A sad observation: RMT's are now fencing stolen goods.

[fantasticdan]

True, to an extent. They are breaking the terms of service to which you are supposed to agree to. Leaving you therefore open to punishments within the proper realm. Adversely effecting one's gameplay, your correct is not something you can be sued for. However, DDoS attacks that caused server maintenance when they were prevalent, attacks on information that is deemed secure, which in certain cases is a crime and, you can be sued for. Even if its to a small claims court like the one in NYC, a person can sue for alot in terms of monetary damages and receive a certain amount. However, do to the fact that its an internet crime, it would be handled by a federal court assuming the case was given consideration.

You're saying a group of RMT DDoSed SE? Do you have some kind of information to back that up? Because it makes zero sense...

[*Shinzon*]

Uh, that was no secret? Was probably sometime around last year, if not the year before where DDoS attacks caused login issues for hundreds of players.

[Gergall]

Uh, that was no secret? Was probably sometime around last year, if not the year before where DDoS attacks caused login issues for hundreds of players.

I remember that, but do we know it was RMT? I don't understand why RMT would want to crash their cash cow.

[fantasticdan]

Uh, that was no secret? Was probably sometime around last year, if not the year before where DDoS attacks caused login issues for hundreds of players.

No shit DDoS attacks happened, but why would RMT be behind them? RMT are not spawn of satan here to ruin FFXI, they are here to make money. Attacking/crashing servers from their point of view makes absolutely no sense.

[ronin sparthos]

Uh, that was no secret? Was probably sometime around last year, if not the year before where DDoS attacks caused login issues for hundreds of players.

No shit DDoS attacks happened, but why would RMT be behind them? RMT are not spawn of satan here to ruin FFXI, they are here to make money. Attacking/crashing servers from their point of view makes absolutely no sense.

I doubt it was RMT more it was someone taking out revenge on maybe being banned from the game. RMT though could have attacked the servers in a revenge tactic as well, though it has always felt like it was maybe an offshoot RMT group that was foiled making their 'last hurrah' on the game.

[Khamsin]

Didn't SE state the attacks were originating from China? Not that that matters, necessarily, since not all Chinese players are RMT. Could have been legit Chinese players behind the attacks.

[ronin sparthos]

Legit Chinese out for thrills, Legit Chinese pissed they got banned, RMT pissed they got banned, RMT that were giving up on XI and going out with a bang, RMT trying to gauge how strong SEs defenses were/are?

Those were the ideas i could pull up.

[fantasticdan]

Didn't SE state the attacks were originating from China? Not that that matters, necessarily, since not all Chinese players are RMT. Could have been legit Chinese players behind the attacks.

They didn't on POL, idk if they did in an interview or something thou. I can find alot of update notes/news on POL about the 2005 DDoS attacks, but none of them even mention china. In fact google search on the playonline.com domain returns zero results for the words china or chinese...

There are a lot of gaming news websites and forums that blame china, however none of them cite anything to back it up other than allakazham. It actually looks like the idea that they came from china stems from this alla thread thread, that suggests the DDoSes were a form of political protest from chinese students against japan over history textbooks... Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.

However according to pol, it seems they did attempt to take legal action back than anyway.

Currently we are unable to determine the precise source of attack. However, with the cooperation of ISP companies, our investigation continues to make progress. Law enforcement authorities in Japan, the United States, and Europe have been contacted for support.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnews/news4410.shtml

[Nazrious]

fantasticdan

all your post are well thought out and are in accord with what the law is. (Edited his to your for clarity)

Also to all those people who go on about ToS.

any agreement which you are forced to accept in order to use a product is innately flawed and subject to being thrown out in a court of law.

Companies do it as a measure of protection but just because some one agrees to the ToS of SE doesn't mean that the ToS WILL hold much if any weight in court.

Also consider that some players agreed to the ToS before the age of majority and even though they might still play after they are in the age of majority it could be argued this is because they had already invested a huge amount of time and effort into the game previously and to stop once they hit the age of majority because they did not agree with the ToS would have caused serious detrement to themselves.

Also if I used adobe or MS word etc and did not purchase their commercial license or w/e does not mean that the thing/ product which I developed using those tool would be controllable/ claimable by either company. the only way in which I see a problem is if that thing which you developed would still use adobe or MS word etc as an integral part of how it functions.

all of this still has nothing to do with RMT as once again like stated before RMT sell a service one which is totally separate from FFXI and yes while RMTs rely on MMOs to do their business the actions of a RMT would be better related to those of a used car salesmen.

