Endgame vs Quazi-Endgame Anger -- Debate between old friends

[Aymee]

So I had an old friend come back a few weeks ago... 3+ years ago she'd given up here character on my server and started it anew on Phoenix, then transfered herself back over. She's far from a serious player, but she takes pride in what she does and she always puts in good effort--probably does as well as possible when limited by lack of sky gear for WAR.

I was one of the original people to go into career WAR on my server ages ago... you know, back in the days where you could play like a total idiot by today's standards but people respected you just because you were 5lvls higher than they were and you had the spare gil for mithkabobs! Full AF set = master of your job. Rawr. Anyway, at the time, in the early 60s I started to ponder what a SAM sub might do for GAX, which I was very much starting to enjoy (yes, even over Rampage). So wth, I do SAM 1-37 in a week and start to sub it. It confuses the hell out of people, though given the slow kills and low chains of the day, literally a bonus WS in the form of a Full Break was welcomed when I could still SC later on. I had some respect. It was hot. This friend in particular seemed interested in the /SAM idea. Don't be confused, this was way way before any of the 'modern' changes to SAM and if you were anything but sam/rng people laughed. She decided to war/thf sturmwind to 60 and war/sam above that.

...She then disappears for 2 years. Comes back a few weeks ago, an eager 75WAR/SAM still gushing over the old lessons I gave and how happy she's ended up with it, even if no one understands it and lawls at anything but Rampage. To me, /SAM was always a viable sub with GAX post-60 (to Ni at 74, at least, for decoburn in its infancy), as a Raging Rush with acc gear could match a rampage. Back then, if I /sea All WAR 60- I'd always be the only WAR/SAM. Today, running a search of /sea All WAR 75 gives me two results. Me, and my old friend. This saddens me greatly.

It took a few days, but we finally caught up in Whitegate one evening. She remembers my perfectionist ways and was curious to see what my gear looked like now for WAR/SAM. She shows up the same. Considering her lack of funds (she'd temporarily quit during the glory days of ODS and ige madness) and zero interesting in blowing time in sky or sea, it was good. Ohat, Byrnie and Hauberk, pallas, RK Legs, AF feet, good accessories... toting a Berserk's axe. Very solid for the more casual player, and with merits more than able to keep up with most lazy players on the more serious end of things. She said she was quite proud of it and I agreed. Gearswap gear for WS even. I was amazed one person ever listened to my rambling back then (though I keep finding out I've had a weird reputation for ages), and I was glad to see what she was doing. Even though she was WAR/SAM mostly she still had axe and sword skilled on hopes of getting a joy at some point, along with NIN THF and WHM subs. Intelligent decisions. Quite like me.

...So she wants to see my TP gear.
((For the record, I admit I use some unconventional stuff that some would laugh at, but I've been refining this for years. I go with what's proven itself for me with my merit setup.))
I equip it. Perdu Voulge, Unicorn feet, haidate, osode or askar body, alkys, Askar head. Swift belt, fort torque, pixie and brutal earrings, ull and rajas rings, foragers. Generally using Carbonara for food for +attk/+storeTP. I explain that since I don't have access to adaberk this is probably as good as it's going to get except for when my damn Askar hands eventually drop.

She asks to see WS swap, which isn't more than Heca feet, conte legs and a flame ring, since no access to n.leg or e.leg. To me, sign of an intelligent gearset is when swapping TP to WS is almost superficial. Seriously though, none of this is mindblowing gear and at all unique perhaps maybe the askar helm, and the conte legs are only a minor bonus (and were a gift from someone quitting).

...She asks about accuracy issues. I claim I never have trouble between Hasso, lvl8 GAX and fort torque. Still, wants to see acc gear. Swap to Amir feet, e.hand and potent belt. That's it. Still have hauby and ohat in reserve but I wear them <1% of the time. There's enough DEX in the rest of the gear to give a sick accuracy bonus nearing hardcap even with the 4:3 nerf and attk food. Hell, I thought it was fine at 2:1 even. The +skill from merits/torque are the biggest help.

