Campaign Mobs: OMG DID YOU HEAR QUADAVS ARE FIXED?

[Rocl]

Discuss.

EDIT:
12/05/07 Thanks SE! :D

[Daimen-G]

well they are

[Stromgarde]

To paraphrase my post in the other thread, Gho'Bu Softstep or whatever his name is cheats so bad he can kill 30 people in 5 seconds. Depending on whether or not people are running to the winds to avoid his heavy damage unblinkable RANGED AoE attack.

[Kaisha]

To paraphrase my post in the other thread, Gho'Bu Softstep or whatever his name is cheats so bad he can kill 30 people in 5 seconds. Depending on whether or not people are running to the winds to avoid his heavy damage unblinkable RANGED AoE attack.

So he's the new Lamia #2 then?

[Casey_]

Discuss.

I heard you like mud..kips..

But yeah i heard they're hard and I also heard one raping my face a few minutes ago. I enjoyed that so much <3

in other news mr.rocl I think i saw some graffiti going to walnut creek and it said "Rocl" on the side of the bridge.

Also. stuff

[Priran]

To paraphrase my post in the other thread, Gho'Bu Softstep or whatever his name is cheats so bad he can kill 30 people in 5 seconds. Depending on whether or not people are running to the winds to avoid his heavy damage unblinkable RANGED AoE attack.

Wow, that sounds almost exactly like the ranged, unblinkable, unresistable, flat 1000 damage AoE WS Yag NMs have.

From the other thread:

Unless you think I can solo them all, no such luck. Like I said, there's apparently something intriguing about the architecture of their fort or something because no one does anything but STARE.

Because it fucking HURTS to fight them! Christ almighty -- if you want to prove a point, you're failing at every turn. People are hesitant to engage because they are BROKEN! Why else would people NOT want to get as much xp as humanly possible? What else are they out there for -- the new flowers on the ground don't look that pretty.

Then why the fuck are they there? My point is that it's not the quadav's fault the quadav are so strong, it's that no one is joining Bastok and the ones who do aren't getting shit done.

btw Jugner isn't the Grauberg Equivalent, Vunkerl Inlet is, as is Fort NagaNaga (Sorry that's what I call it )

Jugner and Grauberg are second zone away from the city. Fort, Inlet, and Grauberg are just the new zones.

[Daimen-G]

Yag NMs don't randomly annul all NPC attacks.

This argument kind of sucks though.

[Kaylia]

Jugner and Grauberg are second zone away from the city. Fort, Inlet, and Grauberg are just the new zones.

Except Jugner and Meriphataud are one map away from beastman dungeon and that's what matter.

Grauberg = Vunk = Fort
Jugner = Pashlow = Meri
Battalia= Ronlanbery = Saur
Eld= Garlaige = Crawler nest
Ronfaure = Saru = Gusta



And quadav are stronger because their morals is higher probably. Indirectly, less people go fight them because they are harder, and it makes most fight look even harder.

[Priran]

Except Jugner and Meriphataud are one map away from beastman dungeon and that's what matter.

oh well gee if I had known that just saying that my criterion was "what mattered" made it so then I would have said it

[Aymee]

We've veered more than a little off-course here... so much so Rocl made a new thread while I was writing this! This discussion isn't about if you can or should be able to solo the new mobs. That's kinda the flaming that is what made the normal Campaign thread pain.

Since we're starting over in a new thread, let's use the scientific method on this issue:

The discussion is whether or not a collective group of players and NPCs can fight off (or wipe out) a strong Quadav attack. In the middle of screaming at one another, it seems we've all forgotten this is the true issue and not what 1 mob is more difficult than another or who's a better soloer. This discussion is regardless of zone, though Rolanberry and Grauberg seem extra harsh based on player reports. Also, this is an overall view, it is not true on all servers and of all players. However, it is quite obviously the majority as determined by posts, group opinion and data collected from a variety of servers. No one solution is ever 'the' answer to anything, but yea we have to play to the average here.

What we've discovered is that it makes no sense that while people of all 3 nations are gathered to fight, they are far less likely to survive a Quadav attack and can rather easily repel an Orc or Yagudo attack by comparison. Again, this is an overall view and general consensus. Certain leader NMs might make things easier/harder in some cases.

