A sad observation: RMT's are now fencing stolen goods.

[ronin sparthos]

So how long before someone lobbys for a law that would allow companies to directly sue IGE and win? One that doesn't rely on careful wording and can't be escaped by how carefully you describe your services. One that just says "SE owns FFXI and has the final say on what FFXI-related services are provided by third parties." One that allows any competent judge to look at the situation and recognize what's going on, and allow IGE to be sued successfully no matter what their lawyers do to try and get out of it.

This is how the law -should- work, but these days its more about who can throw more legal terms and pull money out of the ass moreso than common sense justice.

Things like this should be cut 'n dry, the evidence is all there and its blatent that IGE is capitalizing on other peoples work via cyber theft, not to mention are piggybacking on MMO companies for profits all while hiding behind a paper-thin veil of being merely 'brokers'.

[oxx2]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...SL._AA280_.jpg

[Xrave]

In regards to IGE:

TOS != Law
IGE isn't breaking any laws...they're just breaking rules.

You can ban for breaking rules...not sue.

[Khamsin]

What about copyright infringement? They're making money offering FFXI-related services without permission or appropriate license from SE. You can't just make money using the FFXI name without approval, can you? e.g. would I be able to sell FFXI T-shirts without contacting SE?

[Xrave]

I don't think gil is copyrighted (or characters), but they wouldn't be making a profit off of the name gil or the character names...just the actual item...and those "items" don't have any type of protection.

Just the Final Fantasy brand is under a copyright, so the shirts would possibly fall under copyright infringement (if the name was on them). You could have a shirt of a chocobo, but unless that picture/logo is copyrigthed...then there would be no infringement.

[Gergall]

I don't think gil is copyrighted (or characters), but they wouldn't be making a profit off of the name gil or the character names...just the actual item...and those "items" don't have any type of protection.

Just the Final Fantasy brand is under a copyright, so the shirts would possibly fall under copyright infringement (if the name was on them). You could have a shirt of a chocobo, but unless that picture/logo is copyrigthed...then there would be no infringement.

An FFXI logo is clearly displayed on the IGE home page and they use that page to make money.

[Xrave]

Then all you could do is sue to take down the logo, but you would send a warning letter first to take it down...and if they didn't SE probably wouldn't pursue it farther since it wouldn't be beneficial. The gil selling would still happen and SE would just spend money on not having the FFXI logo displayed, but the name of the game would still be there.

[Khamsin]

I don't think gil is copyrighted (or characters), but they wouldn't be making a profit off of the name gil or the character names...just the actual item...and those "items" don't have any type of protection.

Just the Final Fantasy brand is under a copyright, so the shirts would possibly fall under copyright infringement (if the name was on them). You could have a shirt of a chocobo, but unless that picture/logo is copyrigthed...then there would be no infringement.

I didn't mean gil or characters being copyrighted, I meant the fact that they are selling FFXI-related services. They are using FFXI, SE's property, to make money. Not the gil/characters/etc, but the actual game/software itself (and services related to it).

I can't make a business using a pirated version of Photoshop, 3DSMax, or Borland C++, I can't even use a pirated font (like Helvetica). Hell, if I use a Pantone color, I even have to pay for the ability to use that.

So why can't SE require IGE to obtain a license to use FFXI/offer FFXI-related services for commercial purposes?

Another example, take a look at Oblivion. They have third-party plugin makers that charge money for their Oblivion plugins, making a profit off of that game. There's even terms and conditions with respect to Bethsoft on that.

[Xrave]

I do not know.

But it hasn't happened yet because it probably hasn't been profitable/worth SE's time.

[Kyreth]

In my opinion, and I could be wrong...

The best way to get rid of RMT would be to remove the difficulty of farming gil, items, etc...

Make item drops more plentiful, make gil drops more common, NM's spawn much much more, etc etc.

Make a system of plenty and the need for RMT, and therefore their power - will go by the wayside.

You would be wrong.

The only result in that case is inflation, and RMT's would simply be serving up larger amounts of Gil to feed the need for whatever -was- rare.

If nothing was rare, the game would be over with in a hurry due to all of use being in the best gear in no time flat...the only thing increasing the number of Gil in the game does is make everything higher priced (and increasing item drops doesn't really help much, as people will then toss money at whatever remains uncommon.)

[Nazrious]

Khamsin

After reading your post I have to say you did not bother to read through my post.

Sure u made comments after sections but you failed to read for understanding.

Also please do not make comments about laws, you obviously do not have any background in the study or practice of Law.

1) IGE is in no way breaking any laws dealing with copyright infringement.


