We really need Jack Bauer.

[Beckwin]

How can socialist institutions be wrong if America (the greatest country ever) has had them incorporated into their government for so long?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

LOL. Is that sarcasm or is that serious? 1984...? Why isn't the Soviet Union still here if its so great? Why is China changing? I'm sure I could go on and on.

So, when the United States falls, do i get to say that capitalism did it? As far as i've checked, the Russia was actually better off as a "communist" nation (some argue it was more stanilist). As for China, did you even recognize the fact that, because the US has safely globalized its capitalism, China is at a huge disadvantage, and therefore, may have to reform its outlook on communism? Is your entire enemistation of an ideology based on pure efficiency?

I'm sorry, but I refuse to argue whether or not communism is a good thing. Maybe capitalism isn't the answer our founders thought it was, but Jesus Christ, you can't honestly believe that communism is better than Capitalism. Even the fucking pilgrims figured it out.

"The experience that we had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years...that by taking away property, and bringing community into a common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing -- as if they were wiser than God. For this community [so far as it was] was found to breed much confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For young men that were most able and fit for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children without any recompense...that was thought injustice," William Bradford. (The original contract the Pilgrims had entered into with their merchant-sponsors in London called for everything they produced to go into a common store, and each member of the community was entitled to one common share. All of the land they cleared and the houses they built belong to the community as well.)

How can socialist institutions be wrong if America (the greatest country ever) has had them incorporated into their government for so long?

We are not completely socialist, yet.

[evilbau]

There is no constitutional amendment that gives congress the power to collect taxes for the purpose of giving them to someone else.

what about the unenumerated right to privacy. under a strict constructionist view very little privacy would be afforded u.s. citizens, except for search and seizure.

No, I think they would, because the government has to get a warrant for anything. (Blah blah blah insert patriot act comment here, that isn't the issue here.)

Edit: And when the founders are wrong, we get a constitutional amendment.

you need to get a warrant because of the fourth amendment, that is my point. So everything not enumerated, such as the internet, is fair game. I think any sensible person thinks we should have some federally protected right to privacy over the internet or else the govt would have too much control over what we do. My point is that it goes both ways and you need laws on the federal level in these new areas or some states will just end up fucked. It already is to some extant.

[Kuya]

I'm sorry, but I refuse to argue whether or not communism is a good thing. Maybe capitalism isn't the answer our founders thought it was, but Jesus Christ, you can't honestly believe that communism is better than Capitalism. Even the fucking pilgrims figured it out.

So you're refusing to properly elaborate your disagreement and apperent, large disdain for communism, and instead you give me a quote from some guy who existed before communism?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I think we are saying the same thing in that regard. @ evilbau

Edit: The pilgrims tried communism and it didn't work was the point of that quote. They revised the contract and tried capitalism instead.

Hell I dunno, maybe communism works if you don't have a dictator. How the hell are people going to be motivated to work for other people though? I just can't envision communism working. You said earlier based on your experiences in PR, "fuck privatization." Please elaborate because that seems to be where your desire for communism comes from.

[Kuya]

I think we are saying the same thing in that regard. @ evilbau

Edit: The pilgrims tried communism and it didn't work was the point of that quote. They revised the contract and tried capitalism instead.

Hell I dunno, maybe communism works if you don't have a dictator. How the hell are people going to be motivated to work for other people though? I just can't envision communism working. You said earlier based on your experiences in PR, "fuck privatization." Please elaborate because that seems to be where your desire for communism comes from.

Unrelated ideas. I merely find the dogmatic hate for communism unfounded as it was simply an attempt by those supporting capitalism in the US to inflict within the populus a disdain for it. Since communism is an anathema to capitalism, hence why the US, who was tied to capitalism, couldn't allow something like communism to gain too much power.

As for my comment, it was a combination of bad economic planning and a lack of power over the government (which congress is the one who possessed), they gave corporations far too much freedom with the false belief that without anything forcing them they would give back to the local area, and not try to weasel out of contribution.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I think we are saying the same thing in that regard. @ evilbau

Edit: The pilgrims tried communism and it didn't work was the point of that quote. They revised the contract and tried capitalism instead.

Hell I dunno, maybe communism works if you don't have a dictator. How the hell are people going to be motivated to work for other people though? I just can't envision communism working. You said earlier based on your experiences in PR, "fuck privatization." Please elaborate because that seems to be where your desire for communism comes from.

Unrelated ideas. I merely find the dogmatic hate for communism unfounded as it was simply an attempt by those supporting capitalism in the US to inflict within the populus a disdain for it. Since communism is an anathema to capitalism, hence why the US, who was tied to capitalism, couldn't allow something like communism to gain too much power.

As for my comment, it was a combination of bad economic planning and a lack of power over the government (which congress is the one who possessed), they gave corporations far too much freedom with the false belief that without anything forcing them they would give back to the local area, and not try to weasel out of contribution.

I see, well it worked on me then. Based on your theory there though, I see no point in continuing to debate communism because you don't believe it was given a fair chance, and until it is, you won't think other than the way you do about it.

It sounds like you're describing the Wal-Mart scenario.

[evilbau]

I think we are saying the same thing in that regard. @ evilbau

I really don't think we are but I am going to bau out of this, evilbau is no jack bauer.