So the logical question to ask is "why can't a group of players fight off the turtles as well, if at all?" It is not the talent or abilities of players from whatever nation, since people from all nations come to all campaign battles and the results always end up the same. Personal attacks or attacks on player/nation abilities are thus not relevant. It is assumed there is enough variety of players of jobs and abilities of all three nations across all servers that any deviation is statistically insignificant. Again, we are discussing the overall situation.

Having eliminated player variables, the following ideas are left to possibly help explain our problem:
1- Quadav have, on average, a stronger defense and/or HP.
2- Quadav have particular job traits or TP abilities which may make them substantially more difficult to kill.
3- The zones of Quadav attack have fundamental design problems which make them more difficult to defend or fight in.
4- The zones of Quadav attacks are not desirable for players to travel to and fight in.
5- There is an inherent weakness in Bastok NPC soldiers in terms of jobs.
6- There is an inherent weakness in Bastok NPC soldiers in terms of AI.
7- Player strategies are lacking in how to deal with Quadav attacks.
8- There is a player 'x-factor' of unpredictability that is skewing results.
9- Quadav are benefiting from high morale/prosperity.
10- Any combination of the above, and open to new ideas.

Now let's theorize over all those:
1- Likely. It seems to vary a little, but I haven't seen anyone claim that they can beat up a Quadav as easily as an Orc or Yagudo.
2- They have always had normal defense boost TP move, which can be dispelled. However, diamond shell eliminates all physical dmg taken in the rear 270 degrees of the mob. This is a substantially more disabling TP move in terms of making a mob killable than any posessed by Orcs or Yagudo. Knockback+Gravity AOE is annoying, but not a killer by itself. There are the really strong TP moves that basically 1-shot anyone, but all beastmen have that ability.
3- Though the outpost at the inlet and the interior of the fort are lovely defensive designs and have some advantages, because of the open-area fighting style in XI there is nothing that would defaultly make fighting in NGust, Grauberg, Pashhow or Rolanberry any harder than any other zone.
4- Though nothing is stopping players from entering these zones, it cannot be denied that none of the places mentioned are exactly popular for people to spend their free time in. No farming, no merits. However, this can be generally discluded as of the last update since, for the most part, there is an ample supply of players ready to teleport to any fighting zone.
5- Debatable. 1st Musketeers seem very strong, and 3rd Legionaries seem sound tactically. Past this, none of the squads seem to be able to do much damage to Quadav and are much more suited for dying.
6- Yes. NPCs are completely unable to deal with Diamond shell. This is a fundamental flaw in the campaign NPC AI system and a gaping hole in campaign as a whole, to make the majority of NPC forces of one nation useless.
7- Kiting has been attempted, sleepga, mob splitting, etc. Basically every mob strategy used on Orc/Yagudo/any other mob in any other place/mobs in large-attack areas such as dynamis ...has already been attempted, and with no substantial improvement in victory conditions.
8- It may well be true that 'decked' people like many who'd post here would have a better chance of a successful campaign battle while grouped together versus 'normal' players, but if you were to admit that it required only the best of the best gear on the best of the best players to stand any chance, by definition you are admitting that Quadav are a much more substantial challenge.
9- Which came first, the chicken or the egg? It's impossible to use Quadav morale as a factor in this discussion because we have way to prove if it's Quadav victories that result in high morale, or if it's high morale that makes attacks stronger, or if the two spin upwards together, etc. Whatever the starting point was, it's pretty obvious that it's impossible to change the formula, and even on servers where Quadav have some kind of dent in their morale the fights aren't being reported as any easier.
10- This thread was made so that people could tag on opinions, so by all means, please do.

Summary:
3&4 easily written off. 8 is dismissed via the same logic of player skill discussed in the beginning. 5 likely requires more research and information on Bastok platoons (I certainly don't know everything about them)... I'd say the same of 7 but that seems to have been exhausted already. 1&2 both seem to toss some validity into the problem. #6 is more the result of 1&2 and what happens when features are not playtested or thought out well in development. Sadly, development team oversight has resulted in... some issues.
If there is any one thing that needs to be adjusted, it is likely the uselessness of Bastok NPCs in the face of Diamond shell, when you combine the more rational points.