"I didn't mean gil or characters being copyrighted, I meant the fact that they are selling FFXI-related services. They are using FFXI, SE's property, to make money. Not the gil/characters/etc, but the actual game/software itself (and services related to it).

I can't make a business using a pirated version of Photoshop, 3DSMax, or Borland C++, I can't even use a pirated font (like Helvetica). Hell, if I use a Pantone color, I even have to pay for the ability to use that.

So why can't SE require IGE to obtain a license to use FFXI/offer FFXI-related services for commercial purposes?"

There business is to provide a service not to provide an item. while their service is providing gil gold adena or w/e the currency for the game played might be they are not selling the item. This means that unlike the bootlegger who sells CDs with "Stolen" programs on them, IGE while violating the rules of SE are not violating the laws of the US.
If IGE used pirated versions of the game to get gil etc, even though they are brokers and don't farm but for arguments sake, then SE could ban them and even sue them under copy right laws.
However I'm pretty sure they use the actual software and reg codes which they buy from SE.

Also you could make a product using all those programs you listed and be able to copyright the program 100% legally. However when the companies found out about your illegal use and pirating they would sue you and the FBI would probably jail/ have you fined. But you would still own the product/item you developed, unless of course it was awarded as damages to pay off the hefty fines etc you would incur.

This is not to say that those people who hacked accounts are not open to a shit load of legal ass kicking should they be caught.
Stealing an account using trojans etc is a criminal offense.

2) I specifically said I was basing everything I said off what the law is not how it should/ could/ might be in la la land.

3) The US government is not in the business of making RMTs stressed out or depressed so they can /wrist.

If anything the US government sole interest in this entire thing would be if those US RMT branches payed their taxes on time and properly.
If RMTs pay taxes then the US gov. would benefit from their continued business.
AND to those morons who will undoubtedly post "So the US government doesn't care about US citizens?!" or something along these lines the answer is the US government cares about people who pay their taxes and making sure people follow the law and pay their taxes, however the US government could give two shits about people who play FFXI.
Being a US citizen does not mean you get some kind of protection for playing a game or against the big bad RMT.

I would also like to see how a DA( District Attorney) would be able to keep his job if he tried to prosecute something along these lines because he played FFXI and hated RMTs. That DA would probably lose his job if not be disbarred for wasting public resources on something so stupid and trivial.
FFXI is trivial, RMT is trivial and stupid.
Tax dollars should not be wasted on combating RMT they should be spent on Health Care reform or ensuring Social securtiy will still be around in 50 years.

Now thats not to say that all of the records of a RMT company couldn't be audited to see if they payed taxes. But that doesn't go to the RMT issue that would fall under tax evasion and even if IGE went down for tax evasion it wouldn't hurt the RMT industry.

[*Shinzon*]

In regards to IGE:

TOS != Law
IGE isn't breaking any laws...they're just breaking rules.

You can ban for breaking rules...not sue.

They can do whatever they want. You pay for their service, RMT in particular are paying for this service to profit off it, not its designed intention. Secondly they are so adversely effecting the game that it can have potentially and detrimentally effect the way SE governs their service and can sue for damages caused by maintenance costs, repair costs, etc. Any type of monetary damage.

[fantasticdan]

I can't make a business using a pirated version of Photoshop, 3DSMax, or Borland C++, I can't even use a pirated font (like Helvetica). Hell, if I use a Pantone color, I even have to pay for the ability to use that.

Piracy isn't at all relevant to this discussion. If I use images created in photoshop (that I bought) for my business, can abode sue me because I made a profit using their software? No. If you were using pirated copies of commercial software to make money, than yeah that's a problem, but that's not at all similar to RMT in FFXI, I'm fairly certain they are not pirating the game.

Like the other guy said, terms of service != law. Yes SE can do whatever they want within their FFXI and POL, but their rules do not extend outside of their own services.

Secondly they are so adversely effecting the game that it can have potentially and detrimentally effect the way SE governs their service and can sue for damages caused by maintenance costs, repair costs, etc. Any type of monetary damage.

"Adversely effecting" someones video game experience is not a crime, neither is having a "detrimental" effect on a business when you are not breaking any laws.

[Nazrious]

fantasticdan

is right.

EDIT:

to be more clear while SE can sue and seek damages, the question is will they win?

you can sue for anything, does not mean you will win.

[Kyreth]

That's an angle.

Say I'm watching my cable television. (All legal, terms of service, etc- like I pay S-E for my game) , paying my $/month. Ah, single man, ESPN, life is good. (FFXI)

Suddenly, I find a third party is broadcasting all over my channels and the guys next door are stealing the cable box signal to boot (RMT). And there's a company paying them to do this and sell the replays for $$$ (IGE).

