Dual wielding and sea torques

[Wizerd]

Yea >.> I just hate swordchucks personally. I want a charm but have no time to camp and no money to spend on it when what I have works fine anyways. No doubt I'm just lazy and/or poor since Ares's Cuirass ;x

If you can't afford a chram, there is always this. Accuracy for both weapons and a little extra STR.

Or spectacles are nice

edit: have a question of my own. If a warrior has max sword merit and no axe merits (war isn't only job so merits from other jobs too, just saying this before someone says war should max axe and sword onry blah) that beefs up their sword from 250 to 268. And their axe is 269, with suppanomimi bumps up the 268 sword to 273 which is higher than axe. In this situation would it be better to perdu hanger + joy toy? Statistically perdu hanger has higher DPS and i'm not 100% sure for ws but isn't a 4 hit with 1.00 D better than 5 hit 0.50 D.(both have 30% str mod)

250 + 16 is 266, not 268. (though sword would still be higher)

[LinktheDeme]

Yea >.> I just hate swordchucks personally. I want a charm but have no time to camp and no money to spend on it when what I have works fine anyways. No doubt I'm just lazy and/or poor since Ares's Cuirass ;x

If you can't afford a chram, there is always this. Accuracy for both weapons and a little extra STR.

Or spectacles are nice

edit: have a question of my own. If a warrior has max sword merit and no axe merits (war isn't only job so merits from other jobs too, just saying this before someone says war should max axe and sword onry blah) that beefs up their sword from 250 to 268. And their axe is 269, with suppanomimi bumps up the 268 sword to 273 which is higher than axe. In this situation would it be better to perdu hanger + joy toy? Statistically perdu hanger has higher DPS and i'm not 100% sure for ws but isn't a 4 hit with 1.00 D better than 5 hit 0.50 D.(both have 30% str mod)

250 + 16 is 266, not 268. (though sword would still be higher)

Yea sword still higher it's like 6 am sorry for bad math skillz

[Theodoric]

When dual wielding two diff weapons PCC onry

This is correct sir.

Wood/Man/Jugg/Whatever, Temp Torque

Rid/Joy/Company/Whatever, Fort Torque

Only time Dual Wielding+Axe+Fort should apply is when SE gives Warrior Monkey Grip, so I can dual wield pairs out of my Byakko's/Rampager/Fortitude/Mbhuj/Choppah collection, and say "Holy shit, I'm dualwielding great axes with a fortitude torque, this must be how Jesus feels."

Ok...now that's I'm done pissin myself laughing. Love the idea, but even upgrading 2H weapons SE gimped... Jerks.

CLEARLY the solution is to gear swap from the temperance torque to the fort torque between swings, then back to temperance again during delay cooldown

Please don't confuse the new guys with advanced tactics like /equip macros.

[Anakron]

If a warrior has max sword merit and no axe merits (war isn't only job so merits from other jobs too, just saying this before someone says war should max axe and sword onry blah) that beefs up their sword from 250 to 268. And their axe is 269, with suppanomimi bumps up the 268 sword to 273 which is higher than axe. In this situation would it be better to perdu hanger + joy toy? Statistically perdu hanger has higher DPS and i'm not 100% sure for ws but isn't a 4 hit with 1.00 D better than 5 hit 0.50 D.(both have 30% str mod)

I believe the 0.50 modifier on Rampage (and all other multi-hit WSs) only applies to the first hit, so it's really 4.00 vs 4.50 (both +1.00 from DW).

[Damonkel]

Didnt see a ansewer to this yet but he brings up a good point. I have 4 gaxe 8 sword and 8 h2h merits so no room for axe. Would I be better off using perdu/joy then man/joy full time? I have gaxe merits for my Fort axe cant say I love the ws's there not so hot but the dot is insane. Mostly just want a option when I run low on stones or just want to swordchuck it.

Notable information
19% haste
suppa/brutal
merits 5 berserk 5 double attack

based merits around fort axe/perdu voulge

[Phraust]

Gonna get reamed at some point for even responding to this thread somewhere, But here goes, personally I use a Perdu/Ridill combo, the speed the Perdu has coupled with the attack/accuracy on latent really makes this weapon combo shine. Sure you are using a 4 hit WS, but you are using said weaponskill quite a bit more often too, and with a negligible hit on your Base Damage. Someone said thier sword caps at 268 somewhere? Maybe I read the post wrong, but I cap at 271 w/out Fortitude, 8/8 sword, suppa.

