A sad observation: RMT's are now fencing stolen goods.

[Fadian]

Here is something that came to mind. All virtual goods are owned by SE. They created the game and everything in it. The value of real life money in regards to the goods in game is only based of supply and demand. We pay *Or I would like to call it* Rent the account we own. We by the product, pay for an account which is ours. But we don't actually own everything in it. Let's say any form of retribution has to be made to people who had their accounts stolen and/or hacked. Would they just pay for the 1 month fee? Or if they found the value of which the gil was sold do they get paid that value amount? After reading what i'm trying to see, it may sound confusing but I'm sure someone will understand.

You pay for entertainment per month, aka the game. There is a set value for that. We can provide information on that payment through our statements at our banks and/or credit card company.

Also, in order for SE to provide the game and service to the US, don't they need to comply with our government and copyright the game and items within the game within the terms of the copyright? If SE wanted to, based on US law, can't they go after IGE with a lawsuit claiming they illegally got control of property owned by SE by not paying the fee *month fee* on that account. The owner of that account can backup SE on that claim and that would be a valid reason for a lawsuit to take place within US borders?

[Fhqwghads]

I doubt very seriously that IGE has anything to do with the accounts being hacked. Like was mentioned, IGE is only a broker as far as I know, and have no farming characters. What the current situation shows is that the STF is clearly having a huge impact on the gil farmers, and the gil farmers, not IGE, are resorting to desperate measure in order to obtain virtual currency & items to sell to the brokers like IGE.

Hopefully now that the currency farmers have begun to have a critical impact on the game (hacking accounts goes WAY beyond cock-blocking mobs, mass crafting, fish-botting, etc.) SE and Blizzard as well as other MMOs will see exactly how incredibly destructive currency farmers are when backed into a corner. I think they're getting a clue at this point, now that I read in other threads how they're starting to sue IGE. Gotta start somewhere I suppose...

[Khamsin]

I doubt very seriously that IGE has anything to do with the accounts being hacked. Like was mentioned, IGE is only a broker as far as I know, and have no farming characters. What the current situation shows is that the STF is clearly having a huge impact on the gil farmers, and the gil farmers, not IGE, are resorting to desperate measure in order to obtain virtual currency & items to sell to the brokers like IGE.

Hopefully now that the currency farmers have begun to have a critical impact on the game (hacking accounts goes WAY beyond cock-blocking mobs, mass crafting, fish-botting, etc.) SE and Blizzard as well as other MMOs will see exactly how incredibly destructive currency farmers are when backed into a corner. I think they're getting a clue at this point, now that I read in other threads how they're starting to sue IGE. Gotta start somewhere I suppose...

I doubt IGE employees are themselves doing the hacking, but I wouldn't be surprised if the hacked accounts end up getting sold by IGE.

[Kyreth]

I doubt very seriously that IGE has anything to do with the accounts being hacked. Like was mentioned, IGE is only a broker as far as I know, and have no farming characters. What the current situation shows is that the STF is clearly having a huge impact on the gil farmers, and the gil farmers, not IGE, are resorting to desperate measure in order to obtain virtual currency & items to sell to the brokers like IGE.

Exactly. Without IGE and it's ilk, RMT groups would have no easy way to turn liquidated account contents into $$$. And IGE knows where it's product is coming from. With that information, the thieves can be found and punished. Personally, I'd vote for dropping them hogtied into the middle of the next Fan Faire with a list of their thefts stuck to their head, but the police frown on lynch mobs. If they don't supply the information, that's obstructive if not conspiring with RMT.

Hopefully now that the currency farmers have begun to have a critical impact on the game (hacking accounts goes WAY beyond cock-blocking mobs, mass crafting, fish-botting, etc.) SE and Blizzard as well as other MMOs will see exactly how incredibly destructive currency farmers are when backed into a corner. I think they're getting a clue at this point, now that I read in other threads how they're starting to sue IGE. Gotta start somewhere I suppose...

RMT has always been this kind of destructive influence. It's just people want to look the other way for an easy out. The dog has gone rabid. It's time to shoot the thing.

[mikazuki]

seriously...
IGE may be filthy criminals but they're currently untouchable by law because the company is based in Vanuatu.
"Vanuatu is a tax haven that does not release account information to other governments and law-enforcement agencies."
etc.

it will be years before this situation changes, and until then lawsuits are not a strong way to combat RMT, in addition the farmers based in china are also relatively difficult to prosecute due to deficiencies in the chinese legal system (although they do have the death penalty, so maybe your dreams will come true someday).