...Tanking gear? Relic hands, askar feet, warwolf, herc ring. Askar feet somewhat uncommon yet, but it's far from a make-or-break equip. Getting relic hands out of jeuno is comically easy now and even then not a make-or-break. WAR does get most hate from dmg dealt, after all.

Very quickly, she cries selling out to Endgame at me. I take some offense to this... I've happily been kings free for over 2 years now, and I take pride in trying to get the best gear available without having to dive into the more time consuming and 'hardcore' endgame stuff. This is the main reason I'm a total assault/Nyzul addict.

In fact, the only things I even have from kings are Pixie Earring and E.hand that I had to literally beg for as a long-term LS member over new arrivals. No heca cap or subligar. No E.leg. No adaberk. No ridill. Basically, I learned long ago now that I did not enjoy spending my time in a full-blow endgame LS (which at the time did still include sky, LS-oriented dynamis, taking 3 hours to kill Tia, and desperately trying to figure out sea--and failing). Over the course of 1 year of fairly constant effort I slowly pieced together a handful of useful drops... Haidate, basic 3 heca abjs, a few dynamis things. The generally junked skote and kabuto. Supp via an LS event of DM, Brutal earring via buying coins since I freaking hated Limbus and WAR AF+1 is awful.

I was essentially LSless for 18 months besides a few friends until I stumbled into a sky LS this summer. Fact of the matter is, sky isn't really endgame now........ well, you could make an argument it is in some respects, but it's laughable in difficulty. Hell, the only drop I needed out of sky was shura haidate for my NIN and SAM--99% of my doing any sky was to goof off with friends. Same deal with starting Dynamis again. We do sea like one night a month, though I was lucky enough to pick up the fort torque (only rare reward out of this LS in 6 months).

...So my friends asks me why I went back to waste time on endgame. She makes valid points against it--time spent, massive drama, questionable colleagues, etc. All the old and still persistent problem. I'm not disagreeing with any of this, which is why I insist I'm staying out of real endgame. I don't consider sky 1-2 evenings a week for 2 hours, 1 dynamis a week, 3 kirins popped every 2 weeks and one night of sea a month to be endgame now. All this stuff has been played out to death so much so that amateurs can handle it with little hassle. Hell--if RMT can do it with reliability, actual players should have no issues.

She's still skeptical. Then she realizes that Askar set comes from Nyzul assault, and that I needed Assault rank9 for the Voulge. Biiiiiig fuss over my caving to endgame. I'm not buying it. Assault to me is something that SE put in to give any player access to any variety of gears. It's not special or unique to people serious about endgame. Anyone can do it, it's free. Most of it is not that challenging but can be fun. Some of the rewards are very good and stuff I'll probably never sell or toss as ex/rare gear. ...Basically, something with free and open access to all players doesn't mean endgame to me. Kings? Limited supply. Salvage? Luck elements, drama elements, major gil investment for the serious stuff, dedicated and trustworthy alliance to enter with. Tia/Cerb/Khim? Kings, just less frequent. Assault? Free access to all at any time. Pickup groups or statics work fine.

Dead set on her opinion, she starts pushing me on being careful about trusting people I'm close to in my 'endgame activities'. I try explaining that my Assault static [which I take massive pride in] has been working for over 6 months, we've done Nyzul to 100 four times, are approaching full sets of preferred armors for everyone, and just for kicks we're working toward Captain from the normal assaults. Again, more warnings of drama. That I should be concerned about people getting drops and bolting. Explaining that I trust the 5 people in my static more than anyone else on the server is falling on deaf ears. I admit we've had drama but it's never killed us. I explain that all our drops are on an honor system and despite being leader I never force people to lot/pass anything--so any amount of greed some might have isn't resulting in people getting screwed over. I trust them all to do the right thing, and this has always worked. Still, despite this all, just tons of heat about endgame drama.

