Endless debate

[Senoska]

I just did this trick and have decided that FSM is truth.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9...0548774ec5.jpg

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3...onster2nk2.jpg

[Keno]

And lets look at what the USA did to the Native Americans. We came here, fucked them up, took their land, pushed them out, and what have they done in retaliation? As a whole, they've accepted it.

Are you serious?

Do you see Native American suicide bombers going around and fucking shit up? No. They stay on their reservations and accept the fate that has unfolded for them. Yes, yes, I'm generalizing a shit ton, but for the most part it's true. And fuck yes I'm ok with USA getting this land through hostility; that is how the world works. Might does indeed make right.

[Keno]

This thread is ridicules, most people aren't even listening to eachother. And people keep presenting themselves in an aggresive manner towards Firas, and then act surprised when he returns the favor.

He was the one who started the hostility actually. Just as we've been saying, Arabs are always the aggressors.

[Beckwin]

Do you enjoy being a fascist? And do you realize that reservations are glorified ghettos, aside from the tourist traps and casinos?

[Khamsin]

And fuck yes I'm ok with USA getting this land through hostility; that is how the world works. Might does indeed make right.

Right, so quit bombing us guys, it's not fair!

[Beckwin]

And there goes Keno's whole argument.

[Keno]

Do you enjoy being a fascist? And do you realize that reservations are glorified ghettos, aside from the tourist traps and casinos?

Haha. I actually know a few native americans who have lived on reservations first hand, do you? They get checks from the gov't for $24k every month from their casino profit splitting. Some shitty life they live, huh? Oh boy, do I sure feel sorry for them....

And I've actually taken three classes on Native American Studies in college, so I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of what has happened, what they've gone through, and what their current situation is. But thanks for your input.

EDIT: You guys are hilarious. Is someone here actually going to make an argument that we shouldn't have colonized the states because there were natives here? Get real.

[Kuya]

No. They stay on their reservations and accept the fate that has unfolded for them.

Arabs are always the aggressors.

Foot in mouth.

[Keno]

No. They stay on their reservations and accept the fate that has unfolded for them.

[quote:z4gygino]Arabs are always the aggressors.

Foot in mouth.[/quote:z4gygino]

lol, how was I being the aggressor there? I'm not even talking about Arabs in that quote...

[Kuya]

You guys are hilarious. Is someone here actually going to make an argument that we shouldn't have colonized the states because there were natives here? Get real.

You're right, we could argue this till we are all blue in the face, but we can't change what happend in the past, and it is also imposible to have millions of non native americans move out of the US, as it is for jews to move out of Isreal at this point. But, just because it happend in the past, it doesn't mean it is beyond the scope of critique. We should consider that in a time where we suposedly believe in the freedom of every human being and respect towards eachother, that simply dumping a bunch of people in the Middle East because none of the nations involved in the war wanted to take responsability for the aftermath, only serves to further square the responsiblity, or at least most of it, on the US and many of the European nations. We deliberately marginalized the wills of hundreds for "the greater good", or rather "because we didn't feel like doing anything else".

lol, how was I being the aggressor there? I'm not even talking about Arabs in that quote...

I made no correlation, i simply quoted two examples of somebody swiftly placing their foot within their mouth.

[Beckwin]

Have you seen the Navajo reservations? There is a ton of poverty there. Alcoholism, drug abuse, and violent crime are serious problems, not to mention struggling education systems. A large majority of the homeless population in Northern Arizona is Native American.

From what I recall, we fought some pretty bloody wars with Native Americans, so I don't think that they "just accepted it". After subjugating them we treated them like horseshit for decades upon decades. We created a repressed, impoverished people that now pose a financial burden on our government. That's not something to be proud of. Can't really undo the past, but looking back we certainly could've done many things better.

And how the hell can you praise America for forcibly taking Native lands and brutalizing the people, then praise Britain for forcibly taking control of Israel, and then bitch about Arabs trying to forcibly take control of Israel? Take the blinders off.

[CMMeast]

Do you enjoy being a fascist? And do you realize that reservations are glorified ghettos, aside from the tourist traps and casinos?

Haha. I actually know a few native americans who have lived on reservations first hand, do you? They get checks from the gov't for $24k every month from their casino profit splitting. Some shitty life they live, huh? Oh boy, do I sure feel sorry for them....

And I've actually taken three classes on Native American Studies in college, so I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of what has happened, what they've gone through, and what their current situation is. But thanks for your input.

EDIT: You guys are hilarious. Is someone here actually going to make an argument that we shouldn't have colonized the states because there were natives here? Get real.

