Mitchell Report

[Quicklet]

The more Clemens tries to defend himself, the more the calculation and desperation shows. After his news conference, IMO Clemens is just a horrible person for (what seems to be) trying to set up McNamee, who has been said to be a good guy from other people who knew him. If he had just come out and admitted it, I think people would be much more forgiving than they will be if it either seems like he is guilty or if more evidence comes to light.

I mean honestly, the fact that he is so transparent about all this (it's all about the hall of fame) is disgusting. What is the point of filing the defamation lawsuit against McNamee a week before going to Congress? Is that going to be a convenient excuse to (still) not give a detailed explanation of why McNamee's testimony is false? He is trying to parse words and actions in such a way that he isn't outright calling McNamee a liar but still is basically saying exactly that when you read between the lines.

It's possible that he really is innocent and that at some point he will be vindicated from all this, but the way he's going about trying to defend himself just makes him look even worse at this point.

[Cephius]

I was never a huge Clemens fan, although I am a big Yankee fan, but I feel for the guy in this situation. Suppose you really never did steroids and you just worked really hard your whole career. Then this guy, who you trusted and let use your boat to go fishing and all this other stuff, and who you took care of gives your name in relation with steroids, but offers no proof other than the defense that "if I lied I'll go to jail". What would you do? There hasn't been an OUNCE OF EVIDENCE against Clemens (not to mention steroids weren't even illegal in baseball when he was accused of using them) and I really believe him when he said "is this what our country is coming to? Guilty unless proven innocent?" I mean jesus there's no way the guy can defend himself. All his stats, his whole career, gone because one trainer comes forward and everyone is quick to throw him under a bus. And all of you are so quick to say "lol hez lyin!!!!!" should be ashamed of yourself for supporting this witch hunt.

Also to the person who thinks there are MLB teams who are clean of steroids, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL what freaking planet are you from? Are you that naive? Ironic that you compare it to botting in FFXI, since guess what? There's one in every linkshell.

[Deejay]

I was never a huge Clemens fan, although I am a big Yankee fan, but I feel for the guy in this situation. Suppose you really never did steroids and you just worked really hard your whole career. Then this guy, who you trusted and let use your boat to go fishing and all this other stuff, and who you took care of gives your name in relation with steroids, but offers no proof other than the defense that "if I lied I'll go to jail". What would you do? There hasn't been an OUNCE OF EVIDENCE against Clemens (not to mention steroids weren't even illegal in baseball when he was accused of using them) and I really believe him when he said "is this what our country is coming to? Guilty unless proven innocent?" I mean jesus there's no way the guy can defend himself. All his stats, his whole career, gone because one trainer comes forward and everyone is quick to throw him under a bus. And all of you are so quick to say "lol hez lyin!!!!!" should be ashamed of yourself for supporting this witch hunt.

Also to the person who thinks there are MLB teams who are clean of steroids, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL what freaking planet are you from? Are you that naive? Ironic that you compare it to botting in FFXI, since guess what? There's one in every linkshell.

Nothing I say can properly articulate how ironic you sound from your first to second paragraph.

Edit: And there is an ounce of evidence. Just heard on the radio that Clemens and Pettite both hired investigators to question the trainer the day before the Mitchell report came out, and when questioned on 60 minutes he said he had no idea that his name was going to be on the report.

He lied, lol. Get over it.

[Tyche]

He has no more evidence against him than bonds has. Someone gave them their name to some feds, and they both get exceptionally better in their fourties. I didn't see M.Jordan, N.Ryan, J.Rice, etc peak in their 40's.

[Deejay]

He has no more evidence against him than bonds has. Someone gave them their name to some feds, and they both get exceptionally better in their fourties. I didn't see M.Jordan, N.Ryan, J.Rice, etc peak in their 40's.

I thought Bonds actually had failed drug tests? The only things Clemens has against him is that he's doing about 0% of the things a real innocent person would.

[archibaldcrane]

He has no more evidence against him than bonds has. Someone gave them their name to some feds, and they both get exceptionally better in their fourties. I didn't see M.Jordan, N.Ryan, J.Rice, etc peak in their 40's.

Hank Aaron's best years were 35-39 (when he retired).
Just sayin'

I thought Bonds actually had failed drug tests?