She just doesn't buy a word of it. I try explaining what my more prized pieces of gear are and how you can obtain them:

Swift belt: 1PT NM. Likely requires a few repeats but a great reward.
Rajas and Ull: CoP and ToAU missions are so easy that any pickup group should be able to handle them, except maybe Alexander BC. ...All of both mission sets doable in <2 weeks with some solid effort.
Osode and Haidate: Put in a few months of effort into a sky LS and a WAR will be on the lot list for this stuff in no time. This wasn't as much of a hastle for me because I spread out my sky time over 12-18 months instead of rushing it all.
Askar: 100% free from assault. Nyzul can be really hard, but any organized and intelligent group of people can do it. Since it's like any other assault, you do it when you have time and can do it with friends when you all agree you have time. Hell, even my Askar helm is no longer that unique an item *sigh*
Accessories: Chiv chain, potent belt... free via AP. PCC is far from a requirement.
Supp: Free via DM. Pickup groups are around, or ask to tag onto some LS' run.
Brutal: Do limbus over time, buy coins, or bum them from people (most long-time Limbus people have tons).
Voulge: Free from Assault Rank 9. ...And if you don't have 48000IS after this much time with ToAU available, I don't know what to tell you. Rank 9 can be done from scratch in 3 months if you can scrape a static together, and you'll have AP for other useful things in the process.
Foragers and Maneater: Free from ENM.
Unicorn feet: Not a necessity for a more casual player. Amir boots are fine, which are free from assault in a zone friendly for pickup PTs.
Juggernaut: A trophy item. I feel kinda silly having it but I'll never sell it. Woods/Maneater is essentially on par for dual axes. ...Oh, and getting a Woods from KSNM is totally doable.
Pallas/Alkys: Might need to buy, though still farmable if you wish. Not that expensive anymore.
Flame Ring[s]: Pretty cheap now. Or just get ruby rings... meh.
Triumphs: Even I don't own these, which as a career WAR makes me lazy. Brutal is never bad to leave on, and I use fenrir's day and vampire night.


Only 3 things that require some kind of special effort into the realm of 'limited supply':
Pixie Earring: KB.
E.hand: Faf
Fort Torque: Sea can be a pain in the ass with low droprates.

So I ask this to any of you reading-- where's the line between endgame and just quazi-endgame activities? Frankly, I don't think anything I do now to be real Endgame. I have my scheduling worked out to where I can be on for ~3 hours ~3 days a week if I wish and still cover everything I want. Anything else is just maybe merit, random helping people, campaign, random besieged, campaign, etc. Stuff you can enter and leave as your schedule allows. No windows. No ToD concerns. No 3 hour camping.

I know she's just trying to watch out for me by warning me about the megadrama in a lot of things, but it's not like I haven't seen it before--and I freaking hate it. I've deliberately put myself in a situation where I see as little of it as possible. I'm not upset with her for questioning/worrying about my actions, but I think she has a misconception of what 'endgame' really means for serious players. Just because I've been here for 4 damn years now doesn't mean I'm a diehard hardcore player. I might try to be the best WAR (and NIN and SAM) I can be, but the hell if I'll waste all my free time and put my sanity on the line for it.


The key to this all if you're stressed by endgame or quazi-endgame is to spread it out over time. My list of total gear dragged on awhile, but that's across ~18 months of HNMLS work and 1yr+ of ToAU effort. Divide that out and it's not that that massive a time investment. I could have gone far far farther and camped every king every day in hopes of the rarer abjs and a ridill, but didn't.
The other major issue is doing all this stuff with people you trust. Drama is everywhere and it's basically impossible to avoid completely, but working together in activities that are 100% repeatable at no cost (re: Assault) means there's no reason people have to get in a huff over drops or appraised stuff if you keep working at it.

Right now I'm not entirely sure what to say to her. I see her in the same areas as I (BastokS, running around JungerS for campaign, camping AH in whitegate, etc.)... really our normal day-to-day stuff seems very similar. I just happen to run a dedicated assault static I'm damn proud of and will defend to the end as being as accomplished as any other on my server. Perhaps you can simplify this down into... Is an assault static really endgame? Is sky and dynamis for kicks endgame? Idunno. I'd say no and that I'm trying to protect myself from drama overload while keeping myself entertained... she thinks overwise.