I'm pissed at the cable company if they don't stop it (S-E), but I'm -suing the shit out of the person paying to ruin my television- (IGE).

[fantasticdan]

That's an angle.

Say I'm watching my cable television. (All legal, terms of service, etc- like I pay S-E for my game) , paying my $/month. Ah, single man, ESPN, life is good. (FFXI)

Suddenly, I find a third party is broadcasting all over my channels and the guys next door are stealing the cable box signal to boot (RMT). And there's a company paying them to do this and sell the replays for $$$ (IGE).

I'm pissed at the cable company if they don't stop it (S-E), but I'm -suing the shit out of the person paying to ruin my television- (IGE).

Cable theft actually is a crime, selling a virtual service is not. Extensive use of inapt metaphors isn't going to bend the law for you. Also, you would have no grounds at all to sue anyone personally, as FFXI and everything within it including your character is property of SE. The only time you would have any legal ground to stand on is in the case of a stolen account if you construed it as identity theft.

Ultimately, it is SE's job to keep your game experience from sucking and govern their own service, not the police or the courts. If SE doesn't care or do a good job of it, well than tough luck. You have as much right to sue RMT for ruining your game experience as you do some guy that makes annoying shouts in whitegate, or the people that camp against you in aery, which is to say none.

[Kyreth]

Ah, but here's the deal. RMT did damage property- by inserting a keylogger into computers without knowledge or agreement of the owner, and used it to take information that was exclusively between them and Square-Enix, to perform actions that have resulted in loss of funds (by taking control of an account the user had paid for illegally).

The second RMT went from botting claims and fish to stealing control of accounts, they crossed a new line. Even if that line is "$12.95 + $1.00 per character". At the very minimum, that's about $33,000 (assuming each of those 2500 accounts had just one character) US dollars worth of money taken.

Individually, it's petty theft. Combined, it's an act of grand larceny at the least, and from the sheer number of accounts taken it's an organized action of some kind.

Not that S-E is in any way blameless, but it's the kind of blame you get for not having a better lock on your door, rather than the blame you give the hoodlum with a crowbar who popped the door and robbed your grandma's place.

S-E needs to get the accounts back to the proper owners (and checking who owned them -last- month ought to help there). Rollbacks are needed as well- hopefully, there's character data backups like the Return to Vana'diel system uses (anyone notice it's suspended?). Refunding the month's fees would be appreciated. And the security system needs to be fixed to never allow this easy a mass hijacking to ever happen again.

Guess S-E didn't think anyone would go this far for a game. Surprise!

[Khamsin]

I can't make a business using a pirated version of Photoshop, 3DSMax, or Borland C++, I can't even use a pirated font (like Helvetica). Hell, if I use a Pantone color, I even have to pay for the ability to use that.

Piracy isn't at all relevant to this discussion. If I use images created in photoshop (that I bought) for my business, can abode sue me because I made a profit using their software? No. If you were using pirated copies of commercial software to make money, than yeah that's a problem, but that's not at all similar to RMT in FFXI, I'm fairly certain they are not pirating the game.

It's not the piracy that was the point. It was that I'd have the software without making the appropriate commercial licensing agreement with Adobe/etc. If I had bought the software, then obviously I'd have the license to use it commercially, as well. If you want, we can use the example of a educational/personal license vs commercial license. Some software allows you to use things you create with it for personal use, but not for commercial use unless you pay for the license to do so.

Point is, there is a further step beyond just allowing you to use the software where they actually spell out that they are legally allowing you to use their product in a commercial venture. SE doesn't do this.

[*Shinzon*]

"Adversely effecting" someones video game experience is not a crime, neither is having a "detrimental" effect on a business when you are not breaking any laws.

True, to an extent. They are breaking the terms of service to which you are supposed to agree to. Leaving you therefore open to punishments within the proper realm. Adversely effecting one's gameplay, your correct is not something you can be sued for. However, DDoS attacks that caused server maintenance when they were prevalent, attacks on information that is deemed secure, which in certain cases is a crime and, you can be sued for. Even if its to a small claims court like the one in NYC, a person can sue for alot in terms of monetary damages and receive a certain amount. However, do to the fact that its an internet crime, it would be handled by a federal court assuming the case was given consideration.

Their security itself is not as bad as people are led to believe by stories of 'hacking' however, the customer service and support to address serious incidents are too poor to in most cases result in positive action.

[Niabius]

SE=Gil Sellars