My conclusion:
#6 > #2 > #1
Toss diamond shell to give the Bastok NPCs a fighting chance (and players, too... so we don't have to stand in front and eat an easy 1-shot). We'll see if that changes much after that. I have a feeling it's not going to totally improve things, but any NPC assistance and/or less instantaneous alliance wiping would be better than present at the vast majority of Bastokan area battles. Quadav having comperable DEF/VIT ratings as their beastmen counterparts would also be greatly appreciated.

What I'd love to see:
Make any kind of change, and reset all the campaign zones to their original status so we can fight it out 'properly' this time. Give CN to Windy, Citadel to Sandy and Necropolis to Bastok like the storyline discusses them, and not just give each nation control the dungeon that's closest to their city. Bad development team, bad. Shame on you.


Yay! Evaluated without malice toward any other person or poster. The arguing is making my head hurt.

Edit: I realized I displayed malice toward the development team, though I don't consider them living beings with a soul or any kinds, so I'll yell at them plenty when they do something insanely stupid.
Further Add-on to Edit: Yes, I have a somewhat biased opinion in this whole affair so no need to flame me on that. Instead of just shouting out my immediate reaction I figured I'd save people the trouble of staying up all night thinking about what point they'd like to make by putting together everything I've read. That, and reading a post this long should make you tired anyway. Go to bed!

[Halion]

Conqueror Bakgodek who compared to the other hard bosses is really not that bad at all. He counters hard, but the rest of his troop is normal strength and his defense is not even so high as regular mobs

I lol'd

Outside of Quadav attacks this is the hardest boss I have seen personally and he wasn't that hard. Max single damage I saw was ~400 and his AoE wasn't very damaging at all. There were 10-15 PCs at this fight and a legion of 10 Elvaan NPCs, I did not see a special leader with them but it might just have been hidden in the swarm, and no one died except one THF who had no shadows and no healer. Now on the flip side my first experience with a Quadav boss was Ore Lob thwacking Striking Bull for 3350 damage. This is MY EXPERIENCE, it is not funny, it is a factual observation.

I'll repeat, the main problem is not that omg Bastok sucks no one plays for them etc, because 90% of the people who do Campaign just rush to it wherever it is and do not ONLY go to their own nation. Nor is the problem most likely that omg the other nations have it so EZ all the time (although diamond shell is a bit unfair considering you cannot stop half the NPCs from attacking at a bad angle), I haven't personally seen the hard troops from them so I can't comment much on hard Quadav versus hard Yagudo and Orc. The problem imo is that the incredibly hard troops attack Bastok areas more often than other nation areas making it much harder for the people of all nations to defend them. I really don't think it's likely that the jobs or AI of Bastok NPCs are that much unbalanced, a lot of that is related to nation strategy.

[Kaylia]

Except Jugner and Meriphataud are one map away from beastman dungeon and that's what matter.

oh well gee if I had known that just saying that my criterion was "what mattered" made it so then I would have said it

Do I really need to point you out why your "distance from main city" criteria is retarded when you say "jugner is the equivalent of grauberg"? Just take a look at the beastman domination in the 3 area next to their stronghold

[Kkel]

Bakodek is indeed a beast, but i'm not so sure he's the hardest of the Orcs. I watched the San d'Orian Aegis WHM NPC solo Bakodek with ease. By comparison, today i watched Battlemaster Vatgit crush a dozen NPC PLDs and a named WHM(?) NPC without much effort. Most San d'Orians also know the pain that is One-Eyed Gwajboj's absurdly long range, 600+ damage, Battle Dances. Ol' One-Eye's regular melee hits are pretty rough too, and he always runs at 12%+ speed.

[kuronosan]

Bakodek is indeed a beast, but i'm not so sure he's the hardest of the Orcs. I watched the San d'Orian Aegis WHM NPC solo Bakodek with ease. By comparison, today i watched Battlemaster Vatgit crush a dozen NPC PLDs and a named WHM(?) NPC without much effort. Most San d'Orians also know the pain that is One-Eyed Gwajboj's absurdly long range, 600+ damage, Battle Dances. Ol' One-Eye's regular melee hits are pretty rough too, and he always runs at 12%+ speed.

I happened to be running by on my level 15 scholar and got hit by that for about 6000 damage.