Nope.

[archibaldcrane]

(not to mention steroids weren't even illegal in baseball when he was accused of using them)

Using prescription drugs without a prescription or drugs that are illegal under US law has been against baseball rules under the collective bargaining agreement in 1992. There was just no testing.

[Cephius]

I was never a huge Clemens fan, although I am a big Yankee fan, but I feel for the guy in this situation. Suppose you really never did steroids and you just worked really hard your whole career. Then this guy, who you trusted and let use your boat to go fishing and all this other stuff, and who you took care of gives your name in relation with steroids, but offers no proof other than the defense that "if I lied I'll go to jail". What would you do? There hasn't been an OUNCE OF EVIDENCE against Clemens (not to mention steroids weren't even illegal in baseball when he was accused of using them) and I really believe him when he said "is this what our country is coming to? Guilty unless proven innocent?" I mean jesus there's no way the guy can defend himself. All his stats, his whole career, gone because one trainer comes forward and everyone is quick to throw him under a bus. And all of you are so quick to say "lol hez lyin!!!!!" should be ashamed of yourself for supporting this witch hunt.

Also to the person who thinks there are MLB teams who are clean of steroids, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL what freaking planet are you from? Are you that naive? Ironic that you compare it to botting in FFXI, since guess what? There's one in every linkshell.

Nothing I say can properly articulate how ironic you sound from your first to second paragraph.

Edit: And there is an ounce of evidence. Just heard on the radio that Clemens and Pettite both hired investigators to question the trainer the day before the Mitchell report came out, and when questioned on 60 minutes he said he had no idea that his name was going to be on the report.

He lied, lol. Get over it.

First of all, I know steroids are a problem in baseball. But the way the MLB is going about this is completely retarded. It's McCarthyism all over again, a complete "he said, she said" fiasco in which the "evidence" wouldn't last 5 seconds in a court of law. The Mitchell report was good in some regards, as in the people where there was tangible proof that they in fact used steroids. But to give names of people when the only evidence was some trainer, and not even give them a chance to defend themselves? It's ridiculous. It's nothing more than Bud Selig getting the congressional monkies off his back and onto Clemens. And guess what, thanks to retards like some people in this thread, it worked.

Second, about the investigators comment, if you're listening to WFAN like I am, there seems to be a bit of confusion about that. He was supposedly informed his name might be on the list 3 days prior to the list coming out, but the tip wasn't reliable. Was he wrong for hiring an investigator just in case? Was he still lying when he said he had no knowledge? People like you are so quick to judge. Even that investigator part was true, it's really a moot point anyway. There is NO TANGIBLE PROOF WHATSOEVER that Clemens did steroids. No checks, no receipts, no tests, no pictures, nothing. What happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty?

[Tyche]

I was never a huge Clemens fan, although I am a big Yankee fan, but I feel for the guy in this situation. Suppose you really never did steroids and you just worked really hard your whole career. Then this guy, who you trusted and let use your boat to go fishing and all this other stuff, and who you took care of gives your name in relation with steroids, but offers no proof other than the defense that "if I lied I'll go to jail". What would you do? There hasn't been an OUNCE OF EVIDENCE against Clemens (not to mention steroids weren't even illegal in baseball when he was accused of using them) and I really believe him when he said "is this what our country is coming to? Guilty unless proven innocent?" I mean jesus there's no way the guy can defend himself. All his stats, his whole career, gone because one trainer comes forward and everyone is quick to throw him under a bus. And all of you are so quick to say "lol hez lyin!!!!!" should be ashamed of yourself for supporting this witch hunt.

Also to the person who thinks there are MLB teams who are clean of steroids, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL what freaking planet are you from? Are you that naive? Ironic that you compare it to botting in FFXI, since guess what? There's one in every linkshell.

Nothing I say can properly articulate how ironic you sound from your first to second paragraph.

Edit: And there is an ounce of evidence. Just heard on the radio that Clemens and Pettite both hired investigators to question the trainer the day before the Mitchell report came out, and when questioned on 60 minutes he said he had no idea that his name was going to be on the report.

He lied, lol. Get over it.

