WotG: A Half-baked, Incomplete Product?

[layoneil]

So by your logic, JP Zilart was easy but NA Zilart was challenging? The JP people already had 75, some even having two! Oh deary me.

and in that case ToAU missions would be pretty hard for those unmeritted EU players without Ridills and Koenig bodies too.

missions aren't built for the top flight, max merit, max gear players. they need to be accessible enough for the majority of the population to partake in.

[Meepein]

I am going with the herd here, Zilart was easy. I did ZM4 when I was like THF63 or something, the only person who died was the tank who did not listen to the 'clear Tonberry hate' bit (though, it was amusing to watch him eat a Everyone's Rancor for like 10k.) ZM6 is a complete, utter joke. ZM8, I had the help of 3x 75's (I was like 65 at the time), and we owned the thing. About the only challenge in all of Zilart was Divine Might, and that is optional and really not that hard for a group of competent 75's.

I think we were all 'spoiled' by the difficulty of CoP (or, at least, how it was in the beginning.) CoP was the most difficult expansion, though it was also accessable (one of my beefs on Zilart was you could not even get the first CS til you got Rank 6, which meant you had to be 60+.) CoP, with the stupid level caps, allowed people to get into it all relatively quickly, it just was difficult for your normal lvl 30'ish with ok gear. Yeah, the level caps suck when you past them, but I know a number of people that did CoP missions as they leveled. That is far better than never looking at an expensions content til you get around 60'ish (or have a few high level friends go kill the Shadow Lord for you.)

The Zilart missions are really made of pure fail. There are very few of them (17 compared to 46 ToAU and 30+ for CoP), and most of them were CS's. Oh, you might complain about the CS missions in ToAU, but Zilart had fewer BCNM's than both CoP (which had a ton of fights) and ToAU (yeah, they were easy, but they were a lot more fun than going against a few Anticans or Tonberries.) The fact that, until A. Nigh was released, no one really gave a crap about finishing Zilart kinda says something.

[Xno Kappa]

Why is it every time someone bitches about how easy ToAU was they always seem to have some kind of "I luvz CoP /wrist" syndrome? In my eyes ToAU set the standard on how expansions should be done in FFXI.

[Lexa]

I really don't give a fuck about your situation and problem, I laid down the conditions where those rings will be awesome, and for a good number of people that actually does nyzul/salvage/assault/ashu talif regularly, those ring are worth their weight in gold with the 6-7 ACC/ATK + regen, 4INT/MND/CHR + refresh, or whatever crap the RNG ring has.

And I laid down an example of conditions where those rings would be inventory -1, and for a good number of people that does NOT do those things regularely, or does not have a job that benefits from those rings, they're not worth jack shit.

[Zilong]

Why is it every time someone bitches about how easy ToAU was they always seem to have some kind of "I luvz CoP /wrist" syndrome? In my eyes ToAU set the standard on how expansions should be done in FFXI.

I personally wouldn't call it a standard, but the fact of the matter is that the whole difficulty level is more doable for a good amount of people. Though I really enjoyed going through CoP, even though most people doesn't if SE need to nerf the goddamn missions to satisfy the population.

And I laid down an example of conditions where those rings would be inventory -1, and for a good number of people that does NOT do those things regularely, or does not have a job that benefits from those rings, they're not worth jack shit.

Like I said, that's your fucking problem. The way you're bitching right now is like saying how Noble Tunic is useless because you don't have high level WHM to use it.

As far as ToA goes, the mission difficulty was more or less equivalent to Zilart, but there was one important difference...the gear, merits, etc. during ToA were light-years beyond what we had at the time of Zilart. This difference in character progression at the time of implimentation is why I say that Zilart was challenging and ToA was not. Of course, if you did Zilart missions with the current resources that we have, they would feel easy (but this is no surprise). However, at the time when they were implimented Zilart was difficult.

This is pretty fucking dumb.

And for all it's worth, like a lot of people here already said, ZM is fucking easy even without those "advancement"

The thing that I'm trying to stress is: the reason why I thought ToA missions were easy is because they did not seem to take character progression into account when gauging difficulty.