Thoughts?
(Oh, and thanks for reading this all, lol)

[joft]

i'm not reading that

[Tajin]

Perhaps you can simplify this down into: I'm trying to protect myself from drama overload while keeping myself entertained.

Bolded part: Some people like their drama so it goes along with being in the pits everyday.

Keeping yourself entertained is what everything comes down to, regardless of you only doing chocobo racing, or H.E.L.M.

As for the endgame term, I think of endgame as whichever event that requires of you using your abilities/skill/gear to all its potential. So, as the game gets more events to do, my view of what is endgame will change:

-Sky <---- Not endgame, except maybe Kirin (if only due to the fact you need some people to kill it).
-Sea <---- Higher level Jailers can be considered endgame, along with small manned lower tiers.
-Kings <--- Hardly the dangerous scary beasts anymore (A Campaing NM is harder than fafnir <.< )
-CoP Wyrms <---- Still fun fights regardless of rewards.
-Dynamis <--- Boring piece of shit.
-Einherjar <--- Looking for LS
-Nyzul <--- Requieres some brains or teamwork definitely endgame in my book.
-Assaults <--- While some are a no brainer, Attempting them capped or with less members definitely is a challenging and fun activity.
-Salvage <--- Good stuff, definitely endgame.
-Raiding Beastmen strongholds - I dont know any LS that does this kind of thing (Except maybe JPs when recovering A. Candy) In ToAU areas the NM rewards are shituational at best, so it hardly is an incentive to get one or two alliances together and go rape dungeons. I'd love to do this, hell if I did dynamis twice a week, I would gladly trade 1 Dynamis run for this.

[Starr]

I've happily been kings free for over 2 years now

Did it take rehab? Love how you speak as if it's heroin or something.

[Celebrindor]

In a sense, all of it is endgame, and none of it is as well.....in terms of your gear.

As you accurately pointed out, almost all the gear you have can be done with relative ease without the drama associated with the megashells of 2005-06. Hell, I'm a RDM main and got my Swift belt out of sheer luck as 5 friends and I were subligar hunting for a few weeks and figured we'd kill a few Taurus for the sake of mixing it up, got some codex's and went to town.

Then again, how many of your servers megashells are still in existence? You know, from when kiting Kirin with an alliance of BLMs and SMNs burning him down while the melees got to play with CFH'ed minis and it took 3 hours to beat him, or City dynamis runs of 60+ people were the common? I know on pandemonium they are few and far between these days.

To me, the term endgame (in its negative connotations that is) now only applies to the volume of endgame activities you do, not a specific group of activities that separate the hardcore versus the casual, well geared players. Yes, Salvage, Einherjar, Kings and CoP dynamis remain as some semblance of mystic endgame versus more casual endgame (limbus, regular dynamis, nyzul for example).....but really all most things of value take these days are a group of 6-14 educated players willing to work together- outside of DL wins, JoL, and CoP wyrm kills (for those of us mere mortals who need more people, I know these have been done in lowman situations quite amazingly).

So did you "sell out", as you apparently worry about? Shit is situational. Did you take drops and bolt, or play the favoritism game to get what you have? Or did you enjoy the run up to be able to equip what you have? Selling out isn't about the fact that you have gear versus not having it- its about how did you get it. Case in point- my first delving into endgame in 2005 (began playing in Feb. of that year, joined my first "endgame" shell in Sept '05) was with a casual Sky shell that was just beginning. Still in existence to this day, and while I need nothing from Sky, I still enjoy running with them to events to help others just beginning the game- we were a home for a casual player who wanted a shot at b. haidates, z.mitts, and kirin drops. And we've remained so. Drama? Very little over 2 years. Selling out? Hardly. And shells exist like this for almost every endgame event I can think of.

Tell her to experience what you have before judging you so harshly. Then again, I think you already knew that and just wanted to relate a common misconception among the zammite community that all those who do more than Besieged, Assault and EXP are somehow lootwhores with no friends and will backstab anyone in the chase for a ridill.

[Yutuyu]

What does Endgame really mean anyway?

Some people on these boards treat it like it's some sort of stupid epeen measuring stick. They claim what used to be considered endgame by them is no longer due to how easy the content is for them now adays. But what they fail to realize is that for new people just starting out in the same position they were years ago; sky is still rather challenging.