While Ford or Honda might have their cars and all the legal things which go along with producing and running a car company they can't go and sue the used car salesman who follows all the laws he is supposed to.

Sure The car companies could claim that the salesman doesn't follow their 1 billion point inspection or that the service which the salesman provided is directly dependent upon the car companies producing cars. Hell the car companies can even claim that by the car salemen selling their used cars he is causing a detriment to their business, even if they don't sell used cars themselves they could argue something along the lines of "We have a certain level which we wish all of our cars to meet before they are sold or resold."

But the legal system does not care about this, in fact they would be wholly in support of the used car dealership.

Laws are there in a way to protect justice but also to foster business. In todays society it is the duty of the courts to find a reasonable balance.
this is not to say that some times justice isn't curtailed or even circumvented in the system. However at the end of the day the bigger picture must always be considered. So while, SOME, MMO players might scream bloody murder at what the RMTs are doing in a grand scale their business helps the economy, with out breaking any laws, and thus is seen as a positive and not a negative by the legal system.

[Khamsin]

However at the end of the day the bigger picture must always be considered. So while, SOME, MMO players might scream bloody murder at what the RMTs are doing in a grand scale their business helps the economy, with out breaking any laws, and thus is seen as a positive and not a negative by the legal system.

So how much do you suppose the gil farmers are being paid for their work? And if this was all such a positive, above-board business, why do they go through such roundabout ways to do business here?

As for being healthy for the economy, they're not even based in the US, they don't pay US taxes, they don't pay US workers, they probably don't even spend their money in the US, so from our perspective, the only thing the RMT companies are doing is draining money from our economy. Feel free to insert Japan, Australia, Europe, etc. in place of US.

I fail to see how it's healthy for any economy except for the personal economy of the gil brokers at IGE, seeing as how I doubt anybody but them are making any real living off it.

[fantasticdan]

As for being healthy for the economy, they're not even based in the US, they don't pay US taxes, they don't pay US workers, they probably don't even spend their money in the US, so from our perspective, the only thing the RMT companies are doing is draining money from our economy. Feel free to insert Japan, Australia, Europe, etc. in place of US.

This is a stupid line of discussion, but virtually all RMT transactions are done through paypal, which is a US based company. I'm not sure what kind of taxes paypal themselves pay, but the effect an RMT transaction would have on the US economy is the same as any other ebay/paypal transaction.

I fail to see how it's healthy for any economy except for the personal economy of the gil brokers at IGE, seeing as how I doubt anybody but them are making any real living off it.

RMT aren't just one giant mass of chinese people over at IGE, they are everywhere. There are dozens of gil/account selling websites, as well as forums solely dedicated to direct trade of money/gil/accounts. And even among the gil sold by the major websites, a portion of that is sold to them to be resold by smaller RMT groups and individuals.

The average adult income in china is something like $100 a month, I'm certain a sole person or a member of a small group of RMT, easily make far more than that, and can definitely make a living off of it. They would only need to farm a little over 2m per person per month to cover SE fees and earn an above average salary, going by current IGE prices.

Can't speak for those that work in the RMT "sweatshops", but from what I hear they still make above average by chinese standards.

[Khamsin]

As for being healthy for the economy, they're not even based in the US, they don't pay US taxes, they don't pay US workers, they probably don't even spend their money in the US, so from our perspective, the only thing the RMT companies are doing is draining money from our economy. Feel free to insert Japan, Australia, Europe, etc. in place of US.

This is a stupid line of discussion, but virtually all RMT transactions are done through paypal, which is a US based company. I'm not sure what kind of taxes paypal themselves pay, but the effect an RMT transaction would have on the US economy is the same as any other ebay/paypal transaction.

What's paypal have to do with anything? I don't think the simple fact of them using paypal all of a sudden makes it good for the economy. I don't know how paypal profits from their service, but I'm sure IGE's use of paypal contributes very little to the economy. The point is that a healthy economy has money flowing back and forth, between consumers and producer who themselves become consumers, etc. Someone pays me money, I spend that money, someone else gets the money, and it all comes back to me eventually. Why do you think there's import tariffs for various goods? Or restrictions on how much foreign steel or other resources we can use in construction? To promote our own economy, which doesn't happen if we buy everything from abroad.