God Forbid SE is trying to make the mission more appealing to casual player who doesn't whore merit/gear or the lower echelon of the FFXI playerbase (hint: skill-less retards are players too)

I mean we all know how FFXI is filled with many talented, great geared and merited players, which is why you can pick up random people to accomplish everything in this game with fair ease, and shit like CoP isn't nerfed because the playerbase thinks it's too hard right?

Wait...

The fact that, until A. Nigh was released, no one really gave a crap about finishing Zilart kinda says something.

Truer words have never been spoken...

Seriously, until the whole Storms of Fate > Apoc Nigh line of quest is released, mostly everyone just stop at 13, since you can access sky and DM by that point, which is the only worthwhile thing from ZM.

[ronin sparthos]

RoZ set the standard of what rewards should be.

CoP set the standard for what missions should be like (yes, with or without the level caps missions should be hard.)

ToAU set the standard for what casual content/endgame activities should be like.

Missionwise RoZ was a joke, i cleared through to sky on a lvl62 sam with a few higher levels. Antica were a joke, Tonberries were a joke and ZM5 was the dumbest idea for a mission ever. ZM8 and non-DM Ark Angels were as hard as RoZ got not to mention the massive letdown that Elde'narche was. RoZ was designed for high level 60s and 70s so i imagine all the merits these days makes it even more of a joke but its nothing that 6 level 65-70s couldnt beat. No reward for clearing made RoZ strictly for bragging rights once you got sky.

Missionwise CoP was challenging, anyone that beat promies pre-nerf would easily agree its the most challenging event you can probably do on a level 30 job which is what made the level caps desireable for some because you didnt have to be an almighty 75 to get mission progress done. CoP lovers? hell i hated CoP every step of the way for the difficulty level and having to have perfect teamwork to win however i cannot think of a better feeling that CoP gave when you cleared missions and got access to new zones that few others have/had.

The story was epic, it tested your skills but didnt hesistate to reward you for a job well done. The post-job well done missions were fun as well and again didnt hesitate to reward you (and forced you to finish zilart, get avatars, beat charlie's mithras, duel the wyrmking etc)

ToA seemed to try to appease to all the players that complained CoP was too hard so it was less of a hands on mission line and more a slideshow with a few breaks for your input. The missions were mostly cutscenes which was nice and all but the lack of interactions (BCNMs) that remotely stood in your way to completion was dissapointing. (Gessho, Gears and Alex-Razfahd were the 3 roadblocks from what i did.)

I assume SE compensated for harder missions with adding Assault for a 'sidestory' but it didnt feel like anything you did in Assault helped anyone but yourself (captain badge, and i think that assault have rolled into the missions more)

Salvage was the 'endgame' for ToA but it didnt take much to access it. Einherjar has more of a storyline than Salvage but it seems like SE just said to hell with story for Salvage/Nyzul. (Hell, Dynamis even had a story as simple as it may have been.)

I like that ToA brought more ease to doing things ingame but i dont think storywise it had the wittyness that CoP had in terms of unique BCNMs or even something RoZ-esque with a DM kind of fight.

[Zilong]

I like that ToA brought more ease to doing things ingame but i dont think storywise it had the wittyness that CoP had in terms of unique BCNMs or even something RoZ-esque with a DM kind of fight.

I'd say assaults made up for the lack of unique BCNMs, as far as something DM like, I would say the einherjar latter wings and Valgrind is pretty close to that.

I assume SE compensated for harder missions with adding Assault for a 'sidestory' but it didnt feel like anything you did in Assault helped anyone but yourself (captain badge, and i think that assault have rolled into the missions more)

Aww come on, it helped Falzum to shape up and find the love of his life, Liliroon to understand her master's final message, and Naja get a fuckton of moolah.

Beside, assault gives you the reasoning behind the missions you do, and some of the assaults gets really interesting as far as the whole mission purpose is concerned.