Not every Native American is pulling in the big bucks from the government from casinos. It's more like a small majority. In California there are a number of ongoing lawsuits involving Native American tribes denying legitimate tribe members their dues just so their overall profits are higher. Indian gaming only benefits a very small minority. There is no way to argue against this.

In high school we did a service project at the Blackfoot Reservation in Montana. I assure you, they really do live a shitty life. The children and young adults have no opportunities because low federal funding means no quality schooling. On top of that, there is an endemic culture of alcohol and drug addiction that hasn't been addressed in generations. There literally is nothing for anyone to do there. The closest comparison would rightfully be the lack of opportunities presented to black youth in urban areas and we all know where they're most likely to end up (in prison or dead).

[Keno]

You guys are hilarious. Is someone here actually going to make an argument that we shouldn't have colonized the states because there were natives here? Get real.

You're right, we could argue this till we are all blue in the face, but we can't change what happend in the past, and it is also imposible to have millions of non native americans move out of the US, as it is for jews to move out of Isreal at this point. But, just because it happend in the past, it doesn't mean it is beyond the scope of critique. We should consider that in a time where we suposedly believe in the freedom of every human being and respect towards eachother, that simply dumping a bunch of people in the Middle East because none of the nations involved in the war wanted to take responsability for the aftermath, only serves to further square the responsiblity, or at least most of it, on the US and many of the European nations. We deliberately marginalized the wills of hundreds for "the greater good", or rather "because we didn't feel like doing anything else".

You said the most important parts of the thread in your first sentence. I bolded it so everyone can read it. As you said, it doesn't matter how we got here, we're already here. All of this debate about whose fault it is isn't going to help anyone. The Israeli's aren't going anywhere, deal with it (non-violently).

[Keno]

Do you enjoy being a fascist? And do you realize that reservations are glorified ghettos, aside from the tourist traps and casinos?

Haha. I actually know a few native americans who have lived on reservations first hand, do you? They get checks from the gov't for $24k every month from their casino profit splitting. Some shitty life they live, huh? Oh boy, do I sure feel sorry for them....

And I've actually taken three classes on Native American Studies in college, so I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of what has happened, what they've gone through, and what their current situation is. But thanks for your input.

EDIT: You guys are hilarious. Is someone here actually going to make an argument that we shouldn't have colonized the states because there were natives here? Get real.

Not every Native American is pulling in the big bucks from the government from casinos. It's more like a small majority. In California there are a number of ongoing lawsuits involving Native American tribes denying legitimate tribe members their dues just so their overall profits are higher. Indian gaming only benefits a very small minority. There is no way to argue against this.

In high school we did a service project at the Blackfoot Reservation in Montana. I assure you, they really do live a shitty life. The children and young adults have no opportunities because low federal funding means no quality schooling. On top of that, there is an endemic culture of alcohol and drug addiction that hasn't been addressed in generations. There literally is nothing for anyone to do there. The clesest comparison would rightfully be the lack of opportunities presented to black youth in urban areas and we all know where they're most likely to end up (in prison or dead).

You know what? They have to take responsibility for living their shitty lives, at least in part. Generally they have shitty lives because of rampant alcoholism and drug abuse. And before you all call me a racist, those are facts, not subjective observations. Now we may speculate as to why they have rampant alcoholism and drug abuse, but once again, that doesn't matter. If they're not willing to help themselves then I don't see why we should. But can we try to not split this thread that has already been split? I'm sorry I brought up native americans, if any of you want to debate over that, make another thread or just PM me your angry comments.

[Kuya]

You know what? They have to take responsibility for living their shitty lives, at least in part.

At least you sead in part.

Now we may speculate as to why they have rampant alcoholism and drug abuse, but once again, that doesn't matter.

Quite the opposite, it's exactly what needs to be discussed.

Also, what was your original point in this thread Keno? That Israel is there to stay and the muslims should get over it? Unless someone provides some solutions that can at least leave both sides with a good taste in their mouths, muslims will continue to seek the destruction of Israel, which by the way is also just a cover for the fact that the Middle East reflects an archaic view of the world, that is desperately trying to cling onto reality.

And yes, i just tossed an almost completely unrelated thought in there.

Also, you continue to say arabs are the aggresors, when it is clear to anyone that you baited Firas into this whole argument.

[Demosthenes11]

my wanker is bigger than everyone elses

This is the only fact in any argument here

[Keno]

Have you seen the Navajo reservations? There is a ton of poverty there. Alcoholism, drug abuse, and violent crime are serious problems, not to mention struggling education systems. A large majority of the homeless population in Northern Arizona is Native American.