A business that pays no taxes and pays no workers in your country, but markets primarily to your country, is detrimental to your economy, not helpful. Whether or not they use paypal is irrelevant, but if you want to count it, it's such a small kickback that its not even worth mentioning. The difference between RMT and "normal" paypal/ebay transactions is that those transactions are usually made between people within the same economic system, and not all funnelling money out of it in one direction.

[Evex]

As for being healthy for the economy, they're not even based in the US, they don't pay US taxes, they don't pay US workers, they probably don't even spend their money in the US, so from our perspective, the only thing the RMT companies are doing is draining money from our economy. Feel free to insert Japan, Australia, Europe, etc. in place of US.

This is a stupid line of discussion, but virtually all RMT transactions are done through paypal, which is a US based company. I'm not sure what kind of taxes paypal themselves pay, but the effect an RMT transaction would have on the US economy is the same as any other ebay/paypal transaction.

I'm pretty sure that what Khamsin meant about money flowing out of [insert country]'s economy is that gilbuyers are paying RMT (presumably from China) and those RMT are spending foreign-currency-exchanged-into-Yuan in China. At least with most transactions through Paypal, you receive some sort of physical property that you actually own, like a computer or a set of curtains. With RMT, you get pixels. Essentially, you are paying for nothing, seeing as how SE is the sole owner of anything and everything that is FFXI based. RMT are selling products that they don't have the property rights to; just think of it like your little brother stole your 10-page term paper and sold it to some idiot in your History class for $50. Money is flowing out of economies for something that isn't tangible and that neither the buyer or seller has the rights to. It isn't considered illegal to do so (yet) only because there is no set market value for trading virtual currency.

The average adult income in china is something like $100 a month, I'm certain a sole person or a member of a small group of RMT, easily make far more than that, and can definitely make a living off of it. They would only need to farm a little over 2m per person per month to cover SE fees and earn an above average salary, going by current IGE prices.

First off, it's pretty cheap to live in China compared to America, because their standards of living are pretty low (mainly because a majority of the population lives in the countryside, plowing what little arable land there is to be used). Secondly, IGE is a broker. What do brokers do? They are the middlemen who set up deals between the RMT and the idiot gilbuyers who gleefully fork over $$$. Middlemen take cuts of the fiscal transactions. Just because IGE or whatever broker charges $40 per 1 million gil, that doesn't mean the RMT gets anywhere near that much, and I'm going to esimate it's closer to <50%. I am in no way defending what the RMT do or what their reasons are, but I'm pretty sure that the brokers make a hell of a lot more money than the gilsellers do, so it only motivates the RMT to farm/steal/hack more to make more money for themselves.

What most people are seemingly failing to realize is that businesses frown upon a Third Party capitalizing off of their product, WITHOUT having authorization to do so, because the company is not getting a cut of the action. While it would be difficult for SE to prove in a court of law that IGE damaged their business (since technically all IGE is doing is being brokers), it's made even harder due to the fact that SE is based in Japan and IGE in Hong Kong (ugh, I can see the WW2 card already seeing as how Hong Kong is part of China again ;_; ).

The largest problem in this situation is that we are talking about an internet-based entertainment service and virtual products, and unfortunately, the law has not caught up to technology of "selling time." Virtual currency and accounts have been sold for around a decade already; this isn't a new problem. Honestly, I think the only way to curb gilselling is to have SE broker deals themselves, just like Sony Online Entertainment does for EverQuest II. It doesn't stop the issue of selling accounts and gil cheaper through RMT, as RMT would want to undercut the official deals.

I can't think of a case where a company sued the broker, but a SecondLife user sued the company for banning him after taking $300 for virtual property (to which the company supposedly sells the rights to). Subsequently, the two parties settled out of court, which is pretty bad for the MMO community as it could have been a huge milestone in virtual property rights. But it's a little progress in this field of how legal the ToS is in a courtroom, I suppose. If SE were ever to be able to sue gil brokers though, I'm pretty sure cases would boil down to semantics over the fact that they are only providing a service :\

[Nazrious]

You have to pay merchant fees through paypal and paypal themselves pay taxes.
paypal loves such transactions as RMT, it gives them a nice loophole in their liability disclaimer to work off.
something of note I found while looking through paypal's website.
Paypal does not get involved in any disputes over internet / non concrete purchases.

