We really need Jack Bauer.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economic ... icine.html

Thats a good article about socialized medicine Max, it doesn't include testimonials though, just some basic facts from a London newspaper.

[Kuya]

Hmmm, trusting the federal government which is only looking after its interests or trusting private companies which are only looking after their interests. WHO TO TRUST!?

So Swamp, are you opposed to everything that forces you to participate?

[sephir]

If you think its unconstitutional for the government to force you to pay other peoples medical bills, then wouldn't it be unconstitutional for the fire department to force you to pay for putting out other peoples fires? Or the police for protecting YOUR neighbourhood? Or schools for the entire nations children?

I have never had a problem with the government run healthcare. I have never sat in a waiting room more than 15 minutes, my friends mom was diagnosed with cancer and got treatment within 4 hours, my dad recently had knee surgery and got to pick his own doctor and the date of his operation. I will admit there have been problems in the past, but that was because we had a PM who wanted to be like Reagan.

The system works great, just insurrance and drug companies totally trash talk it like their life depended on it when Universal healthcare is even mentioned.

[pohibaba]

If you think its unconstitutional for the government to force you to pay other peoples medical bills, then wouldn't it be unconstitutional for the fire department to force you to pay for putting out other peoples fires? Or the police for protecting YOUR neighbourhood? Or schools for the entire nations children?

The purpose of government is protection, both internal and external, so your statement makes no sense. Of course we need a police and fire departments. Public education, on the other hand, is another issue entirely.

I have never had a problem with the government run healthcare. I have never sat in a waiting room more than 15 minutes, my friends mom was diagnosed with cancer and got treatment within 4 hours, my dad recently had knee surgery and got to pick his own doctor and the date of his operation. I will admit there have been problems in the past, but that was because we had a PM who wanted to be like Reagan.

The system works great, just insurrance and drug companies totally trash talk it like their life depended on it when Universal healthcare is even mentioned.

Why is it that a large percentage of medical graduates from Europe are coming to America to work? (I had a link that I was gonna post to defend this statement, but it requires registration). It's because America is better able to pay for their doctors and for the research the doctors depend on. This is entirely because America doesn't have socialized medicine. Medical research requires a ton of money, and it simply isn't going to work if they aren't getting that money coming in from the private sector.

[Kuya]

Why is it that a large percentage of medical graduates from Europe are coming to America to work? (I had a link that I was gonna post to defend this statement, but it requires registration). It's because America is better able to pay for their doctors and for the research the doctors depend on. This is entirely because America doesn't have socialized medicine. Medical research requires a ton of money, and it simply isn't going to work if they aren't getting that money coming in from the private sector.

Good point, too bad it has very little relevance when it comes to the person receiving the medical care. A doctor winning more with a privatized medical system is a no brainer. And speaking of relevance, didn't this whole thing get started because someone erroniasly classified someone as a communist for supporting a socialist conception of the health care system? Or something equally funny?

[pohibaba]

And speaking of relevance, didn't this whole thing get started because someone erroniasly classified someone as a communist for supporting a socialist conception of the health care system? Or something equally funny?

I called her a communist, but never mentioned health care. Someone simply misunderstood my statement. In honesty, I should have called her a statist. While both terms are equally bad in my eyes, a lot of people don't understand the term statist. Thus why I usually just say communist.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Hmmm, trusting the federal government which is only looking after its interests or trusting private companies which are only looking after their interests. WHO TO TRUST!?

So Swamp, are you opposed to everything that forces you to participate?

No, just things the federal government isn't entitled to do by the constitution.

I don't know why, but I feel I should add this next statement, as it explains every belief I have. The federal government has the right to defend its borders, police its citizens, and print money. Building roads is alright to, but I don't know what category that falls under. Those are the three fundamental responsibilities of our federal government, nothing else. (I feel like I'm about to get slammed for that.)

Edit for the above: I didn't misunderstand your statement. The re-distribution of wealth is socialism/communism which is what Hillary believes in. I just used socialized medicine as an example.

[sephir]

If you listed Public education in there I would have said that you were stating Adam Smith's exact principles. In his book, the wealth of nations he stated that government should not be involved in the economy and they should only provide these few necessities: a standing army for protection, public education, and infrastructure.

But the great depression showed the fundamental flaw in Smiths work, and most western governments have adopted the "Keynes" approach to regulating the economy.

