WotG: A Half-baked, Incomplete Product?

[Sykes]

Anyone else see X-Play's review of WotG? It originally aired on Wednesday as part of their "MMO Special" ... I caught it while I was channel-flipping today (I don't watch G4, but X-Play is occasionally worth stopping on). Anyway, the review was pretty spot-on for a 90-second overview in a somewhat mainstream publication. It next airs Saturday at 4 PM (today), but I'll try to grab it to stick on YouTube since it seems like the guy who uploads their web video is on vacation or something.

[BRP]

X-play pointed out that apparently no one was at all present in Al Zahbi during their review of ToAU because no one was playing. Hmmm. Yeah, X-play is shit.

[Pacha]

Excellent post Ark. I would lower the score on ToA a few points (because of the weak storyline) and maybe raise CoP one point, but other than that it pretty much sums it up (in a much more simplistic manner than I was able to manage).

[Sykes]

X-play pointed out that apparently no one was at all present in Al Zahbi during their review of ToAU because no one was playing. Hmmm. Yeah, X-play is shit.

Never claimed that they weren't. I only claimed that the sentiments that they expressed reflect how the vast majority of the people I have talked to feel as well.

[Septimus]

Excellent post Ark. I would lower the score on ToA a few points (because of the weak storyline) and maybe raise CoP one point, but other than that it pretty much sums it up (in a much more simplistic manner than I was able to manage).

You've said this a lot, please explain how was ToAU a weak storyline? It started off slowly, but there were still many nuances and subtleties in there that played out later in the storyline. (Like Alexander's involvement.)

[Zilong]

ToAU storyline is somewhat less epic than the impending destruction of the world theme Zilart and CoP goes by, but by far have a better storytelling than Zilart.

Though ToAU is complete win in the Serpent Generals Quests just because for once, they actually bother to go in depth on the important NPC storyline. The serpent generals quest gives and insight on both the Serpent Generals and Aphmau's past and personality.

All in all, I don't think it's inferior in storytelling than the expansions before that, hell I like it better than Zilart. The theme might not be as urgent/epic as Zilart or Promathia's theme until the end part, but calling the storyline weak is kinda bullshit because between mercenary rankup missions, serpent general quests. and the main storyline, it's a really nice plot that involves many of the characters.

Sure beats the one dialogue wonders that Zilart and Promathia are plagued with.

[Xrave]

Ok, so even if you take the recent security problems out of the equation. You're still left with a product that is not only lacking in initial content, but has also required multiple emergency maintenences to get to even a reasonable point of playability.

This is the first expansion that you've played during the release, isn't it?

[Sekkite]

ToAU storyline is somewhat less epic than the impending destruction of the world theme Zilart and CoP goes by, but by far have a better storytelling than Zilart.

Though ToAU is complete win in the Serpent Generals Quests just because for once, they actually bother to go in depth on the important NPC storyline. The serpent generals quest gives and insight on both the Serpent Generals and Aphmau's past and personality.

All in all, I don't think it's inferior in storytelling than the expansions before that, hell I like it better than Zilart. The theme might not be as urgent/epic as Zilart or Promathia's theme until the end part, but calling the storyline weak is kinda bullshit because between mercenary rankup missions, serpent general quests. and the main storyline, it's a really nice plot that involves many of the characters.

Sure beats the one dialogue wonders that Zilart and Promathia are plagued with.

Due to the very nature of the story lines, it is impossible for the ToAU story line to be as epic as the CoP story line.

As for the Serpent Generals quest line, it is amazing. I'm eagerly awaiting the finale for it.

[Pacha]

Excellent post Ark. I would lower the score on ToA a few points (because of the weak storyline) and maybe raise CoP one point, but other than that it pretty much sums it up (in a much more simplistic manner than I was able to manage).

You've said this a lot, please explain how was ToAU a weak storyline? It started off slowly, but there were still many nuances and subtleties in there that played out later in the storyline. (Like Alexander's involvement.)

When I say ToA had a weak storyline, I'm referring to all aspects of the main ToA missions. First, I felt that the character development was lacking in comparison to the other expansions. I wasn't drawn in by these characters as I was by Zeid and Lion in Zilart and Tenzen etc. from CoP. (I found Naja very annoying).

Second, the mission progression felt rushed and terse in that there were 48 seperate missions but the majority of them consisted of short CS's that often involved little more than walking from place to place and talking to Naja.