So a warning to Gil Buyers a RMT site could rob you of your money and laugh all the way to the bank and short of some reall fast and lucky work on your side you could be very much SOL. Something that hopefully will get those people who don't think twice about buying gil to at least fear it some way.

Buy anyways the RMT industry isnt as harsh as you people where made to believe just cus MTV or who ever it was did a story on RMT and you saw some RMT QQ over how crappy their jobs are don't get suckered in. on IGE the price per 1Mil of gill is over 50$ lets say IGE is buying their gil for $10 per 1mil an RMT could realistically make say 500k gil a day thats $10 for 2 days work. Which while not super omg sexy is a nice amount of money for a person in China. and sititng around playing FFXI beats working in retail as a salesperson or working in McDonalds.

But realistically IGE pays at least half of what they sell their gil for, if not more. So thats $25 per 1mil
And a person who knows what their doing and is using all the tools out their that a gil farmer could use, could easily make 2-3mil a day with 1-2 accounts thats a minimum of $50 a day for a person living in China or $50 dollars a day for a person in the US so in China you would be like a pimp and in the US you would be making above min. wage.

[fantasticdan]

What's paypal have to do with anything? I don't think the simple fact of them using paypal all of a sudden makes it good for the economy.

When did I say RMT was good for the US economy? Don't put words in my mouth. I was just pointing out that a certain percentage of the money, like 4-5% depending on the type of paypal account, is going to a US company on almost every RMT transaction.

A business that pays no taxes and pays no workers in your country, but markets primarily to your country, is detrimental to your economy, not helpful.

If you're that worried about the trade deficit, you should probably stop buying foreign products like FFXI. Yes SE has a US counterpart, yes it has US employees, but that doesn't mean more money isn't leaving than coming back in. I suppose you are in favor of NA -> NA RMT? Regardless, this has nothing to do with the legality of buying/selling virtual property.

First off, it's pretty cheap to live in China compared to America, because their standards of living are pretty low (mainly because a majority of the population lives in the countryside, plowing what little arable land there is to be used).

So what? If anything, that only helps to show that RMT is a pretty decent job in china, as opposed to back breaking physical labor where you probably make less money.

What most people are seemingly failing to realize is that businesses frown upon a Third Party capitalizing off of their product, WITHOUT having authorization to do so, because the company is not getting a cut of the action.

They don't need authorization to do so. I think what you fail to realize is that SE profits off of RMT, because they pay monthly fees and buy tons of content IDs as they are banned over and over(but not IP banned...). The only ones who really suffers from RMT are you, the regular players who don't buy/sell gil/accounts. SE certainly doesn't. You could try to argue that SE is losing players due to RMT making the game worse, but who do you know personally who quit for that reason? It can't possibly be more accounts than the ones RMT are paying to use, if any at all.

Just because IGE or whatever broker charges $40 per 1 million gil, that doesn't mean the RMT gets anywhere near that much, and I'm going to esimate it's closer to <50%.

IGE bought gil at somewhere around 70% of the price they sold it for last time I saw the page. The "sell" portion of their site isn't loading for me thou, so I can't check the current going rate. But, like I've said a million times, IGE is not the only means for RMT to sell their shit. There are many places for RMT to sell directly to customers, as well as countless other middle man websites.

Honestly, I think the only way to curb gilselling is to have SE broker deals themselves, just like Sony Online Entertainment does for EverQuest II.

Or you know, SE could stop basing their policies on keeping the RMT in the game. Why don't they ban IP addresses, instead of just accounts and credit cards? Why can you even connect to the game in china, when there is no chinese version of the game? Why is pol setup in a way that makes it possible and incredible easy to give away/steal/sell accounts? Either SE is completely fucking retarded, or they want to keep RMT in the game buying new content IDs and paying the monthly fees. Well, probably both...

Regardless, SE's shortcomings are not the fault of the US legal system. If you are dissatisfied with the FFXI service due to RMT, you should take it up with SE or cancel your account, not try to shift the blame somewhere else. Even if the US were to enact some type of anti-virtual goods sale law, it would be impossible to enforce, and could only punish people in the US anyway. It would be completely inapplicable to rmt selling to jp/europe/etc.

