SAM Gear

[Ikith]

I'm looking for a guide to what I gear I should have at what level... As a reference mostly. Anyone got links?

[Vigilia]

Not level-by-level as such but has cap gear setup suggestions from lvl 20 onwards.
http://ffxi.killvoid.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=148421

There's a ton of related threads on KI as well. Search ftw.

[Amele]

I'm looking for a guide to what I gear I should have at what level... As a reference mostly. Anyone got links?

there's some ongoing discussion as to what level(s) haste is worth worrying about but in general the 'major' pieces go something like below (fill in with misc. combat stats as possible. str/dex/att/acc etc.) this isn't a full guide, just a crib sheet; ex items listed in italics, critical items in bold. I'm not necessarily recommending all listed upgrades - just giving an idea of what levels you would use them if you had them.

by level 10:
bounding boots/leaping boots
legionnaire's mittens/royal footman gloves

by level 25:
brave belt
beetle earrings+1
spike necklace
empress hairpin/emperor hairpin
republic subligar
fed. kyahan
fed. tekko / kingdom gloves / republic mittens

by level 37:
(consider RSE)
rajas ring
peacock amulet/peacock charm
horomusha / ochiudo's / ochimusha kotes
venerer ring / jaeger ring
puissance rings

by level 40:
fuma kyahan / sarutobi kyahan
jujitsu gi
sniper's / woodsman / jaeger
tilt belt

by level 50:
life belt / sword belt+1 / swift belt (consider RSE waist)
voyager sallet / walkure / valkyrie's mask
luisant haubert
auditory torque
jaguar mantle
heim's earring / storm loop
shinimusha haidate (if no rajas)
ulthalum's ring

by level 60:
Myochin Kabuto
victory ring
royal knight's breeches
royal army mantle
spike earrings (consider RSE earrings)
speed / velocious belt
jaridah peti (55) / scorpion harness (57) / Haubergeon(59)
toreador's ring
sipahi turban
chivalrous chain (if no PCC/PCA)
pallas's bracelets
potent belt
lightning bow +1 / tiphia sting

pre-75
optical hat
amemet+1
(consider RSE shoes)
arhat's body/head (for ohshit swap)
merman's earrings
dusk gloves
fuma kyahan
bushinomimi
saotome kote
bandomusha kote
alkyoneus's bracelets

75/endgame

at this point you should have a pretty good idea of what's good for sam, critical pieces are haste in leg slot (b.haidate / usukane hizarayoi) haste in head slot (ace's / askar / w.turban) and enough store TP gear for a six hit setup. then fill in your strength swaps for ws (+5 available in almost every slot.)

[Mosh]

Until 70:
Melee:
Acc/Att. You want enough accuracy to hit the mob, but you don't want to go overboard. Fill the rest of the slots with STR and DEX.

WS:
Keep some acc in, then fill the rest with STR. If using SA WS, don't use the acc stuff.


71-74:
Melee:
Enough Store-TP to keep a 6 hit setup*. For a 450 delay weapon, you need +21. That would be Hachiman Body, Hands, Legs, Feet. Unless you have Rajas, then you can ditch the Domaruuuuuuu.

WS:
Keep your Store-TP items in to keep your 6hit setup, keep some acc in, then fill the rest with STR. If using SA WS, don't use the acc stuff.


75:
The 71-74 rule still applies here until you cap StoreTP merits. With capped StoreTP merits you will still need +11 StoreTP to maintain a 6hit setup with a 450 delay weapon. You'd swap the old StoreTP items in favor of acc/att/haste depending on the mob and camp.

*71 SAM currently and I ditch the 6 hit setup on Imps. Getting 100 TP in 6 hits means nothing if you are sitting on over 100% due to Amnesia.

[Amele]

I disagree with six hit setup pre 75; personally, I'd rather have 6% more haste, more acc and more attack. going from 7 hits to 6 is potentially a boost of 15% on weaponskill rate, but a 6% haste + 5% hit rate boost (at 19% haste and 80% accuracy) is going to be in the area of 14% more -everything-.

I don't even think it's close, honestly.

at 75 it makes more sense because you give up a lot less comparatively.

[Darkwill]

6-Hit works better at 75 but if you can do one pre-75 with a good acc %, I don't see why not.

[Mosh]

My setup at 71 assuming 6hit:

TP:
Kaziridachi
Pole Strap (gonna ditch for something else, been using it on PLD all day for GSword skill ups and haven't DA'd once)
Tiphia (Bow if I need to pull)
Ohat
PCC
Spike Earring x2 (yeah yeah merman..)
Haub
Hachiman Hands
Woodsman
Rajas
Amemet+1
Life Belt
Hachiman Legs
Hachiman Feet

WS:
Sipahi Turban
Spike Necklace (sometimes)
Nothing else changes to keep 6 hit setup in. PCC and life belt stay in cause my WS acc fails sometimes. Need to get a Fowling Earring I guess.

At 75 I'll replace Store TP pieces with others (Hachi Legs -> Haidate, Hachi Hands -> Dusk). The Hachi Feet will have to stay for 6hit though. Amir would be nice once I get it. (I'll have +11 with Brutal, Rajas, and Hachi Feet)

[Darkwill]

My setup at 71 assuming 6hit:

TP:
Kaziridachi
Pole Strap (gonna ditch for something else, been using it on PLD all day for GSword skill ups and haven't DA'd once)
Tiphia (Bow if I need to pull)
Ohat
PCC
Spike Earring x2 (yeah yeah merman..)
Haub
Hachiman Hands
Woodsman
Rajas
Amemet+1
Life Belt
Hachiman Legs
Hachiman Feet

WS:
Sipahi Turban
Spike Necklace (sometimes)
Nothing else changes to keep 6 hit setup in. PCC and life belt stay in cause my WS acc fails sometimes. Need to get a Fowling Earring I guess.