Third, the ToA missions did not culminate in the unlocking of a final endgame zone that others couldn't normally enter. Thus, at the end of the ToA missions I felt a big letdown because the rewards were unimpressive and there was no new zone to explore.

Fourth, although this may not be considered "storyline" the great majority of the fights in ToA were shockingly easy and could be completed by a small group or even solo. Missions in CoP (as well as many in Zilart) required a full party and they were actually challenging. I believe that FFXI missions should be experienced with others and this is oftentimes how many close friendships were started. From the start FFXI focused on group participation and the community and I think that's what set it apart.

The missions were a shining example of this in the past and I felt that ToA was lacking in regards to group participation in the missions. By making the ToA missions so easy, there was little or no feeling of accomplishment upon completion. This fourth reason is probably the biggest reason why I think the ToA missions were weak and I believe that the lack of group participation detracted from the ToA storyline because it did not require you to experience the fights etc. with a group of friends.

Anyway, this is merely my opinion on the ToA missions, I'm sure others have different ideas.

[Zilong]

When I say ToA had a weak storyline, I'm referring to all aspects of the main ToA missions. First, I felt that the character development was lacking in comparison to the other expansions. I wasn't drawn in by these characters as I was by Zeid and Lion in Zilart and Tenzen etc. from CoP.

lolwut

Second, the mission progression felt rushed and terse in that there were 48 seperate missions but the majority of them consisted of short CS's that often involved little more than walking from place to place and talking to Naja.

How is that any different from Zilart?

Third, the ToA missions did not culminate in the unlocking of a final endgame zone that others couldn't normally enter. Thus, at the end of the ToA missions I felt a big letdown because the rewards were unimpressive and there was no new zone to explore.

Salvage is unlocked via The Black Coffins btw.

Fourth, although this may not be considered "storyline" the great majority of the fights in ToA were shockingly easy and could be completed by a small group or even solo. Missions in CoP (as well as many in Zilart) required a full party and they were actually challenging. I believe that FFXI missions should be experienced with others and this is oftentimes how many close friendships were started. From the start FFXI focused on group participation and the community and I think that's what set it apart.

You're kidding right?

With merits and level 75 players, you can pretty much slaughter the missions with less than a full party on Zilart.

The black coffin is equivalent to tonberry/antica if not harder, Gessho is by far harder than Kamlanaut, the mission where you have to fight the BLU and the gears are at least as hard as Ark Angels, and the final BC is leap and bound harder than Eald'Narche, and those are the only fights that can be considered "hard" in ZM.

The missions were a shining example of this in the past and I felt that ToA was lacking in regards to group participation in the missions. By making the ToA missions so easy, there was little or no feeling of accomplishment upon completion. This fourth reason is probably the biggest reason why I think the ToA missions were weak and I believe that the lack of group participation detracted from the ToA storyline because it did not require you to experience the fights etc. with a group of friends.

I'm fucking amazed that you can praise zilart mission and complain about ToAU being too easy. Believe it or not, ZM is about as ridiculously easy and shallow as ToAU if not more. Don't confuse the nostalgia that you had doing the damn thing as an unmerited non 75 job as challenge, because really, ZMs are fucking joke in term of difficulty.

[Max™]

Don't people solo most of the ZM missions with Rdm/Nin or Pld/Rdm sometimes?

[Beckwin]

The first Black Coffin is a fairly innovative mission (in ffxi terms) and the same style shows up in an optional string of BCs, which is cool. Gessho and the final few fights present some hints of challenge and are generally pretty cool missions. ZMs didn't really get challenging/interesting until DM and beyond, and DM was optional for a reward and until Apocalypse Nigh, there was no reason/incentive to continue further past DM.

I'd say both mission sets are pretty comparable in content. I liked the stories in both too. ToAU had some really great characters, and the story connects in a modern sense to things going on in the Empire- Alzadaal exploration/research, the continuing war with the East, the Einherjar debacle, the mystery of the Black Coffin, engineered beastmen/monsters, Besieged, etc.

[Lexa]

Zilart was in no way, shape or form more difficult than ToAU. Even when I was in my early 60s, I still got every ZM mission from (and including) 4 (Tonberries) to sky in less than 24 hours (ZM5 being the biggest time sink simply due to all the travelling involved with all the headstones, and we all took a 6-hour nap between 8 and sky).