First of all, I know steroids are a problem in baseball. But the way the MLB is going about this is completely retarded. It's McCarthyism all over again, a complete "he said, she said" fiasco in which the "evidence" wouldn't last 5 seconds in a court of law. The Mitchell report was good in some regards, as in the people where there was tangible proof that they in fact used steroids. But to give names of people when the only evidence was some trainer, and not even give them a chance to defend themselves? It's ridiculous. It's nothing more than Bud Selig getting the congressional monkies off his back and onto Clemens. And guess what, thanks to retards like some people in this thread, it worked.

Second, about the investigators comment, if you're listening to WFAN like I am, there seems to be a bit of confusion about that. He was supposedly informed his name might be on the list 3 days prior to the list coming out, but the tip wasn't reliable. Was he wrong for hiring an investigator just in case? Was he still lying when he said he had no knowledge? People like you are so quick to judge. Even that investigator part was true, it's really a moot point anyway. There is NO TANGIBLE PROOF WHATSOEVER that Clemens did steroids. No checks, no receipts, no tests, no pictures, nothing. What happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty?

1st bolded statement: It's funny you should say that, because not only is it about to hold up in the court of law, it's about to hold up to a federal indictment. Bonds is going to prison on perjury on some he-said she-said palaver. That is assuming (and this is a very very poor assumption) that the feds don't have other incriminating evidence against bonds other than federal grand jury testimony.

2nd bolded statement: 1. There isn't a test for HGH 2. Very few ppl in the mitchell report had checks, even then, they didn't say what they were for. So you'd just pull out the "maybe it was for hot coffee and crumpets" excuse. And god, spare me with the innocent until proven guilty bullshit. Please. This isn't the fucking supreme court, it's public opinion. Nothing is adding up for Clemens.

[Cephius]

I was never a huge Clemens fan, although I am a big Yankee fan, but I feel for the guy in this situation. Suppose you really never did steroids and you just worked really hard your whole career. Then this guy, who you trusted and let use your boat to go fishing and all this other stuff, and who you took care of gives your name in relation with steroids, but offers no proof other than the defense that "if I lied I'll go to jail". What would you do? There hasn't been an OUNCE OF EVIDENCE against Clemens (not to mention steroids weren't even illegal in baseball when he was accused of using them) and I really believe him when he said "is this what our country is coming to? Guilty unless proven innocent?" I mean jesus there's no way the guy can defend himself. All his stats, his whole career, gone because one trainer comes forward and everyone is quick to throw him under a bus. And all of you are so quick to say "lol hez lyin!!!!!" should be ashamed of yourself for supporting this witch hunt.

Also to the person who thinks there are MLB teams who are clean of steroids, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL what freaking planet are you from? Are you that naive? Ironic that you compare it to botting in FFXI, since guess what? There's one in every linkshell.

Nothing I say can properly articulate how ironic you sound from your first to second paragraph.

Edit: And there is an ounce of evidence. Just heard on the radio that Clemens and Pettite both hired investigators to question the trainer the day before the Mitchell report came out, and when questioned on 60 minutes he said he had no idea that his name was going to be on the report.

He lied, lol. Get over it.

First of all, I know steroids are a problem in baseball. But the way the MLB is going about this is completely retarded. It's McCarthyism all over again, a complete "he said, she said" fiasco in which the "evidence" wouldn't last 5 seconds in a court of law. The Mitchell report was good in some regards, as in the people where there was tangible proof that they in fact used steroids. But to give names of people when the only evidence was some trainer, and not even give them a chance to defend themselves? It's ridiculous. It's nothing more than Bud Selig getting the congressional monkies off his back and onto Clemens. And guess what, thanks to retards like some people in this thread, it worked.

Second, about the investigators comment, if you're listening to WFAN like I am, there seems to be a bit of confusion about that. He was supposedly informed his name might be on the list 3 days prior to the list coming out, but the tip wasn't reliable. Was he wrong for hiring an investigator just in case? Was he still lying when he said he had no knowledge? People like you are so quick to judge. Even that investigator part was true, it's really a moot point anyway. There is NO TANGIBLE PROOF WHATSOEVER that Clemens did steroids. No checks, no receipts, no tests, no pictures, nothing. What happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty?