Another question that's been in debate was the "Like weapon inclusion" on multi-hit WS. I.E. if you use 2x axe your rampages include yoru offhand, if you use 2x swords your Vorpals include your offhand, and if you use a Axe/Sword, your Rampages exclude your offhand. I.E. Rampage Axe/Ridill are a 5-hit 0.50 mod, 30%Str, and Vorpal Perdu/Ridill combo is supposedly a 5 hit 1.0 mod, 30%Str, while an Axe/Axe would technically be a 6-hit 0.50 mod, 30%Str.

From my own testing, this seems to be true, Vorps tend to be pretty close to rampages in Damage. To note I am 271/271 skill on Axe/Sword. And Axe/Axe wars typical do top me out damage wise about 20% roughly(seemingly 1 more hit) on WS either way (usually fully Axe Merited). Though I parse significantly higher than them overall, more WS, and better Dot.

[Ferien]

Another question that's been in debate was the "Like weapon inclusion" on multi-hit WS. I.E. if you use 2x axe your rampages include yoru offhand, if you use 2x swords your Vorpals include your offhand, and if you use a Axe/Sword, your Rampages exclude your offhand. I.E. Rampage Axe/Ridill are a 5-hit 0.50 mod, 30%Str, and Vorpal Perdu/Ridill combo is supposedly a 5 hit 1.0 mod, 30%Str, while an Axe/Axe would technically be a 6-hit 0.50 mod, 30%Str.

This is not true. Your offhand is included in the ws, whether it's an Axe, a Sword, or a Club. Just look at the TP gain afterwards.

[Phraust]

Another question that's been in debate was the "Like weapon inclusion" on multi-hit WS. I.E. if you use 2x axe your rampages include yoru offhand, if you use 2x swords your Vorpals include your offhand, and if you use a Axe/Sword, your Rampages exclude your offhand. I.E. Rampage Axe/Ridill are a 5-hit 0.50 mod, 30%Str, and Vorpal Perdu/Ridill combo is supposedly a 5 hit 1.0 mod, 30%Str, while an Axe/Axe would technically be a 6-hit 0.50 mod, 30%Str.

This is not true. Your offhand is included in the ws, whether it's an Axe, a Sword, or a Club. Just look at the TP gain afterwards.

Included as an attack would = The TP return, correct, but included in the WS would mean the offhand hit was modded as well, which seems to coincide with the observations of me and a few others on our server experimenting with this. It's like if you had a 5 hit rampage with Axe/Ridill for 1,000 and a 5 hit vorpal with Perdu/Ridill for 1,000, or a 6 hit Rampage for 1,200. If the offhand was being included as either a regular hit I.E. 40-80 damage, or a modded hit I.E. ~200 damage? Argument being that the maybe it does include the offhand, but can't mod it due to a dissimilar weapon, Rampage is an Axe WS, and the mod can't continue to a sword, making the oposite tru. So maybe Ramapage offhanding ridill is infact including the ridill hit, but as an unmodded hit? like 5 Rampage hits at ~200ea. roughly and 1 for about 75?

[Ferien]

Another question that's been in debate was the "Like weapon inclusion" on multi-hit WS. I.E. if you use 2x axe your rampages include yoru offhand, if you use 2x swords your Vorpals include your offhand, and if you use a Axe/Sword, your Rampages exclude your offhand. I.E. Rampage Axe/Ridill are a 5-hit 0.50 mod, 30%Str, and Vorpal Perdu/Ridill combo is supposedly a 5 hit 1.0 mod, 30%Str, while an Axe/Axe would technically be a 6-hit 0.50 mod, 30%Str.

This is not true. Your offhand is included in the ws, whether it's an Axe, a Sword, or a Club. Just look at the TP gain afterwards.

Included as an attack would = The TP return, correct, but included in the WS would mean the offhand hit was modded as well, which seems to coincide with the observations of me and a few others on our server experimenting with this. It's like if you had a 5 hit rampage with Axe/Ridill for 1,000 and a 5 hit vorpal with Perdu/Ridill for 1,000, or a 6 hit Rampage for 1,200. If the offhand was being included as either a regular hit I.E. 40-80 damage, or a modded hit I.E. ~200 damage? Argument being that the maybe it does include the offhand, but can't mod it due to a dissimilar weapon, Rampage is an Axe WS, and the mod can't continue to a sword, making the oposite tru. So maybe Ramapage offhanding ridill is infact including the ridill hit, but as an unmodded hit? like 5 Rampage hits at ~200ea. roughly and 1 for about 75?