[Beckwin]

I should believe that someone who is not making a profit will take better care of me than someone who is.

yeah uh, lol. I'd believe that the institution/system whose only purpose is to take care of you over the institution/system who's primary purpose is to make money for itself.

Building roads is alright to

so if it's a) convenient for you personally, and b) out of your financial capability, it's ok? Ever heard of toll roads? Why is the government taking advantage of a business opportunity? Controlling an industry, in other words.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

If you listed Public education in there I would have said that you were stating Adam Smith's exact principles. In his book, the wealth of nations he stated that government should not be involved in the economy and they should only provide these few necessities: a standing army for protection, public education, and infrastructure.

But the great depression showed the fundamental flaw in Smiths work, and most western governments have adopted the "Keynes" approach to regulating the economy.

Oh I agree the government should provide pubic education, just not the federal government. I don't see how the fed can know whats best for every state. It would seem to me that different states have different needs, and therefor it should be left to the state, not the feds. (And the constitution doesn't say the fed can provide education.)

There is a book I want on the great depression. It claims that the great depression was a failure of government, not capitalism. Its by Milton Friedman, nobel laurate. The guys seems to have unbelievable credentials so I look forward to reading it. I have never read anything on that belief so I can't comment on it at all. But it has me intrigued enough to read that book.

Edit: Building roads isn't convenient for me lol. I don't drive from state to state, but their needs to be interstates no?

[evilbau]

didn't want to wade in too deep into this argument, ppl seem to be saying plenty haha

BUT i wanted to point out that ensuring a baseline level of health for your residents certainly sounds like 'promoting the general welfare' of this country (preamble of the u.s. constitution).

poor people who don't want to pay for helping fellow americans who can't afford it themselves.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

didn't want to wade in too deep into this argument, ppl seem to be saying plenty haha

BUT i wanted to point out that ensuring a baseline level of health for your residents certainly sounds like 'promoting the general welfare' of this country (preamble of the u.s. constitution).

poor people who don't want to pay for helping fellow americans who can't afford it themselves.

The supreme court has stated that the preamble does not assign powers to the federal government.

[Kuya]

As a Puertorican, i can personaly tell you, from knowledge of the history here: Fuck private bussiness.

(And the constitution doesn't say the fed can provide education.)

The constitution doesn't say alot of things.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

As a Puertorican, i can personaly tell you, from knowledge of the history here: Fuck private bussiness.

(And the constitution doesn't say the fed can provide education.)

The constitution doesn't say alot of things.

And the things it doesn't say, the federal government shouldn't be doing.

[Maxxthepenguin]

didn't want to wade in too deep into this argument, ppl seem to be saying plenty haha

BUT i wanted to point out that ensuring a baseline level of health for your residents certainly sounds like 'promoting the general welfare' of this country (preamble of the u.s. constitution).

poor people who don't want to pay for helping fellow americans who can't afford it themselves.

The supreme court has stated that the preamble does not assign powers to the federal government.

So are you saying that the government should not promote the general welfare?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

didn't want to wade in too deep into this argument, ppl seem to be saying plenty haha

BUT i wanted to point out that ensuring a baseline level of health for your residents certainly sounds like 'promoting the general welfare' of this country (preamble of the u.s. constitution).

poor people who don't want to pay for helping fellow americans who can't afford it themselves.

The supreme court has stated that the preamble does not assign powers to the federal government.

So are you saying that the government should not promote the general welfare?

No, in the preamble the founders are saying that in order to X, X, X, X, X, promote the general welfare, X, X, X, "we do ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America."

[Kuya]

As a Puertorican, i can personaly tell you, from knowledge of the history here: Fuck private bussiness.

(And the constitution doesn't say the fed can provide education.)

The constitution doesn't say alot of things.

And the things it doesn't say, the federal government shouldn't be doing.

The constitution also does not explecitively give the government the right to own and govern insular areas, and yet it does. Alot of what the constitution says is constantly debated.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Whats an insular area? And agreed.

[Kuya]

Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands.

[pohibaba]

As a Puertorican, i can personaly tell you, from knowledge of the history here: Fuck private bussiness.

(And the constitution doesn't say the fed can provide education.)

The constitution doesn't say alot of things.

And the things it doesn't say, the federal government shouldn't be doing.

The constitution also does not explecitively give the government the right to own and govern insular areas, and yet it does. Alot of what the constitution says is constantly debated.

A strict constitutionalist would agree, and would be quick to remedy that problem.