ToAU hasn't interested me in the same way, however, due to the final rewards. The rings aren't appealing to me (yet) as the jobs I would use either of them on, is not yet of any level to speak of, and the more necessary rewards have either been presented early enough that there was no massive reason to push forward (unless you're a storyline fan, which I am not). You get Salvage access after the Black Coffin. Beyond that, a person could easily get by in endgame without completing the ToAU missions unless they were going for Captain assault rank. As it is, that is the reason I will be finishing the storyline, because I'm closing in on having all 50 assaults done.

Zilart had a good reward in sky, because even though it's been done to death, Osode is still a valid gear option for many jobs, and there are still a possibility of getting other good rewards that you cannot get elsewhere. However, the difficulty of getting there? not so much.

[ryskar]

It's actually really common for people to think ZM was epic, because like Zilong said, they might not have been 75, might not have been merited/geared, etc. Having to constantly redo ZM4-ZM8 for lsmates, I can tell you that the fights are pathetically easy- ZM4 is easily duoable by a MNK/NIN and a healer.

The serpent general quests were made of absolute win, especially Mihli's/Zazarg's quests, if you bothered to do them. I liked how AU didn't use the whole 'save the world from impending doom' until the end, I'm sick of that kinda.

As far as character development, people mostly liked Lion for looks, and Zeid because he's involved in the main bastok storyline. At least in AU, the generals had more personality.

Mihli is kind of a bitch, even after you do her quest, but all in all she really is pretty cool. Zazarg is just plain awesome, Najelith is a just plain (as far as I saw it anyway), the Skyserpent guy is kind of like a run-of-the-mill superman alegory, and the hume male general is just an asshole. Aphmau is kind of cool, but I preferred Prishe as a lead role really.

That said, I absolutely loved AU, and I don't think it's really fair to be expecting an AU 2.0 from the expansion. I'm pretty indifferent myself, all I really care about is campaign.

[Zilong]

Mihli is kind of a bitch, even after you do her quest, but all in all she really is pretty cool. Zazarg is just plain awesome, Najelith is a just plain (as far as I saw it anyway), the Skyserpent guy is kind of like a run-of-the-mill superman alegory, and the hume male general is just an asshole. Aphmau is kind of cool, but I preferred Prishe as a lead role really.

Standard tsundere moe character I'd imagine. Gadalar is a pretty awesome character though, would have been a lot funnier if he was a tarutaru, then he'd definitely fit the stereotypical insane taru BLM (as well as fill the lack of taru general, I'm not buying into the half assed bullshit story on kaduru haiduru being a candidate and fucked up warping the generals, at least not until they make a decent quest CS about it).

Aphmau is...I don't know, I can't really say anything bad about her, but her whole character doesn't seem to appeal as much as Prishe did. Granted, Prishe swears, make death threats, and dropkick people over the course of CoP, which might make her a lot more dynamic character. Though Naja fill in that role quite nicely if not overdoing it on ToAU.

You get Salvage access after the Black Coffin. Beyond that, a person could easily get by in endgame without completing the ToAU missions unless they were going for Captain assault rank. As it is, that is the reason I will be finishing the storyline, because I'm closing in on having all 50 assaults done.

If you do any of the Salvage/Nyzul/Assault/Ashu Talif instances any regularly, the 3 rings are better than any DM earring/CoP ring/Apoc Earrings.

Sure it's a fairly limited use, but it's really fucking good if those events makes up a lot of your ingame activities.

[Lexa]

My only 75 job is (so far) PLD, and I am currently without an endgame shell due to my playtime being pretty much cut down to nothing due to school. It also means I do very little Salvage, because few people are willing to "pick up a stray PLD off the streets" so to speak ("BB MNK ONRY"). I do do Assault as often as I can, but since my static went kaplooey, I have to settle for shouting, which rarely yields 6-7 runs a week, as I used to do. The Ashu Talifs haven't interested me util recently, and I cannot find a reliable group to do Nyzul Isle with (shout Nyzul Isles aren't exactly synonymous with success). And even then, as PLD, the only ring I'd get any use out of would possibly be the melee ring in a DD situation, but without a static, very few people would take on a PLD for DD purposes, anyway.

The way I see it, I'll have much greater use for the rings when I have a second or third job at 75. I know of several others with other jobs at 75 as well, who don't do the abovementioned things for various reasons. My point was that it's perfectly acceptable to get by in an endgame scene without the final rewards from ToAU, whereas I don't know of a lot of established endgame shells who would accept someone without sky.

[ryskar]

When I think about it, if Mihli wasn't a bitch, she'd be kind of boring. And all the Mihli-rape hentai wouldn't be nearly as entertaining. I wish Gadalar was a taru though, seems kind of messed up that one race got left out of the rank of General.