1st bolded statement: It's funny you should say that, because not only is it about to hold up in the court of law, it's about to hold up to a federal indictment. Bonds is going to prison on perjury on some he-said she-said palaver. That is assuming (and this is a very very poor assumption) that the feds don't have other incriminating evidence against bonds other than federal grand jury testimony.

2nd bolded statement: 1. There isn't a test for HGH 2. Very few ppl in the mitchell report had checks, even then, they didn't say what they were for. So you'd just pull out the "maybe it was for hot coffee and crumpets" excuse. And god, spare me with the innocent until proven guilty bullshit. Please. This isn't the fucking supreme court, it's public opinion. Nothing is adding up for Clemens.

It happened to Bonds because he lied to a federal court, not because of what anyone said about him. The question of whether or not he did steroids is not on trial, the question of him lying to the court is. He's not going to jail because of the accusations of steroids made against him. So nice try.

I suppose its easy for you to say "innocent until proven guilty bullshit", but like everyone else you fail to put yourself in his shoes or wonder "could it happen to me?" Do you not see a trend in this country with convicting people before they're tried and how dangerous something like that is? I realize it's only baseball but come on... at least see what's going on here. I don't think you'd have the same opinion if you were accused of committing a crime and were assumed guilty before you had a chance to say a word.

[archibaldcrane]

I'd just like to take this moment to point out that:

Clemens takes Vitamin B-12 up the ass.

That is all.

[Tyche]

I was never a huge Clemens fan, although I am a big Yankee fan, but I feel for the guy in this situation. Suppose you really never did steroids and you just worked really hard your whole career. Then this guy, who you trusted and let use your boat to go fishing and all this other stuff, and who you took care of gives your name in relation with steroids, but offers no proof other than the defense that "if I lied I'll go to jail". What would you do? There hasn't been an OUNCE OF EVIDENCE against Clemens (not to mention steroids weren't even illegal in baseball when he was accused of using them) and I really believe him when he said "is this what our country is coming to? Guilty unless proven innocent?" I mean jesus there's no way the guy can defend himself. All his stats, his whole career, gone because one trainer comes forward and everyone is quick to throw him under a bus. And all of you are so quick to say "lol hez lyin!!!!!" should be ashamed of yourself for supporting this witch hunt.

Also to the person who thinks there are MLB teams who are clean of steroids, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL what freaking planet are you from? Are you that naive? Ironic that you compare it to botting in FFXI, since guess what? There's one in every linkshell.

Nothing I say can properly articulate how ironic you sound from your first to second paragraph.

Edit: And there is an ounce of evidence. Just heard on the radio that Clemens and Pettite both hired investigators to question the trainer the day before the Mitchell report came out, and when questioned on 60 minutes he said he had no idea that his name was going to be on the report.

He lied, lol. Get over it.

First of all, I know steroids are a problem in baseball. But the way the MLB is going about this is completely retarded. It's McCarthyism all over again, a complete "he said, she said" fiasco in which the "evidence" wouldn't last 5 seconds in a court of law. The Mitchell report was good in some regards, as in the people where there was tangible proof that they in fact used steroids. But to give names of people when the only evidence was some trainer, and not even give them a chance to defend themselves? It's ridiculous. It's nothing more than Bud Selig getting the congressional monkies off his back and onto Clemens. And guess what, thanks to retards like some people in this thread, it worked.

Second, about the investigators comment, if you're listening to WFAN like I am, there seems to be a bit of confusion about that. He was supposedly informed his name might be on the list 3 days prior to the list coming out, but the tip wasn't reliable. Was he wrong for hiring an investigator just in case? Was he still lying when he said he had no knowledge? People like you are so quick to judge. Even that investigator part was true, it's really a moot point anyway. There is NO TANGIBLE PROOF WHATSOEVER that Clemens did steroids. No checks, no receipts, no tests, no pictures, nothing. What happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty?

1st bolded statement: It's funny you should say that, because not only is it about to hold up in the court of law, it's about to hold up to a federal indictment. Bonds is going to prison on perjury on some he-said she-said palaver. That is assuming (and this is a very very poor assumption) that the feds don't have other incriminating evidence against bonds other than federal grand jury testimony.

2nd bolded statement: 1. There isn't a test for HGH 2. Very few ppl in the mitchell report had checks, even then, they didn't say what they were for. So you'd just pull out the "maybe it was for hot coffee and crumpets" excuse. And god, spare me with the innocent until proven guilty bullshit. Please. This isn't the fucking supreme court, it's public opinion. Nothing is adding up for Clemens.