From what I recall, we fought some pretty bloody wars with Native Americans, so I don't think that they "just accepted it". After subjugating them we treated them like horseshit for decades upon decades. We created a repressed, impoverished people that now pose a financial burden on our government. That's not something to be proud of. Can't really undo the past, but looking back we certainly could've done many things better.

And how the hell can you praise America for forcibly taking Native lands and brutalizing the people, then praise Britain for forcibly taking control of Israel, and then bitch about Arabs trying to forcibly take control of Israel? Take the blinders off.

Because this is a different time we live in. This is no longer the day in age where you can waltz into a country and just take their land. That shit is done with. For thousands of years that is how it was done though, and that is why I accept what USA and Britain did. Now I'd like to think our world is becoming a little more civilized, our borders a little firmer. With nuclear weaponry in the hands of many countries now it's no longer appropriate to just try and take land. Before when you did that there were much less issues. You didn't have dirty bombs, nukes, etc. I'd like to think that as some proof of my statements I can show the USA's actions towards the end of WW2. If it were any time earlier in history, after we defeated them we would have invaded their lands and made them subject to us; however, Japan is still a free nation.

Sorry I'm kinda jumping around here but we're having a dissertation type discussion on an internet forum... Theres far too much to be considered. Needless to say this is probably beyond the scope of an internet forum discussion. No side will be able to accurately and appropriately represent their information with the other side actually carefully reading and comprehending it. It might just be better to agree to disagree.

[Keno]

You know what? They have to take responsibility for living their shitty lives, at least in part.

At least you sead in part.
[quote:2g8hh10h]Now we may speculate as to why they have rampant alcoholism and drug abuse, but once again, that doesn't matter.

Quite the opposite, it's exactly what needs to be discussed.

Also, what was your original point in this thread Keno? That Israel is there to stay and the muslims should get over it? Unless someone provides some solutions that can at least leave both sides with a good taste in their mouths, muslims will continue to seek the destruction of Israel, which by the way is also just a cover for the fact that the Middle East reflects an archaic view of the world, that is desperately trying to cling onto reality.

And yes, i just tossed an almost completely unrelated thought in there.

Also, you continue to say arabs are the aggresors, when it is clear to anyone that you baited Firas into this whole argument.[/quote:2g8hh10h]

Yes, my point is that Israel isn't going anywhere and that the Muslims should learn to deal with it. The best possible solution is obviously cohabitation of the region, but it doesn't look like either side would really accept that.

EDIT: Re-read the first four posts in this thread. He is the aggressor:

My bad, Israelis. not jews. Israeli's are actually banned from I think all of the Mulsim countries in the world. Hell, they are the main reason for the war.

It was only after that post of his did someone say "Shitstorm commence" and that an actual shitstorm did commence.

[Beckwin]

So you're saying that Jews being placed in Israel isn't the reason for there to be fighting over Israel?

. . .

Last I checked, we had nukes at the end of WWII and I'd guess by the time Israel was instated, Russia did too. So the difference now is just that what, uh, Pakistan and India have nukes now? Is that really your excuse? I'll also remind you that chemical and biological weapons were around in the 1940's, not to mention napalm.

Sorry man, but your shit isn't flying.

P.S.- there are similar causal relationships between African-American plight, Native American plight, African struggles, and Middle Eastern extremism. All of the aforementioned have certainly done things to fuck it up for themselves, but dig a little deeper.

[Keno]

So you're saying that Jews being placed in Israel isn't the reason for there to be fighting over Israel?

. . .

Last I checked, we had nukes at the end of WWII and I'd guess by the time Israel was instated, Russia did too. So the difference now is just that what, uh, Pakistan and India have nukes now? Is that really your excuse? I'll also remind you that chemical and biological weapons were around in the 1940's, not to mention napalm.

Sorry man, but your shit isn't flying.

P.S.- there are similar causal relationships between African-American plight, Native American plight, African struggles, and Middle Eastern extremism. All of the aforementioned have certainly done things to fuck it up for themselves, but dig a little deeper.

When Israel was instated there was no fighting over it, was it? Wasn't it already under British rule at the time? And if I'm not mistaken the British acquired it before nuclear technology? Correct me if I'm wrong on any of those facts.

EDIT: Just double checked. Yeah, Britain got the region in the '20s when there was no nuclear technology. And when their mandate for the land expired in 1948 Israel was made a new nation, not from warring for it though.