll use the above quote to cite as proof.

well we see you have nothing left to resort to kudos for you. Quoting my insults... I mean if your going to do something put some effort into it.

From the begining of this post till now I never once was /sighing over how FFXI was I simply said that they had a much higher amount of players in the past.

What the point of this thread is, for those who just read on the derailment and didn't actually read the entire thread, to point out what SE needs, as in the future, to do not what they have, as in the past, done.

[BRP]

Look at the quote. Examine it. There is something quite wrong in the statement. (Protip: You look stupid).

[vegetaa]

...

Someone doesn't know when to stop. Seriously, go away.

[Nazrious]

Its odd how many people have the "Just accept it and move on" attitude about the lack of player involvment in FFXI.
Does SE pay you guys to come on forums and argue how omg awsome the mediocre, at best, attempts SE has made to adress issue in the game.
What do you guys get for spouting off about how paying customers who are not satisfied with the current state of things and who simply would like to see a LITTLE more communication between SE and the players who support them.
While obviously I don't get a reward for any efforts I make in trying to spurr on the player base to ask for more communication NOW, in the future perhaps some one over in SE will get a hint cus they happened to see this as a major problem.
However if all their is in threads, which try to get across to SE that they need to get more involved with their players, are other players stating how awsome everything is or Hey just live with it its ok SE will have no reason to do much of anything.

I mean take a look at some of the other post on BG.

every day some one post about this or that happened and they called a GM and the GM said oh thats to bad.

Now some are just lol and the fault of the player.

But others have by the majority of the BG comunity been seen as damn that really sucks SE should do something about that.
However in the end of it all it comes down to but "Oh well thats too bad," because its not the GMs job to help on issues like that.

off the top of my head is the whole Dynamis hourglass thing from the last surprise maint that happened yesterday.

Let me ask you then if some one has a valid claim and the GMs can't handle it then who does?
Phone support?

Who can players go to and say hey SE this is obviously wrong and some form of change should be made?

If BG can't be a reasonable place to come and post on obvious problems that need attention then where should players turn?
SE does not provide a place.

Is the general opinion then that any calls to SE to look at learn about and then eventually fix issues with the game should be directed to places like alla, or KI?
Really think about some thing as simple as the shipping delay.

People were posting like crazy because omg they had to wait two days longer then others, not talking about those people with reg code issues and the whole having an NA account in Europe or visa- versa thats just dumb/greedy on SEs part.

So people go up in arms about having to wait two days for campaign and some new content, but are fine with it taking SE YEARS to fix minor problems that players complain often enough about?

Hell I was forced to wait two days and wasn't even able to get a pc version and had to go through extra work and annoyance to be able to use an xbox reg code, but was it really so annoying or horrible that it deserved tons of threads all over the place to complain and whine about it?
No.
In the end all it came down to was that some very damn nice and decent PLAYERS made it possible for others to dl the game and use what ever they could find to take care of the annoying hassles SE left in the way.

A lot of you guys specially on BG have other PLAYERS to thank for a lot. Windower pops into mind.

Considering all of this some of you still try to work against SE working more closely or even just doing something to get Players more involved with how the game is developed.
that really is too bad. for everyone it seems.

[Catrina]

I think the problem always based on the issue of a Japanese company sustaining an ongoing game in a western market, one that people aren't done with in 2 weeks to a month.

Traditionally, Japanese are a lot more tolerant regarding flaws, or at least not as vocal, and considering that they always had the head start, if they were 70 (or whatever the cap was) when zilart appeared, they had sky to themselves and the whole latency on their side, was a lot easier for them to achieve what they wanted.

Westerners, especially Americans, as a rule, are quite the opposite, they want to win, but if they feel they can't, they are more inclined not to waste their time. SE forgot that part, not giving it the importance it required in order to satisfy their western player base. Many, many people got seriously pissed off when they say all the things they wanted overcamped, and those being by gilsellers, became the last straw for a lot of people.

As far as I see it, since the game is a lot more balanced now and they're not pissing off as many people, for now the player base is stable.

[Nazrious]

I have to agree, I think that was a big issue for why many people left, but that was more of a sorting the serious long term player from the people who were gonna play for the quick thrill and then get bored.

The problem is that while the current player base doesn't seem to be leaving in any quick fashion there arn't droves of people comign in.
Also while the Status Quo remains the way it is whith a lot of stuff to be fixed/ adressed and SE dragging their feet about it I doubt that many new players will be coming into/back to FFXI.


There has to be a slowage of leavers from FFXI and a minor increase in new comers, or the longevity of the game most of us have invested a lot of effort and time into will eventually fizzle out, and while this is practically inevitable it would be nice to prolong this for as long as possible.

Thus something so simple as a little more communication on SE's part would be a nice step in the right way.

Heck they wouldn't even have to make their own forums. All they would have to do is hire 3-6 people to make post on forums about SE approved subjects or even Dev questions and let the players do the rest of the work.

look the players have already done all the prep work for a lot of stuff now all SE has to do is step up and take advantage of the whats offered to them.

Though a video about a "day in the life of a SE Developer." would still probably funny as hell. or at least slightly amusing.