[Zilong]

My only 75 job is (so far) PLD, and I am currently without an endgame shell due to my playtime being pretty much cut down to nothing due to school. It also means I do very little Salvage, because few people are willing to "pick up a stray PLD off the streets" so to speak ("BB MNK ONRY"). I do do Assault as often as I can, but since my static went kaplooey, I have to settle for shouting, which rarely yields 6-7 runs a week, as I used to do. The Ashu Talifs haven't interested me util recently, and I cannot find a reliable group to do Nyzul Isle with (shout Nyzul Isles aren't exactly synonymous with success). And even then, as PLD, the only ring I'd get any use out of would possibly be the melee ring in a DD situation, but without a static, very few people would take on a PLD for DD purposes, anyway.

Sure it's a fairly limited use, but it's really fucking good if those events makes up a lot of your ingame activities.

I really don't give a fuck about your situation and problem, I laid down the conditions where those rings will be awesome, and for a good number of people that actually does nyzul/salvage/assault/ashu talif regularly, those ring are worth their weight in gold with the 6-7 ACC/ATK + regen, 4INT/MND/CHR + refresh, or whatever crap the RNG ring has.

Obviously you're not part of that, but that makes it your problem, not mine, I'm personally enjoying the use of my ring on my regular nyzul/salvage runs.

[Pacha]

For clarification about what I said about the difficulty of the Zilart and ToA missions:

I view the missions from each expansion in light of their difficulty relative to character progression at the time of implimentation. This is because I do the missions as soon as they are put in the game. For instance, when Zilart was implimented, the missions were relatively difficult and required a full party because it was rare to even find NA's at lvl 75 at that time and there was none of the modern gear or merits that we currently have. DM is challenging even today (depending on setup) and the fights w/ Eald'narche and Kam'lanaut were also relatively challenging and definately required a full party at the time when they were implimented.

As far as ToA goes, the mission difficulty was more or less equivalent to Zilart, but there was one important difference...the gear, merits, etc. during ToA were light-years beyond what we had at the time of Zilart. This difference in character progression at the time of implimentation is why I say that Zilart was challenging and ToA was not. Of course, if you did Zilart missions with the current resources that we have, they would feel easy (but this is no surprise). However, at the time when they were implimented Zilart was difficult.

The thing that I'm trying to stress is: the reason why I thought ToA missions were easy is because they did not seem to take character progression into account when gauging difficulty. I believe that comparing the difficulty of Zilart and ToA missions in terms of what our current characters can do is like comparing apples and oranges. If you look at the difficulty of Zilart at the time of implimentation and then compare that to ToA at the time of implimentation then I believe that Zilart was more difficult (and the fights required full parties more often).

Anyway, this is how I look at things and it is merely my opinion, feel free to disagree.

[Lordwafik]

As far as ToA goes, the mission difficulty was more or less equivalent to Zilart, but there was one important difference...the gear, merits, etc. during ToA were light-years beyond what we had at the time of Zilart. This difference in character progression at the time of implimentation is why I say that Zilart was challenging and ToA was not. Of course, if you did Zilart missions with the current resources that we have, they would feel easy (but this is no surprise). However, at the time when they were implimented Zilart was difficult.

No, it wasn't. Speaking as a player who went through Zilart wayyyyyyyyyy back when, when there was nobody with the uber gear they have now (I'm talking blm using wands because a staff was HOLY SHIT HE HAS A STAFF), with a set of people who hadn't done Zilart before, zilart was relatively easy - even for those days. The only difficult part was ZM8, but by difficult I mean "We didn't sleep through the fight". The whole thing was a joke.

Did I mention I was one of the asuran earlybirds to get sky, while I was level 65? Yep, not even 75, that's how easy it was, and any old asuran who saw my gear back then knew how shitty it was (hi eremite rings and mrc.cpt belt, nice to meet you!)


I do love the train of thought you have though. Here's a snippet of one of your brain farts :

For instance, when Zilart was implimented, the missions were relatively difficult and required a full party because it was rare to even find NA's at lvl 75 at that time and there was none of the modern gear or merits that we currently have.

Am I getting it right that you're saying Zilart was challenging not because the content was challenging, but because of a factor completely out of the Zilart content's control (getting people to hit 75)?

So by your logic, JP Zilart was easy but NA Zilart was challenging? The JP people already had 75, some even having two! Oh deary me.