It happened to Bonds because he lied to a federal court, not because of what anyone said about him. The question of whether or not he did steroids is not on trial, the question of him lying to the court is. He's not going to jail because of the accusations of steroids made against him. So nice try.

I suppose its easy for you to say "innocent until proven guilty bullshit", but like everyone else you fail to put yourself in his shoes or wonder "could it happen to me?" Do you not see a trend in this country with convicting people before they're tried and how dangerous something like that is? I realize it's only baseball but come on... at least see what's going on here. I don't think you'd have the same opinion if you were accused of committing a crime and were assumed guilty before you had a chance to say a word.

Wow, ignorance is rampant. To prove bonds lied to the federal grand jury, the trial bonds is about to face has to prove bonds lied about taking steroids under oath. Which means, the federal court is going to be using testimony (he said) to prove bonds is lying (she said). So yes, the question of whether or not he did steroids is on trial. It's the fucking epicenter of the trial.

As far as your 2nd paragraph, I will, again, point you to the fact that this is public OPINION. It's my opinion that OJ killed his wife. I actually have a lot of opinions. None of them have indicted anyone. So whilst you're staring up at Clemens while he pleads his innocence (quite poorly), please, plead Bond's case. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, right?

[Cephius]

[quote=Tyche]

I was never a huge Clemens fan, although I am a big Yankee fan, but I feel for the guy in this situation. Suppose you really never did steroids and you just worked really hard your whole career. Then this guy, who you trusted and let use your boat to go fishing and all this other stuff, and who you took care of gives your name in relation with steroids, but offers no proof other than the defense that "if I lied I'll go to jail". What would you do? There hasn't been an OUNCE OF EVIDENCE against Clemens (not to mention steroids weren't even illegal in baseball when he was accused of using them) and I really believe him when he said "is this what our country is coming to? Guilty unless proven innocent?" I mean jesus there's no way the guy can defend himself. All his stats, his whole career, gone because one trainer comes forward and everyone is quick to throw him under a bus. And all of you are so quick to say "lol hez lyin!!!!!" should be ashamed of yourself for supporting this witch hunt.

Also to the person who thinks there are MLB teams who are clean of steroids, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL what freaking planet are you from? Are you that naive? Ironic that you compare it to botting in FFXI, since guess what? There's one in every linkshell.

Nothing I say can properly articulate how ironic you sound from your first to second paragraph.

Edit: And there is an ounce of evidence. Just heard on the radio that Clemens and Pettite both hired investigators to question the trainer the day before the Mitchell report came out, and when questioned on 60 minutes he said he had no idea that his name was going to be on the report.

He lied, lol. Get over it.

First of all, I know steroids are a problem in baseball. But the way the MLB is going about this is completely retarded. It's McCarthyism all over again, a complete "he said, she said" fiasco in which the "evidence" wouldn't last 5 seconds in a court of law. The Mitchell report was good in some regards, as in the people where there was tangible proof that they in fact used steroids. But to give names of people when the only evidence was some trainer, and not even give them a chance to defend themselves? It's ridiculous. It's nothing more than Bud Selig getting the congressional monkies off his back and onto Clemens. And guess what, thanks to retards like some people in this thread, it worked.

Second, about the investigators comment, if you're listening to WFAN like I am, there seems to be a bit of confusion about that. He was supposedly informed his name might be on the list 3 days prior to the list coming out, but the tip wasn't reliable. Was he wrong for hiring an investigator just in case? Was he still lying when he said he had no knowledge? People like you are so quick to judge. Even that investigator part was true, it's really a moot point anyway. There is NO TANGIBLE PROOF WHATSOEVER that Clemens did steroids. No checks, no receipts, no tests, no pictures, nothing. What happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty?

1st bolded statement: It's funny you should say that, because not only is it about to hold up in the court of law, it's about to hold up to a federal indictment. Bonds is going to prison on perjury on some he-said she-said palaver. That is assuming (and this is a very very poor assumption) that the feds don't have other incriminating evidence against bonds other than federal grand jury testimony.