[ronin sparthos]

Id concede the later Assault stories as being nice (Rongelouts and that 300 refrence was pretty funny when i first saw it)

I wanted more of a special wing of Salvage that pitted you against the 4 chariots for some loot and backstory on them. More of what Limbus tried to do with CS Apollyon (and more of the Alzadaal people in general)

A fair fight against the 5 serpent generals for items that didnt force people to go to fanfest would have been witty and add more to your move up the ranks of ahts millitary, and would have had an 'epic' feel to it.

Using the 3beastkings in a KS99 kinda deal with imperial standing was something i wanted to see but ISNM just seemed to be abandoned for no reason. (Gurfy + Gere / Gulool + Illuyankas / Medusa + Nemean Lion with some trekking to there hideouts with appropriate rewards / unique beastking loots much like Bahamut.)

I just felt in terms of charm ToA dropped the ball with the witty BCNMs and creative encounters that CoP had and to a lesser extent RoZs.

Einherjar / Chocobo Circuit were ideas that could have been abandoned for more unique encounters. Odin could have played his part in a better way than 'clear this clusterfuck of mobs, then another, then another -> we'll see you in a couple of months if your lucky' Chocobo Raising is a novelty, they could have at least let you use your raised birds in zones that have no chocogals.

What ever happened to the tried and true 'pop item for bigger, more epic battle' from smaller battles?

[Lexa]

Like I said, that's your fucking problem. The way you're bitching right now is like saying how Noble Tunic is useless because you don't have high level WHM to use it.

I'm not bitching, I don't really give a crap about those rings, positively or negatively. I'm merely pointing out the differences in the usefulness of the rewards granted from ZMs versus ToAU, and in that comparison, ToAU comes up short. The rings benefit a lot of people, true, but they're not a necessity to do endgame. Sky is, if you wish to play semantics, not a necessity, either, but I know of a lot more shells who'd reject a sky-less applicant than an applicant without the ToAU rings.

[Zilong]

Sky is, if you wish to play semantics, not a necessity, either, but I know of a lot more shells who'd reject a sky-less applicant than an applicant without the ToAU rings.

Why the fuck are you comparing item reward to zone access?

If you wanna play retarded comparison, compare not having access to Salvage vs not having access to sky.

[Lexa]

Sky is, if you wish to play semantics, not a necessity, either, but I know of a lot more shells who'd reject a sky-less applicant than an applicant without the ToAU rings.

Why the fuck are you comparing item reward to zone access?

If you wanna play retarded comparison, compare not having access to Salvage vs not having access to sky.

I was doing an overall comparison of the rewards, and as for Salvage vs Sky, the ratio evens out a bit more, but I still know of shells who would accept someone w/o Salvage access (new shells, shells with no interest in doing Salvage as their own events, etc), whereas an endgame shell with a player without Sky? Sky is expected to have, even by the brand new, retarded startup shells who never last a month. The ToAU rings are certainly not, nor is Salvage - only more established shells are guaranteed to reject you without Salvage access. I'm just saying that in my opinion, overall, the ZM rewards are "more required" to have in an endgame setting than the ToAU rewards.

[Lordwafik]

compare DM earrings to ToaU rings.

Do not compare having sky access to having ToaU rings. That is comparing apples to submarines.

Also, who on earth applies saying "I have a DM earring" on an LS application?

[Despain]

compare DM earrings to ToaU rings.

Do not compare having sky access to having ToaU rings. That is comparing apples to submarines.

Also, who on earth applies saying "I have a DM earring" on an LS application?

DM is serious.

[Kimiko]

compare DM earrings to ToaU rings.

Do not compare having sky access to having ToaU rings. That is comparing apples to submarines.

Also, who on earth applies saying "I have a DM earring" on an LS application?

DM is serious.

Don't take DM for

[Plow]

Fourth, although this may not be considered "storyline" the great majority of the fights in ToA were shockingly easy and could be completed by a small group or even solo. Missions in CoP (as well as many in Zilart) required a full party and they were actually challenging. I believe that FFXI missions should be experienced with others and this is oftentimes how many close friendships were started. From the start FFXI focused on group participation and the community and I think that's what set it apart.