[Goon]

We really shouldn't be discussing about the demi-god like appearance the Quadavs give off, but we should be seperating the different armies they break off into. We've starting doing so, but we really haven't made much of an effort to devise a plan to where we could defeat or even stall them until they flee (at least from what I've been reading).

We all know (well most of us) know that each army is tiered in strength, there is at least 1 army per Tribe that is far too pitiful to put up a fight with and from there escalates exponentially in strength.

I know from the Orcish Hosts we have the following:
The Gutrenders: These are the weaklings of the tribe, specialize in Ranged attacks and have no accuracy towards a level 72 Summoner when Sigil is active. I'm rather unsure who their leader is, but I believe it's a Warmachine.
Gravemakers: Specialize in Black Magic, they cannot hold their ground too well, I believe they are a step up from the Gutrenders. Led by Dirtyhanded Gochakzuk who is easily solo'd by a Summoner.
Dissmemberment Brigade: A group of Monks who are led by none other than Poisonhand Gnadgad. I've held 4 of them with Blue Mage before I... d/c'd... ._.
The Clan Reapers: These guys are the second strongest group. They could be easily handled by a group of people with at least 1 or 2 Sleepers. They are led by Conquerer Bagodek who has a 100% Add Effect that drains about 10 TP.
Clan Longtooth: These guys are almost on par with one of the higher tier Quadavs, the difference? The lack of defense makes them easier to over come. What makes them tough is their massive evasion and the ability to Triple Attack and Counter for 300 damage at a time. The challenge is to be able to somehow endure their hits so that you could KO the leader.

Perhaps if we think in this manner, we could seperate the weak from the strong and focus on the weak first so they wont become a nuissance for when we attempt the strong. I would suggest a horde of Sneak Attacks, however their defensive backs makes them impervious to such a tactic, and I know Head Butt stun has no effect on the higher tiered Beastmen, or if it does, the proc rate is too low to matter.

Let's try to get an analysis of the Quadavs posted here if at all possible. Which are strong and which are weak?

[Kaylia]

Isnt there 2 squad of rng? A really weak one leaded by 3rd eyed something NM, and another with that warmachine?

While we are at it, that warmachine (like every warmachine I think) seem to have a "fafnir breath" ws that deal between 100 and 1500. Peole shouldnt stay in front of it

[Aerin]

Bo'Dho Hundredfist and his band of Waughroon Heavyshells are pretty brutal. They have a very high defense and hit you for about 300-400+ dmg.

Bo'Dho uses a move called The Wrath of Gu'Dha that's like an AoE shockwave, can do 200-600+ dmg and adds on Gravity.

No'Mho Crimsonarmor and his guards are pretty weak, they seem like an EP-DC mob at 75.

Go'Bhu's Elite Raider's were hard too, they hit for 200-300+ dmg and have some hard armor.

I wish there were mobs that did 100-200 dmg each, something more in the middle. Now your choice in Campaign is to either rape or get raped, nothing in between.

[Aymee]

Curious... What do the rest of you think about the Kindred attacks?

I've seen 3...
--A demon that brings in a train of 8(?) dark elementals. He's weak but the elementals have a ludicrous defense. That said, I can peel one off and solo it on NIN though it takes about 10min...
--A eyeball that calls Gnat pets. Gnats fed endless TP by melees is annoying.
--A Elf BLM (in BLM AF) followed around by a bunch of RDM Formor. These scare the hell out of me--only seen them twice. They ran up to fortifications and like 2 rounds of nukes and they were off.

Honestly, if I'm in NGust defending, I'm praying the demon or eyeball shows. I was out with a friend tonight trying to explain campaign to her (it was her first fight) in NGust. We waited about 20min for an attack. I warned her in advance that it was Quadav and that she should keep her RR up given the incredibly high chance of painful repeated death. The fact that a MNK friend in LS called out getting 1-shot by ore lob in rolanberry for 3100ish was a tidbit demoralizing.