2nd bolded statement: 1. There isn't a test for HGH 2. Very few ppl in the mitchell report had checks, even then, they didn't say what they were for. So you'd just pull out the "maybe it was for hot coffee and crumpets" excuse. And god, spare me with the innocent until proven guilty bullshit. Please. This isn't the fucking supreme court, it's public opinion. Nothing is adding up for Clemens.

It happened to Bonds because he lied to a federal court, not because of what anyone said about him. The question of whether or not he did steroids is not on trial, the question of him lying to the court is. He's not going to jail because of the accusations of steroids made against him. So nice try.

I suppose its easy for you to say "innocent until proven guilty bullshit", but like everyone else you fail to put yourself in his shoes or wonder "could it happen to me?" Do you not see a trend in this country with convicting people before they're tried and how dangerous something like that is? I realize it's only baseball but come on... at least see what's going on here. I don't think you'd have the same opinion if you were accused of committing a crime and were assumed guilty before you had a chance to say a word.

Wow, ignorance is rampant. To prove bonds lied to the federal grand jury, the trial bonds is about to face has to prove bonds lied about taking steroids under oath. Which means, the federal court is going to be using testimony (he said) to prove bonds is lying (she said). So yes, the question of whether or not he did steroids is on trial. It's the fucking epicenter of the trial.

As far as your 2nd paragraph, I will, again, point you to the fact that this is public OPINION. It's my opinion that OJ killed his wife. I actually have a lot of opinions. None of them have indicted anyone. So whilst you're staring up at Clemens while he pleads his innocence (quite poorly), please, plead Bond's case. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, right?[/quote:2a8muvfa]

Jesus christ, keep deluding yourself into thinking that heresay can be admitted into a court of law. I'll say it again to make it perfectly clear: Barry Bonds is not on trial for using steroids, he's on trial for lying to a federal court. I for one believe Bonds shot up steroids like it was his fucking job, but I also believe in a man's right to defend himself, and that goes hand in hand with heresay evidence not being worth a damn in court. You need proof to convict someone. Get it? P-R-O-O-F. That pesky thing! And oh yeah, there's none against Clemens either.

[archibaldcrane]

Ceph...buddy...you...can't defend Clemens here without defending Bonds as well. You believe Bonds shot up steroids like it was his job?

OMG HOW DARE YOU CONVICT HIM WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE, WITHOUT PROOF! IT'S ALL HERESAY!

You see how this works?

No one is bringing charges against Clemens, he's only being tried in the court of public opinion.

...now, if he goes in front of Congress and says again that he never used steroids, and evidence pops up against him we have a different story...

...erm, well, cept for that he's white.

[Akiyama]

Yeah. There was a poll on Espn.com saying 54% of the people would vote Clemens in the HoF, but less than 50% would vote for Bonds. As much as I dislike Bonds as a player, if we are inviting people from the steroid era into the HoF, he should be one of the first, if not THE first person that gets the invite. It's a bunch of bullshit with the way things are happening. I mean.. I don't like Bonds as much as the next guy, but treat them both equally at least. Either let people who performed best in the steroid era and put them all in their own little section, or let no one in. Simple as that.

In other words, go the fuck away Bonds haters. If Clemens has really done steroids for sure, then he better get the same shitty treatment as Bonds. If he's actually innocent somehow, then apologize. It's as simple as that.

[Tyche]

Jesus christ, keep deluding yourself into thinking that heresay can be admitted into a court of law. I'll say it again to make it perfectly clear: Barry Bonds is not on trial for using steroids, he's on trial for lying to a federal court. I for one believe Bonds shot up steroids like it was his fucking job, but I also believe in a man's right to defend himself, and that goes hand in hand with heresay evidence not being worth a damn in court. You need proof to convict someone. Get it? P-R-O-O-F. That pesky thing! And oh yeah, there's none against Clemens either.

You're obviously not prepared for this argument, you still taking polysci classes in high school? You need to get up to date. McNamee told FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS that clemens took steriods. You do realize, it's no longer hearsay, and admissible in court. Actually, a lot of "hearsay" is admissible in court.

[Mizango]

Yeah, I find it funny that everyone was quick to jump up and down on Bonds for the same thing, yet Bonds and Clemens have the same amount/similar evidence against them. It is funny in a sad sort of way, to see the media blitz this is now that Clemens is out. I like how people are trying to rationalize this, yet when it was Barry Bond alone on that pedestal he was vilified to no end, and rightfully so.