You're kidding right?

With merits and level 75 players, you can pretty much slaughter the missions with less than a full party on Zilart.

The black coffin is equivalent to tonberry/antica if not harder, Gessho is by far harder than Kamlanaut, the mission where you have to fight the BLU and the gears are at least as hard as Ark Angels, and the final BC is leap and bound harder than Eald'Narche, and those are the only fights that can be considered "hard" in ZM.

DM is still dramatically harder than any ToAU mission.

The missions were a shining example of this in the past and I felt that ToA was lacking in regards to group participation in the missions. By making the ToA missions so easy, there was little or no feeling of accomplishment upon completion. This fourth reason is probably the biggest reason why I think the ToA missions were weak and I believe that the lack of group participation detracted from the ToA storyline because it did not require you to experience the fights etc. with a group of friends.

I'm fucking amazed that you can praise zilart mission and complain about ToAU being too easy. Believe it or not, ZM is about as ridiculously easy and shallow as ToAU if not more. Don't confuse the nostalgia that you had doing the damn thing as an unmerited non 75 job as challenge, because really, ZMs are fucking joke in term of difficulty.

That's pretty much exactly the point. When ZM's came out we didn't have fully decked out merited 75's to run everyone through, a lot of us were actually challenged to run them in the 60's (so that we could go to sky and spirits within stuff then leave alliance while we sleep/medi for more tp wewt!). Just because the huge majority of the current player base had it easy for ZM's doesn't mean they weren't challenging at the time.

It all comes down to them refusing to follow any kind of progression, making it so that the newest 75's with the worst gear are completely capable of anything in the entire game as long as they'll listen. They can't release any content that actually challenges people at this point without level caps because they will not allow for balancing around available gear and instead try to balance the gear around the past content.

[BRP]

RotZ and ToAU missions(and most national missions) are missions without level caps. You can't really admit to them being too easy and dislike level caps at the same time unless you believe people shouldn't be able to do missions until level 75. Had you manually or forced yourself to be level 50, 60, or 70 in these missions I'd think the experience would have been quite different than watching a MNK75 and RDM75 duo it.

[Zilong]

Fourth, although this may not be considered "storyline" the great majority of the fights in ToA were shockingly easy and could be completed by a small group or even solo. Missions in CoP (as well as many in Zilart) required a full party and they were actually challenging. I believe that FFXI missions should be experienced with others and this is oftentimes how many close friendships were started. From the start FFXI focused on group participation and the community and I think that's what set it apart.

You're kidding right?

With merits and level 75 players, you can pretty much slaughter the missions with less than a full party on Zilart.

The black coffin is equivalent to tonberry/antica if not harder, Gessho is by far harder than Kamlanaut, the mission where you have to fight the BLU and the gears are at least as hard as Ark Angels, and the final BC is leap and bound harder than Eald'Narche, and those are the only fights that can be considered "hard" in ZM.

DM is still dramatically harder than any ToAU mission.

DM isn't part of the main storyline, it's an additional quest added after the completion of the ZM, kinda like say, Valgrind Chamber.

That's pretty much exactly the point. When ZM's came out we didn't have fully decked out merited 75's to run everyone through, a lot of us were actually challenged to run them in the 60's (so that we could go to sky and spirits within stuff then leave alliance while we sleep/medi for more tp wewt!). Just because the huge majority of the current player base had it easy for ZM's doesn't mean they weren't challenging at the time.

Just because the huge majority of the current player base had it easy for ToAU, doesn't mean that they weren't challenging for those people who aren't 75 and merited/geared to the gill.

The only real way to make missions any challenging is to create an artificial limitations like say, level cap, or pathoses in salvage, but we all know how much everyone love that.

I mean they could have made ToAU missions on the higher tier of difficulties as 75 that you can't really beat without a specific job combination with all merits capped and all geared up with the best fucking gear possible, but that would really beat the fucking purpose of ToAU being an expansion designed for the casual players as far as most of the contents are concerned.