[Evex]

Wall-o-text warning :\

First off, it's pretty cheap to live in China compared to America, because their standards of living are pretty low.

So what? If anything, that only helps to show that RMT is a pretty decent job in china, as opposed to back breaking physical labor where you probably make less money.

I never said it wasn't a better way of making money compared to farming. I was just pointing out the fact that YOU mentioned the average income as though $100 is shockingly low. RMT are making a lot of money off intellectual property owned by another entity, but brokers make a lot since they're not actually doing any type of farming. It's a lucrative business because of lazy asses who can't make their own money, companies that haven't taken a legal stand, and the many ways of circumventing laws about dealing virtual goods that don't exist in the eyes of the court.

What most people are seemingly failing to realize is that businesses frown upon a Third Party capitalizing off of their product, WITHOUT having authorization to do so, because the company is not getting a cut of the action.

They don't need authorization to do so. I think what you fail to realize is that SE profits off of RMT, because they pay monthly fees and buy tons of content IDs as they are banned over and over(but not IP banned...). The only ones who really suffers from RMT are you, the regular players who don't buy/sell gil/accounts. SE certainly doesn't. You could try to argue that SE is losing players due to RMT making the game worse, but who do you know personally who quit for that reason? It can't possibly be more accounts than the ones RMT are paying to use, if any at all.

Since when did the ToS say it was ok to RMT SE's intellectual property? That's like saying it's perfectly ok to scalp some free concert tickets for $100. As far as the company policy goes, it's not allowed. Why? The company makes no money off of other people trading on their product in a way that the creators did not intend for it to be used. Pretty sure the game economy comes as a not-so-close second reason. RMTing is usually grounds for banning from the service, but legally, there has not been a precedent set on trading of virtual goods. I'm sure that SE makes a lot of money off RMT monthly fees/new games purchases when they get banned. In the dying moments of the game, 100% of the playerbase will probably be RMT trying to hack each other's characters to sell back to each other. And yes, I actually do know several players who quit during the RMT hayday in 2005.

Just because IGE or whatever broker charges $40 per 1 million gil, that doesn't mean the RMT gets anywhere near that much, and I'm going to esimate it's closer to <50%.

IGE bought gil at somewhere around 70% of the price they sold it for last time I saw the page. The "sell" portion of their site isn't loading for me thou, so I can't check the current going rate. But, like I've said a million times, IGE is not the only means for RMT to sell their shit. There are many places for RMT to sell directly to customers, as well as countless other middle man websites.

IGE was the only one I knew by name, of course there are other outlets for gilselling, including doing the deal yourself. That, however, is much more likely to get you caught if the buyer suddenly decides to report you for whatever reason. Hiding behind the broker is what shields both companies like IGE and the gilfarmers who are grieving the players. And assuming IGE is only making a 30% profit off each deal, that's 30% of all transactions where they did no work to actually make the gil. Buyers and sellers go to them. All a broker has to do is run a website to help clients get in touch with the sellers. What incentive would SE not have for taking that 30% back for themselves if Square was the one holding all the sold gil?

Honestly, I think the only way to curb gilselling is to have SE broker deals themselves, just like Sony Online Entertainment does for EverQuest II.

Or you know, SE could stop basing their policies on keeping the RMT in the game. Why don't they ban IP addresses, instead of just accounts and credit cards? Why can you even connect to the game in china, when there is no chinese version of the game? Why is pol setup in a way that makes it possible and incredible easy to give away/steal/sell accounts? Either SE is completely fucking retarded, or they want to keep RMT in the game buying new content IDs and paying the monthly fees. Well, probably both...

Regardless, SE's shortcomings are not the fault of the US legal system. If you are dissatisfied with the FFXI service due to RMT, you should take it up with SE or cancel your account, not try to shift the blame somewhere else.

Banning all IPs from China is kind of a political no-no from a Japanese company, not to mention SE could probably lose a lot of business in China on their non-FFXI games. People who want to (illegally) make money off someone else's product/property will find all different methods of doing so. While I do think SE was rather shortsighted in the security department, I don't really see how there could be no single way of hacking someone else's account.