The demon came! ...Versus about 15 defenders and 0 NPCs. Oh thank god. Halfway through the elementals a Quadav platoon showed. The leader was a DRK (spammed absorb spells endlessly at me). I think the others were DRKs as well. I'm 90% certain this is the No'Mho Crimsonarmor squad Aerin listed. Sheer numbers were pounding on the main defending cluster (I learned long ago that it's much safer to peel off something and kill it away in a small group), then the darndest thing happened. NPC reinforcements ACTUALLY came. The absolutely awesome 1st Musketeers showed in their RDM AF, Sallets and guns, and their leader spamming relic Gun WS self-darkness chaining and chopping down the turtles in about 15 seconds. I'm convinced this is the only Bastok platoon with any real strength--and it's all-female, ha!

...They warped out as the last few turtles ran away. Why do they warp away from the OP, whereas defenders in Ronf and Sara camp the OPs like 1-4 platoons at a time? I must be missing part of how the system works.
Anyway, hey. Score the first and only win in a Bastok zone I saw in 3 hours tonight. All it took was the weakest kindred leader with the easiest pets and the wussiest Quadav legion, and even then NPC reinforcements had to come in to save about 25 well-armed defenders. The issue with these mobs wasn't that they were 'hard', they just took freaking forever to kill. The dark elemental pets are extra slow, but meleeing the turtles wasn't exactly fast either. It took the strong NPC guns to take them down. At least bullets seem to ignore the defense buffs well enough......

A bit earlier Bo'Doh showed in Grauberg. At least I think it was him, I just kinda blur together Quadav names. The group was a bunch of gold-plated psycho-Quadav that all seemed to have +movement speed and had infinite sleep resist. Leader himself had this really sick looking GAX/Pole thing with a thousand barbs on it. My WAR needs one of those. Zero NPC defenders, though it wouldn't have mattered. It took <1min for them to run around the 30 or so defenders on the hill and totally wiped us. I'm too lazy at 4am to post a screenshot. It just took 1x Wrath to wipe shadows of NINs and /NINs and some zergish melee hits from the normal mobs, and with grav on there was zero chance of getting away even with ninboots. Although it seems getting 2-shot by Bo'Doh and RRing can score you about 300exp/200notes.
...btw, I'm pretty sure the Wrath TP move is the same as the Quadav special TP move used by NMs in Dyna-Bastok and Beau. Only that here it'll wipe 4 shadows on a NIN main, instead of 2 on a nin sub.

In short, I'm kinda in agreement Aerin on the rape-or-be-raped bit. Though it seems like all the Yagudo squads are really weak and small in number especially in contrast to the turtles. The strongest I've seen was like a group of 6 NINs with brutal evasion. Even so, they were easily tankable and dispatched quickly. Honestly I don't understand this--assaulting one of the billion watchtowers in Mountains Galesmouth with the sets of 8 VTish Yagudo around them (NINs--Executers, SAMs--Templar knights, High Preists--WHMs, BRD, SMN) seems a more difficult task than defending vs a raiding party.
On the flip side, Junger and Pashhow are comically undefended with just a few T-VT defenders by the stronghold zonelines, instead of half a zone full of them. Walking up to the front door of Oz is absolutely hillarious compared to the other two. Why are the strongest Quadav out circling the Rolanberry watchtower and leaving DC-T turtles at home? *Shrugs* Maybe this is SE's way of saying only Yagudo have a intelligent long-term battle strategy to conserve strength and numbers, lol. If they leave a hundred VTs outside as scouts, inside is going to be epic.
Davoi/Beaudeaux will be just as brutal I'm sure, but wth I'm not going into turtleland unless I get bribed. Welcome back to the insane trains of 2004, only with lvl85+ turtles instead of lvl30s.

[Almalexia]

I've seen 3...
--A demon that brings in a train of 8(?) dark elementals. He's weak but the elementals have a ludicrous defense. That said, I can peel one off and solo it on NIN though it takes about 10min...
--A eyeball that calls Gnat pets. Gnats fed endless TP by melees is annoying.
--A Elf BLM (in BLM AF) followed around by a bunch of RDM Formor. These scare the hell out of me--only seen them twice. They ran up to fortifications and like 2 rounds of nukes and they were off.

Another is Shadowhorn, Taurus NM, with an army of Jotunn gigas.

I'm amused at how the forces closest to the Shadow Lord have less morale than the Quadav. Kindred forces are pretty easy kills.

[Daimen-G]

I think the Kindred Forces' troops are about ten times as nasty as the NMs themselves- maybe it's just because they always show up at bad times, but I can't freaking stand Shadoweye Gnats.