[Khamsin]

seriously...
IGE may be filthy criminals but they're currently untouchable by law because the company is based in Vanuatu.
"Vanuatu is a tax haven that does not release account information to other governments and law-enforcement agencies."
etc.

it will be years before this situation changes, and until then lawsuits are not a strong way to combat RMT, in addition the farmers based in china are also relatively difficult to prosecute due to deficiencies in the chinese legal system (although they do have the death penalty, so maybe your dreams will come true someday).

They can still eradicate their US branches, and cockblock payments made from within the US to IGE.

[ronin sparthos]

SE could turn to a 'shock and awe' strategy, ban a few accounts involved in Gilbuying and make a spectacle of them in an attempt to scare the masses away from buying gil at all. Combine that with the STF and more cheat tool bans for best effect.

[Gergall]

I agree. Banning gilbuyers is critical. No matter how much gilsellers are fought off, the demand for RMT remains steady and that encourages gilsellers to keep hacking and ruining the game.

Supposing SE actually met it's goal of removing all RMT, what would happen? Demand versus supply of RMT gil would increase, prices would peak, and gilsellers would have more of an incentive to keep returning.

SE needs to remove all of the buyers AND the sellers (repeatedly) until the buyers are sick of wasting their money and the sellers can make more profit on some other MMO.

[tuggler]

I agree. Banning gilbuyers is critical. No matter how much gilsellers are fought off, the demand for RMT remains steady and that encourages gilsellers to keep hacking and ruining the game.

Supposing SE actually met it's goal of removing all RMT, what would happen? Demand versus supply of RMT gil would increase, prices would peak, and gilsellers would have more of an incentive to keep returning.

SE needs to remove all of the buyers AND the sellers (repeatedly) until the buyers are sick of wasting their money and the sellers can make more profit on some other MMO.

Even if they didn't perma-ban them and just confiscated the gil and temp-banned them that'd work too.

[ryskar]

RMT has always been this kind of destructive influence. It's just people want to look the other way for an easy out. The dog has gone rabid. It's time to shoot the thing.

just like Resident Evil opening!

[Khamsin]

The better solution would be to eliminate gilselling rather than attempt to catch gilbuying. There are much much fewer gilsellers than gilbuyers, so not only would the task of banning gilbuyers be that much more monumental, but its harder to trace them than it is to trace the gilsellers. In fact, only way to find a gilbuyer is to find the gilseller first, and then see who they traded money to. So it's an extra step, and therefore more complicated than banning gilsellers.

Furthermore, without a supply of gil for people to buy, they can't buy gil. Demand will become irrelevant without RMT. The minimalist effective approach, therefore, is to ban the gilsellers and, by default, gilbuying will cease with no further effort on SE's part.

[tuggler]

The better solution would be to eliminate gilselling rather than attempt to catch gilbuying. There are much much fewer gilsellers than gilbuyers, so not only would the task of banning gilbuyers be that much more monumental, but its harder to trace them than it is to trace the gilsellers. In fact, only way to find a gilbuyer is to find the gilseller first, and then see who they traded money to. So it's an extra step, and therefore more complicated than banning gilsellers.

Furthermore, without a supply of gil for people to buy, they can't buy gil. Demand will become irrelevant without RMT. The minimalist effective approach, therefore, is to ban the gilsellers and, by default, gilbuying will cease with no further effort on SE's part.

True, but gilsellers keep returning and don't stick to the rules, whereas gilbuyers will either not bother coming back or will eventually learn to stick to the rules. The only problem then new gilbuyers. Either way, it's a neverending struggle, I guess, whichever approach you take.

[Khamsin]

The better solution would be to eliminate gilselling rather than attempt to catch gilbuying. There are much much fewer gilsellers than gilbuyers, so not only would the task of banning gilbuyers be that much more monumental, but its harder to trace them than it is to trace the gilsellers. In fact, only way to find a gilbuyer is to find the gilseller first, and then see who they traded money to. So it's an extra step, and therefore more complicated than banning gilsellers.

Furthermore, without a supply of gil for people to buy, they can't buy gil. Demand will become irrelevant without RMT. The minimalist effective approach, therefore, is to ban the gilsellers and, by default, gilbuying will cease with no further effort on SE's part.

True, but gilsellers keep returning and don't stick to the rules, whereas gilbuyers will either not bother coming back or will eventually learn to stick to the rules. The only problem then new gilbuyers. Either way, it's a neverending struggle, I guess, whichever approach you take.

I either personally know or have heard of many people across servers who have lost their account in any number of ways, whether through banning, hacking, or having sold it long ago, and the vast majority of them have come back. Sometimes multiple times. Same goes for those who "quit".