Oh, I already did cancel my account because I'm fed up with their service. It was too little, too late for me (before you ask why I still care, it's not like this only happens in FFXI). While SE would benefit greatly from policy changes about hacked accounts, you're never going to stop people from trying to make a quick buck off a damn game if you don't regulate sales yourself and take some sort of legal standing on what you'd do to people who illegally sold your product. I keep mentioning this because if SE did manage bring a case of suing a broker to court, it would be a pretty monumental decision. A ruling for SE would mean that governments have to acknowledge the trading of non-tangible goods for real currency, which would lead somehow to making it taxable and regulated by some entity. A ruling for the broker would mean that RMTs are legally allowed keep selling their currency to brokers who would claim no liability for where the goods came from.

[Nazrious]

"A ruling for the broker would mean that RMTs are legally allowed keep selling their currency to brokers who would claim no liability for where the goods came from."

Actually a ruling for RMTs would be very beneficial for the players of MMOs. Got banned for no reason, like getting your account hacked, sue SE.
Your account suddenly gets messed up and that nice 4mil item you had, not saying this happenes much, is lost. Sue SE.

Yeah players would have a nice foothold to gaining a decent measure of control over their characters if RMTs had a ruling in support of them.

As far as a ruling for SE or RMT goes, not going to happen.

Virtual Goods = something legal systems around the world don't want to get into.

Look at all the work music companies and other thought content developers are going through to stop such things as torrenting, well the torrenting of pirated merchandise.

Things have been moving along in concerns to this very issue for years, and if a lower level judge did make a bone head move and rule for SE or for RMTs the higher level courts would either throw it out entirely or change the ruling to fit a different issue that wouldn't affect the rest of the cases going on.

again its an issue of a bigger picture and since a ruling either way would do little to help the cases of either side in the pro free trade of information camp or the pro copyright camp but bring another case to the mix to mess things up and confuse the legal system even more its better to just not deal with it.

and if you do a search on lexis or westlaw for "internet copyright" you will get a shit ton of cases pop up and a lot of them recent.

Also a ruling against RMTs would be a rulign against a lot of other companies who run off of the third party or middle man market, or even such people who don't make any profit.

Used Car salemen
Fansubbers
Blue Gartr

and a lot of other companies/ organizations who operate based off of another companies product.

Do you really think there would be that many public forums around if SE could sue a person for hosting a forum about their game?

Forums bash SE a lot, theres a nice amount of threads on here based solely on how much SE sucks because they did this or that.

[danoob]

Just imagine for a minute that SE DOES sue RMT, and the courts rule that the RMT have every right to sell the gil they farm and that SE can not ban/terminate their accounts just for farming gil.


Imagine the penalty SE would have to pay to RMT companies if the courts ruled that way.

[Evex]

Actually a ruling for RMTs would be very beneficial for the players of MMOs. Got banned for no reason, like getting your account hacked, sue SE.
Your account suddenly gets messed up and that nice 4mil item you had, not saying this happenes much, is lost. Sue SE.

SE wouldn't be accountable for the actions of Third Parties because it's up to you and only you to keep your account safe Not to mention the fact that if you did sue for the unfair loss of items, would it really be worth it to spend years of time and thousands of dollars for either party? That is, unless you have tons of money and time to spend and really want to drive your point home (which most people don't). Banning policy can be changed (highly doubtful in the near future though), and SE can give item restoration tickets (increasing the number of times you are allowed to do so would be great too). Unless you could somehow prove that SE griefed you and gave you no means of fighting back, you wouldn't have a case.

As far as a ruling for SE or RMT goes, not going to happen.

Virtual Goods = something legal systems around the world don't want to get into.

Did I really have to explicitly say in my post that trying to go to court on the issue of RMT is a really big risk and that would have huge ramifications? And that companies want to avoid this because it is a touchy issue if governments get involved?

Also a ruling against RMTs would be a rulign against a lot of other companies who run off of the third party or middle man market, or even such people who don't make any profit.

Used Car salemen
Fansubbers
Blue Gartr

There's a difference between third parties like Used Car salesmen, Fansubbers and fan forums/websites. People who sell their cars, assuming these people have pink slips, actually own the car. It is their personal property that they can sell, upgrade, throw out as they please. When you sell it to a used car lot, you are giving the property rights to them. If some punk stole your car and sold it, then obviously the deal was made illegally as that person isn't the holder of the pink slip.
I'm pretty sure Fansubbing is illegal in countries wherever that anime or w/e is licensed, as it treads on the rights of the company that paid for the use of said anime from the original creators, since it's considered distribution of copyrighted material. Forums like this one aren't selling time or some virtual product (even forums that charge for membership don't count, as you are paying to use a private service). Pretty sure the trading of information, as long as it is properly credited to the original person who came up with the idea, is free still. RMT are selling pixels that belong to SE. Nobody wants to touch this issue with a 50 foot pole, because it would open a huge can of worms in terms of ownership of non-physical property. Do you see the difference?