Except we also know that the mods only apply to the first hit of a ws, and all other hits are 1.

[Phraust]

Then why the discrepancy?

Go try it out, Rampage with axe/axe, vorp with sword/sword, then rampage with axe/sword, and vorp with sword/axe. All my testign was done on the fly and not saved, but iirc, the numbers were all pretty different, and noticably so.

[aurik]

Then why the discrepancy?

Go try it out, Rampage with axe/axe, vorp with sword/sword, then rampage with axe/sword, and vorp with sword/axe. All my testign was done on the fly and not saved, but iirc, the numbers were all pretty different, and noticably so.

So basically, you just eyeballed the "numbers" and came to this conclusion.

[Phraust]

Naw, it was all parsed, admittedly informally.

Tried in 3 different camps, Birds, Trolls and North Camp Mamool, changing through different weapon sets (sans the sword/axe vorpal blade combo).

From what I saw:

Damage of weaponskills (this is from memory mind you):
Rampage with Axe/Axe ~840 > Rampage Axe/Sword ~700 > Vorpal Blade Sword/Sword ~680.

However Frequency played a bigger role in overall damage:

# of Weaponskills:
Sword/Sword > Axe/Sword > Axe/Axe

Unless I'm completely oblivious how the multi hits are calculated (which may verywell be true), I'd say the original observations are kinda pointign in the direction of an included hit.

The reason I even tested this shit was because I was on the shitter one day and did the math for Perdu Vs. Maneater, and wondered if the Delay reduction was worth the loss of a hit on Weaponskills. When I actually tested it, I was extremely shocked when I saw that the combo's Weaponskills were almost the same, but very much more frequent. The drop in delay is 10% I think if I remember correctly between Maneater to Perdu Hanger (12% down from Jugg). So it ended up being faster melee, more WS's, and free'd up Axe merits to be spent on somethign else.

[Niiro]

Then why the discrepancy?

Go try it out, Rampage with axe/axe, vorp with sword/sword, then rampage with axe/sword, and vorp with sword/axe. All my testign was done on the fly and not saved, but iirc, the numbers were all pretty different, and noticably so.

So basically, you just eyeballed the "numbers" and came to this conclusion.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4690/scienceys1.jpg
Shamelessly stolen from the random pic thread.

[Vyloan]

Axe/Axe - Temp.
Sword/Sword - Fortitude.
Axe/Sword - Peacock Charm.

I shit you not. Add some merits and it just makes the above even better.

[Damonkel]

So the general consensus is that Perdu/Joy should be about the same as man/joy with the correct merits and gear? Thanks for the help trying to build a solid war with the options I have and keep gaxe and dual wield open at all times and I didnt want to kill h2h or Gaxe for axe merits tbh I like mnk and pup better then war and war never gets used endgame for me its always blm rdm or blu.

[Phraust]

So the general consensus is that Perdu/Joy should be about the same as man/joy with the correct merits and gear? Thanks for the help trying to build a solid war with the options I have and keep gaxe and dual wield open at all times and I didnt want to kill h2h or Gaxe for axe merits tbh I like mnk and pup better then war and war never gets used endgame for me its always blm rdm or blu.

Perhaps, but Man/joy versus Man/Woodville's was also tested on our server, on a fully merited (Sword & Axe both 8/8), E.body, etc war, and found that the Axe/Axe war parsed a bit higher than the Axe/Joy settup. But you're looking at a significant decrease in overall delay between an Axe/Joy to Perdu/Joy, so you are looking at a definate increase over Man/Joy, and I would easly assume Perdu/Joy could outdo Axe/Axe as well.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

From what I saw:

Damage of weaponskills (this is from memory mind you):
Axe/Sword ~700 > Vorpal Blade Sword/Sword ~680.

Actually, the difference between them is much wider, more along the lines of 900'ish (Axe/Ridill) versus 750~ (Swordx2) with 2x minuet.

They're definately not far from each other but not that close either, I could average around 780 with Rampage buffless even at MMJ SP North whereas pushing Vorpal that high wouldn't be an easy task even with 2x Minuet and Chaos Roll.

Don't get me wrong though, swords (specifically, Rid/Joy) would still triumph if properly supported by a thoughtfully designed merit set-up and decent gear, as far as overall damage goes (both combos are pretty close in ideal conditions until you factor in mobs weak to piercing damage).