But Clemens deserves everything he is getting.


Edit: Akiyama brings up the double standard point right on the head. You can't be a fan and dislike one more than the other. Clemens STILL gets HoF votes (Well most say they would) but Bonds is a definite no and gets the asterisk.

They both are equally guilty and equally to blame for their own demise. I like when Clemens lawyer handing him a note to "calm down" on the podium yesterday in which Clemens replied "What, calm down? I can't ok!?". (Obvious paraphrase)

Made me lol.

[Deejay]

The Mitchell report was good in some regards, as in the people where there was tangible proof that they in fact used steroids. But to give names of people when the only evidence was some trainer, and not even give them a chance to defend themselves?

How long has it been since the mitchell report was announced? How long did it take for Andy Pettite or the dude from ESPN to admit their wrong-doing? 1-2 days? If Roger didn't do it then why did it take so fucking long for him to say anything.You mean to tell me that if the dude was truly innocent, he'd wait nearly a month to even go in front of a camera and proclaim his innocence? If someone tried to erase every accomplishment, every milestone, every record that you've set over the course of your career, you'd just sit there and watch? You expect us to believe him when he sat there and held a retarded 60 minutes interview (4 weeks later, mind you) and the best he can say is "it never happend."?

How stupid do you think we are? Or better yet, how stupid are you for defending him?

[Mizango]

Same with Giambi, he admitted it openly the first time he was asked about and apologized. People seem to be able to grasp the concept of live and let live and long as they feel the said person is not trying to fleece them and blind them with bullshit.

[Cephius]

Ceph...buddy...you...can't defend Clemens here without defending Bonds as well. You believe Bonds shot up steroids like it was his job?

OMG HOW DARE YOU CONVICT HIM WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE, WITHOUT PROOF! IT'S ALL HERESAY!

You see how this works?

No one is bringing charges against Clemens, he's only being tried in the court of public opinion.

...now, if he goes in front of Congress and says again that he never used steroids, and evidence pops up against him we have a different story...

...erm, well, cept for that he's white.

Actually I can. The fact that Bonds was a slim little guy for 75% of his career, and then all of a sudden blossomed to a 70-home-runs-per-year guy in his 40s is proof to me that he did steroids. You just don't gain 100 pounds of muscles out of nowhere. And you don't peak in your 40s, in any sport, in any world.

Clemens, on the other hand, is known for his hard work ethic and unlike Bonds, did not peak in his 40s, he just managed to stay competitive. His best years were arguably well before he was even accused of using steroids, and even then, if you look at Clemens body build in the 1980s and 1990s he has the EXACT same build now that he had back then. You say the case of Bonds and Clemens are the same thing, I say its apples and oranges. It is undeniably clear in Bond's case, but all you can say about Clemens is that he kept competing beyond when a normal body breaks down. Does that mean steroids? No. Does all of a sudden putting on 100 pounds of muscle and hitting 70 home runs in your 40s mean steroids? More than fucking likely.

And by the way, McNamee didn't stand up in court and testify against Clemens. He was sat down and threatened with jailtime unless he gave a name. It wasn't done in court, it was done in a meeting and he gave a statement which included Clemens. Which part of this doesn't sound like a witch hunt?

And lol @ all the other people who say "Well Petitte came forward! Giambi came forward, why didn't Clemens!" NEWS FLASH CLEMENS IS NOT GIAMBI OR PETTITE! All I'm saying is what if the guy is innocent, no one is even entertaining the idea, the only thing against him is that OTHER people are confessing and he "seems" to be guilty because "he looked funny on 60 minutes." Give me a break.

EDIT: You all seem convinced that I think Clemens is innocent, but I don't. I just don't know, and that's just it. You don't KNOW the truth, so instead of being a fucking sheep and going OMGZ HE CLEARLY TOOK STEROIDS TAKE AWAY ALL HIS AWARDS I'm simply pointing out the POSSIBILITY that he may be innocent, and at the very least deserves some leeway due to a 25 year career as one of the best pitchers in baseball. Cause I know this "possibly innocent" thing is difficult for some of you to grasp.