I'm willing to bet they'll be just as tenacious as the gilsellers in coming back. Especially since the ones who buy gil in the first place are probably more dedicated to the game than others, and they'll likely just buy a new account and keep going. I hear there's a lot of fresh accounts going on sale this time of year.

[Gergall]

Furthermore, without a supply of gil for people to buy, they can't buy gil. Demand will become irrelevant without RMT. The minimalist effective approach, therefore, is to ban the gilsellers and, by default, gilbuying will cease with no further effort on SE's part.

1) All the gilsellers are banned and, because STF is so effective, don't come back because it isn't worth it
2) The price on the remaining stock at IGE increases a bit
3) Gilsellers appear in FFXI (ie, it's "worth it" again because the price goes up)

[Khamsin]

Furthermore, without a supply of gil for people to buy, they can't buy gil. Demand will become irrelevant without RMT. The minimalist effective approach, therefore, is to ban the gilsellers and, by default, gilbuying will cease with no further effort on SE's part.

1) All the gilsellers are banned and, because STF is so effective, don't come back because it isn't worth it
2) The price on the remaining stock at IGE increases a bit
3) Gilsellers appear in FFXI (ie, it's "worth it" again because the price goes up)

4) STF bans them with the same effectiveness as in step 1, and no gil is able to be sold regardless of worth.

[Fhqwghads]

I think the hacking of accounts is the last measure for currency farmers to try to keep a decent profit margin. With their accounts repeatedly getting nuked trying to exploit normal game mechanics, they have to do something. If the price for online currency continues to rise, even the most stubborn gil buyer will balk and not make a purchase. I think after SE introduces some better account security measures which will help to prevent RMT hackers from liquidating hacked characters, that RMT will truly move on. If they can't manipulate game mechanics nor hack characters, there's not much left for them to do. Maybe show up at our homes IRL and force us to hand over our accounts at gunpoint?

[Jeny]

Maybe show up at our homes IRL and force us to hand over our accounts at gunpoint?

Don't give them ideas. ~.~

[Nazrious]

Theres a few problems with bring the law into this situation.

1) Even if the U.S courts smashed every asset IGE or any RMT company had in the US, there still based out of the country.
2) Because sale of goods is made on line and they are out of the country there is no way to block the business they do in the US.
3) Even if some how the effort was made to do 2 a simple name change and instead of IGE owned by mark seller its now IGC owned by mathew seller and poof no more pesky legal issues, unless there brought up again.
4) in the event that the company has no ties directly to the U.S other then sale over the internet there is very very very very little recourse.
5) even if the RMT site was based wholly in the US the law really is ultra hazy on this topic.
5a) RMT don't steal gil, at every moment in time SE is in full control and possession of all items and accounts in the game.
5b) RMT use buy and sell, however a lawyer worth his salt will easily be able to explain that away buy simply stating what is being sold is a service and not a product. RMT sell u the service of gil gathering not the gil itself.
5b1) Since RMTs will argue service they will try then to relate themselves with a shop owner selling CD's rather then the pirate stealing the music and selling them.
5b2) RMTs will argue the fact that they pay subscription fees grants them the liberty to gather as much gil as they want in the game and trade it to other players in the same game. Technically RMT are not conductiong themselves out of the scope of any other player while there on the game. One player can trade another player gil. All sales are made outside of the game.. this further limits what SE can do towards statign a cause of action.
6) Even given all that if a law suit was to be successfully carried out and action was then taken by SE against buyers of gil, if that information was even made available, SE will then be open to law suits themselves.
7) RMT sites/companys can be striped down and rebuilt in a manner of days.

so basically after years of work and huge huge cost to the US/ State government who pursues the action out of country RMT companies remain unaffected and those who decide to open up in the US need only base their accounts out of the country and flee should they be caught and not want to pay what the court might charge them to pay.

Yeah don't count on any kind of legal suit going to far or gettign any worth while results if it originates in the government sector.

the US government does not care to spend millions to go after RMTs.

It would be private sector all the way so Blizz and other MMO developers would have to flip the bill.

now is that how it should be?
Well in the real world should be and ought to be don't really count unless people with power want them too.

[Gergall]

If the price for online currency continues to rise, even the most stubborn gil buyer will balk and not make a purchase.

Now THAT is a happy thought ^_^

[Mizango]

If the price for online currency continues to rise, even the most stubborn gil buyer will balk and not make a purchase.

Now THAT is a happy thought ^_^

No kidding. It would still be humorous to see a list though.