[pohibaba]

I think we are saying the same thing in that regard. @ evilbau

Edit: The pilgrims tried communism and it didn't work was the point of that quote. They revised the contract and tried capitalism instead.

Hell I dunno, maybe communism works if you don't have a dictator. How the hell are people going to be motivated to work for other people though? I just can't envision communism working. You said earlier based on your experiences in PR, "fuck privatization." Please elaborate because that seems to be where your desire for communism comes from.

Unrelated ideas. I merely find the dogmatic hate for communism unfounded as it was simply an attempt by those supporting capitalism in the US to inflict within the populus a disdain for it. Since communism is an anathema to capitalism, hence why the US, who was tied to capitalism, couldn't allow something like communism to gain too much power.

As for my comment, it was a combination of bad economic planning and a lack of power over the government (which congress is the one who possessed), they gave corporations far too much freedom with the false belief that without anything forcing them they would give back to the local area, and not try to weasel out of contribution.

I suggest reading Atlas Shrugged. That's the best demonstration of the evils of communism that I've ever read. (Plus, it's just an amazing novel).

[evilbau]

I see, well it worked on me then. Based on your theory there though, I see no point in continuing to debate communism because you don't believe it was given a fair chance, and until it is, you won't think other than the way you do about it.

well said, I believe this too. Communist countries didn't inherently fail because of communism, but abuse of power (Cultural Revolution, Great Leap Foraward, Stalin's 5-year plans, the sum of soviet persecutions, etc.) but you could also say it failed because it doesn't take into account human nature like american style democracy does with its checks and balances.

[Kuya]

Oh i already know about the evils of communism. I just don't outwardly support it in it's entirety because it is too idealistic. I simply find it hilarious how communism has come to be equated to dictatorships in some countries, even though it ignores the fact that dictators often despise communism. Also funny, that this thread was about a bomb threat, and then it went to allegations of communism/socialism, discussion of socialist health care... and and the constitution.

[pohibaba]

Oh i already know about the evils of communism. I just don't outwardly support it in it's entirety because it is too idealistic. I simply find it hilarious how communism has come to be equated to dictatorships in some countries, even though it ignores the fact that dictators often despise communism. Also funny, that this thread was about a bomb threat, and then it went to allegations of communism/socialism, discussion of socialist health care... and and the constitution.

Communism is evil in theory, not simply the application of it.

[pohibaba]

actually you can make any law you want, and it'll be in effect until struck down by the courts... i.e. Patriot Act, etc.

I can also steal cars until I get caught, doesn't make it legal.

[Andarvi]

Oh i already know about the evils of communism. I just don't outwardly support it in it's entirety because it is too idealistic. I simply find it hilarious how communism has come to be equated to dictatorships in some countries, even though it ignores the fact that dictators often despise communism. Also funny, that this thread was about a bomb threat, and then it went to allegations of communism/socialism, discussion of socialist health care... and and the constitution.

Communism is evil in theory, not simply the application of it.

How is communism evil in theory? Just out of curiosity because I never thought of it this way. Could be because you know more about it than me.

[Kuya]

Oh i already know about the evils of communism. I just don't outwardly support it in it's entirety because it is too idealistic. I simply find it hilarious how communism has come to be equated to dictatorships in some countries, even though it ignores the fact that dictators often despise communism. Also funny, that this thread was about a bomb threat, and then it went to allegations of communism/socialism, discussion of socialist health care... and and the constitution.

Communism is evil in theory, not simply the application of it.

Oh well, here i thought you were offering me an objective and non biased source. Please do explain how an idelogy is evil.

[evilbau]

actually you can make any law you want, and it'll be in effect until struck down by the courts... i.e. Patriot Act, etc.

I can also steal cars until I get caught, doesn't make it legal.

horrible analogy, breaking the law is so far off from creating law to legislate new, unregulated areas of federal law which have no precedent that you must be kidding.

context is your friend

[pohibaba]

Communism requires complete surrender of personal freedom, privacy, and production for the "good of others." Can someone explain to me how that's not evil?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Oh i already know about the evils of communism. I just don't outwardly support it in it's entirety because it is too idealistic. I simply find it hilarious how communism has come to be equated to dictatorships in some countries, even though it ignores the fact that dictators often despise communism. Also funny, that this thread was about a bomb threat, and then it went to allegations of communism/socialism, discussion of socialist health care... and and the constitution.

Communism is evil in theory, not simply the application of it.

Oh well, here i thought you were offering me an objective and non biased source. Please do explain how an idelogy is evil.

There are many things that make this a great nation, (I include PR in this statement) one of those things that make us great is that your free to live anywhere you want. If communism is so great, why not give it a shot? Just save some money so you can go back and forth to see friends and family.

[Kuya]

Communism requires complete surrender of personal freedom, privacy, and production for the "good of others." Can someone explain to me how that's not evil?

No, that's not evil. It's called characteristics that other political ideologies share. And an extreme version of Marx's ideology, that isn't even failthful to the original and is riddled with biased intent.

[evilbau]

Communism requires complete surrender of personal freedom, privacy, and production for the "good of others." Can someone explain to me how that's not evil?

I don't see it as inherently evil. Subverting oneself for the greater good is embedded in a lot of cultures, even our own: "serve your country in the armed forces", "buy made in america", taxes. It would be more insightful for you to explain why it is evil.