Just because something is easy for you doesn't mean it's easy for them, of course it's easy for you, you're a veteran of it. Dynamis isn't that easy either, it's only boring because we have good linkshells that know what they're doing and we follow set, intelligent plans.

I'll never understand why the most elite, skilled players feel the need to insult others who're just getting started out, when they were them not too long ago. Difficulty is relative, stop putting people down because they haven't wasted as much of their life as you have on a video game.

(on the other hand the whole selling out to endgame argument is pretty stupid too)

[Eaglestrike]

Endgame = What you do at 75 that you generally can't do before then.

[VZX]

Strictly 75?

[Aymee]

I've happily been kings free for over 2 years now

Did it take rehab? Love how you speak as if it's heroin or something.

That's basically 100% how I look at it. A lot of my closest friends went through it and now say the same thing. Actually, my server has a number of LSes of ex-HNMLS people, to where the LS is mostly meant to be a social but if people are bored and say "eh who's got AP for a random Salvage for kicks?" they'll go and bring along some random friends if they can find them. I like this system.

As for other responses--

I thought about this some more... I suppose I am expressing myself as endgame via my gear. As a perfectionist though, seeing what other people (that are passive melee people... or at least not career WARs) have and knowing it's stuff I'd love to slide into my slots can frustrate me. You could say it's this alone that kinda makes me rate myself a level down. Then again, the only other career non-JP WAR on my server is a self-proclaimed proud dual wield sword nut with any piece of WAR-related gear you could imagine (ArkAngel Hume!), but puts spike necklace in his screenshot of WS gear. *sigh*

So yea, I guess a lot of that is 'endgame'. So alright, call it all that, but I'll still stick with my point of doing it all slowly over time is a certain sanity saver. The most important thing is probably the people you surround yourself with, how much you trust them and your general history with them ...


Thanks to all that read, btw.

[Sendra]

I've happily been kings free for over 2 years now

Did it take rehab? Love how you speak as if it's heroin or something.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56...fxiheromk6.jpg

Can't forget this gem.

[Khalil]

What does Endgame really mean anyway?

Some people on these boards treat it like it's some sort of stupid epeen measuring stick. They claim what used to be considered endgame by them is no longer due to how easy the content is for them now adays. But what they fail to realize is that for new people just starting out in the same position they were years ago; sky is still rather challenging.

Just because something is easy for you doesn't mean it's easy for them, of course it's easy for you, you're a veteran of it. Dynamis isn't that easy either, it's only boring because we have good linkshells that know what they're doing and we follow set, intelligent plans.

I'll never understand why the most elite, skilled players feel the need to insult others who're just getting started out, when they were them not too long ago. Difficulty is relative, stop putting people down because they haven't wasted as much of their life as you have on a video game.

(on the other hand the whole selling out to endgame argument is pretty stupid too)

Are you like always leaking or something?

[Sagacious Sundi]

This kind of stuff stems from the fact that a lot of people misuse the term "endgame" as a substitute for hardcore (which is the true opposite of casual, neither of which are bad), addiction, drama, difficult, and/or elitism. I don't really mean semantics, but rather if you say "I'm an endgame player!" some people might think you're a drama-loving elitist who is addicted (literally) to the game.

[Kaeko]

Endgame = anything a LVL75 player can and would do repeatedly in game outside of leveling. It doesn't mean you have to be LVL75 to do endgame, but I think for most to consider something "endgame", it's got to be something some LVL75s can and want do on a regular basis.

Missions = not really typically seen as "endgame" because while some require LVL75s, it's typically not something you're rewarded for if you repeat it over and over again.

Quests = depends on the quest, but some certainly do fall into what most people call "endgame". Ask any THF going for X's Knife if Requiem of Sin is something they do on a regular basis. I think something like that counts.

Limbus, Sky, Sea, Einherjar, Salvage, Dynamis, Kings, Wyrms, etc. are all endgame. They all have some benefit for repeatedly doing over and over again and are things LVL75s do outside of EXP. I really don't think difficulty has anything to do with what is "endgame" or not. It's really about what LVL75 players do to waste time other than merit or get another job.