[Nazrious]

Nazrious wrote:
[quote:1tjx2xdl]Actually a ruling for RMTs would be very beneficial for the players of MMOs. Got banned for no reason, like getting your account hacked, sue SE.
Your account suddenly gets messed up and that nice 4mil item you had, not saying this happenes much, is lost. Sue SE.

SE wouldn't be accountable for the actions of Third Parties because it's up to you and only you to keep your account safe Not to mention the fact that if you did sue for the unfair loss of items, would it really be worth it to spend years of time and thousands of dollars for either party? That is, unless you have tons of money and time to spend and really want to drive your point home (which most people don't). Banning policy can be changed (highly doubtful in the near future though), and SE can give item restoration tickets (increasing the number of times you are allowed to do so would be great too). Unless you could somehow prove that SE griefed you and gave you no means of fighting back, you wouldn't have a case.

I was talking about those players who got hacked managed to get their accounts back then got banned right after.
Them gettign hacked might have been because of somethign they did or not, but SE banning them was 100% the reult of the poor way SE goes about account info verification etc.

Nazrious wrote:
As far as a ruling for SE or RMT goes, not going to happen.

Virtual Goods = something legal systems around the world don't want to get into.

Did I really have to explicitly say in my post that trying to go to court on the issue of RMT is a really big risk and that would have huge ramifications? And that companies want to avoid this because it is a touchy issue if governments get involved?[/quote:1tjx2xdl]

for someone trying to make a point by point argument yes.. you do, its the basics of debate so if Some one else comes along and spells it out don't whine about it.

Nazrious wrote:
Also a ruling against RMTs would be a rulign against a lot of other companies who run off of the third party or middle man market, or even such people who don't make any profit.

Used Car salemen
Fansubbers
Blue Gartr

There's a difference between third parties like Used Car salesmen, Fansubbers and fan forums/websites. People who sell their cars, assuming these people have pink slips, actually own the car. It is their personal property that they can sell, upgrade, throw out as they please. When you sell it to a used car lot, you are giving the property rights to them. If some punk stole your car and sold it, then obviously the deal was made illegally as that person isn't the holder of the pink slip.
I'm pretty sure Fansubbing is illegal in countries wherever that anime or w/e is licensed, as it treads on the rights of the company that paid for the use of said anime from the original creators, since it's considered distribution of copyrighted material. Forums like this one aren't selling time or some virtual product (even forums that charge for membership don't count, as you are paying to use a private service). Pretty sure the trading of information, as long as it is properly credited to the original person who came up with the idea, is free still. RMT are selling pixels that belong to SE. Nobody wants to touch this issue with a 50 foot pole, because it would open a huge can of worms in terms of ownership of non-physical property. Do you see the difference?

What most people are seemingly failing to realize is that businesses frown upon a Third Party capitalizing off of their product, WITHOUT having authorization to do so, because the company is not getting a cut of the action.

Actually u don't get the example. the car itself belongs to the person who bought it sure, but the perosn who bought it does not own the rights to the Nissan or ford or w/e logos etc. if you take a look in any car lot they used car dealership leave the badges on the cars they sell.
thus a Car company could sue them for "Selling their name" not because they sold the car, in the end its the badge that counts in this example.

actually you might have the valid point for fansubbing, but I was going more along the lines of a JP anime company suing US fansubbers.

in terms of what forums do and RMts there is no difference when it comes from use of anothers intellectual property for ones own purposes.

RMTS us it to sell the service of the time it takes them to farm gil / gold / adena etc
Forums us it to either make a profit, some do any way, or simply just use it for their own ends, as BG does.

RMTS DO NOT SELL PIXELS GOD DAMN IT!

RMTs sell a service they do not sell a tangible item, if RMTs went around trying to say they were selling gil and not the service of farming gil then SE might in a off chance be able to do something about, or at least have a lil more kindling for the fire.

again if you focus on small aspects especially if they have nothing to do with the issue you wont be able to see the forest for the trees.