Just my 2cents

[Beckwin]

stuff I'd love to slide into my slots

[Dakra]

It must run in our server or something, I get a lot of bias for being in endgame activities (by definition of this thread, aren't really endgame activities to begin with) from other friends who aren't into that kind of thing. I guess to some people it's just a big shitfest, and considering only endgame drama makes it onto most of the public forums, I can't say I'm really all that surprised. People are close-minded by nature, that's how it is.

That being said, there's very little I can add about defining endgame activities that hasn't already been stated somewhere in this thread.

[Isiolia]

Eh, there's a difference between hardcore "endgame" and, well, actually doing something with yourself other than farm, XP, and occasionally shout for missions/AF quests/etc.

Actually participating in content intended for level 75 players is very far from selling out. It's part of the game. Having a group of friends in the game is normal. Doing said content with said friends is a big part of what the game is about.

Sometimes I'm not sure who's worse. The hardcore elitist/drama haijin type players...or the "anti-endgame" types. What's funny is that the latter tend to be elitist about not being elitist


At least for me, the crossover tends to be when you stop doing things because you want to, to doing them because you feel you're obligated to. On a regular basis anyway. FFXI should be a game, not a second job.
Assuming, of course, that you are not seeing things from an entirely selfish perspective in which you loathe to do anything not directly benefiting you. 8)

Where that line would be varies from person to person. However, I think that endgame loot is one of the big things that would cause people to cross it.

Simply engaging in the activities is, at heart, just playing the game. The problem is that the time requirements for many of them can extend past what many players can or will commit to. It's much harder to be happy with your game than to envy, and possibly resent, those that have more in-game than you do.

[Luto]

Out of curiosity, what was her name on Phoenix?

[Aymee]

I'll never understand why the most elite, skilled players feel the need to insult others who're just getting started out, when they were them not too long ago. Difficulty is relative, stop putting people down because they haven't wasted as much of their life as you have on a video game.

In no way, shape or form will I ever try to pass myself off at the most elite or most skilled anything. I agree my choice of words in saying stuff is 'easy now' might have been a little off but I sure as hell wasn't trying to put anyone down. Fine, I agree difficulty is relative, and stuff that's 'easy' for me now is plenty hard for others.

The thread isn't about putting down more casual players. In fact I spend the majority of the post complimenting my old friend for doing a great job with her job and bring its potential without a lot of this 'endgame stuff'.

Sometimes I'm not sure who's worse. The hardcore elitist/drama haijin type players...or the "anti-endgame" types. What's funny is that the latter tend to be elitist about not being elitist

...Anti-endgame? lol. I suppose you're right. Often do I lawl at stuff I see people doing or they have to do because of their hnmls, etc. Mostly because they complain about it too, but feel obligated due to wanting to work hard for drops given to them (honor, what a concept). The only real time I've been 100% anti-endgame was when one of the more dominant HNMLSes on my server which is notorious for inviting zero melee for any reason whatsoever and banning anything without 'mage' in the job name for 99% of activities took in a DRG despite the fact that friends and I had always liked and respected the LS. That just made me ill. Past that, people can go blow as much time camping stuff as they want--that is the general bulk of time spent in a fullblown HNMLS.

At least for me, the crossover tends to be when you stop doing things because you want to, to doing them because you feel you're obligated to.

This summary is win... though I'd like to toss out an exception for feeling a need to pay off personal debts or wanting to make things even amongst friends. Like, hell I feel obligated to do my assault group for all tags, but the 'have to/should' comes from wanting to help my group and get them what they might like, just like how they help with me. I suppose this isn't much different than an exp static--you have the same collective goal of progressing and it's presumably all people you have a closer connection to than just having the same linkpearl.

[Lordwafik]

Tell your friend to stfu and gtfo. You participated in end game? Good for you. She doesn't like it? Bad for her. Move on and shut up.

[Eaglestrike]

Strictly 75?

Mostly. Hence the "end" of endgame...being at the highest level...