At 75 I'll replace Store TP pieces with others (Hachi Legs -> Haidate, Hachi Hands -> Dusk). The Hachi Feet will have to stay for 6hit though. Amir would be nice once I get it. (I'll have +11 with Brutal, Rajas, and Hachi Feet)

Pole Strap is still the best option for Sam.

[Jeryhn]

Buy a domaru and wear it forever.

[Amele]

6-Hit works better at 75 but if you can do one pre-75 with a good acc %, I don't see why not.

I just demonstrated why not...


ok, let's do more complete numbers.

test: six hits vs. 14 acc and 6% haste.
premise: 3 hachiman pieces vs. haub(nq), dusk(nq), fuma sune-ate
with good acc (85%)
and the most favorable setup for maximizing dot: soboro - so 50% of your damage is from weaponskills (assumes double attack rate of 1.9 from soboro.)

7 hits vs 6 hits: at 19% haste (haste spell + swift belt) and 85% accuracy it's a mean time to weaponskill of 26.3 seconds vs. 22.6 seconds. this is a weaponskill rate increase of 14.3%. this will add ~7.15% dot. (50% times 14.3%)

14 acc will put us at .92 accuracy, and 6% haste will put us at 25% total haste.
this increases our mean hit rate from 3.76 seconds per hit to 3.22 seconds per hit. this is a dot increase of ~14.4% (faster hits = faster weaponskills at a 1:1 ratio)

it's not even close.


at lower accuracy or higher haste it gets even more obvious, at higher accuracy you should eat meat anyway but even just the -haste- speed up is 7.4% so at capped accuracy I'd still give the edge to haste+haub

==
as far as grips: pole strap is a good option (possibly best option) for non-soboro builds. soboro gets nothing out of pole strap so a different strap should be used. - using hagun, pole is a good choice. other good choices include claymore, axe, and platinum+1. sword strap is also a possibility from 70-75 (with a rajas you'll maintain the seven hit build but gain 3% dot) but you would want to swap it out after you move to a six hit build at 75.

[Tyr]

Apologies for the necro, but I decided to do so instead of posting a new thread on a very frequent topic in light of the replies in this post. I'm hoping this post isn't too long-winded, and helps someone out there. Anyone can do this math/looking up stuff, I just think it beneficial to have it in one place for future references/searches.

Section 1
Obtaining The Most Haste with a 6-Hit Build*1

What You Need:
Walahra Turban (Haste+5%)
Askar Korazin (Store TP +5)*2
Dusk Gloves +1 (Haste +4%)
Speed/Velocious Belt (Haste +6%)*3
Byakko's Haidate (Haste+5%)
Fuma Sune-ate (Haste+3%)
Rajas Ring (Store TP +5)
Brutal Earring (Store TP +1)
Capped Store TP Merits
(This also is only for a weapon which has a delay of 442-499)*4



Summary:
Haste +23 (22.56%)
Equipment STP +11
Merit STP +10

Using a Hagun, a Samurai with this setup has a total delay of 348.49 (5.8 Seconds) as well as the desired 6-hit build (16.7 TP/hit)
With Hasso: Total Delay = 303.66 (5.1 Seconds)
&With Haste: Total Delay = 237.74 (4.0 Seconds)
&With March I: Total Delay = 195.56 (3.3 Seconds)
&With March II: Total Delay = 153.37 (2.6 Seconds)
&Soul Voice: Total Delay = 106.79 (1.8 Seconds)


*1: Note that I am specifically talking about a setup which incorporates the most efficient usage of Haste+ and Store TP+. Obviously, those who have Ace's Helm prefer to use it over Walahra Turban, but given that Ace's provides no STP+, the Haste+1% Walahra Turban has over Ace's is enough to put that in the the preceding list.
*2: I would like to reiterate this point: I am maximizing Haste+STP over anything else -- but obviously, there is a filter in that, for instance, I'm not suggesting Atilla's Earring or Bushido's Cape over Brutal Earring. For a Samurai with capped STP Merits, it is only necessary to attain +11 STP to achieve a 6-hit build.
*3: Ninurta's Sash also here, but...yea.
*4: Let's consider the standard GKT, Hagun (450 Delay)



Section 2
Obtaining A Practical 6-Hit Build With Haste

What You Need:
Walahra Turban (Haste+5%)
Askar Korazin (Store TP +5)
Dusk Gloves (Haste +3%)
Swift Belt (Haste +4%)
Byakko's Haidate (Haste+5%)
Fuma Sune-ate (Haste+3%)
Rajas Ring (Store TP +5)
Brutal Earring (Store TP +1)
Capped Store TP Merits


Summary:
Using a Hagun, a Samurai with this setup has a total delay of 362.11 (6.0 Seconds) as well as the desired 6-hit build (16.7 TP/hit)
With Hasso: Total Delay = 318.29 (5.3 Seconds)
&With Haste: Total Delay = 251.37 (4.2 Seconds)
&With March I: Total Delay = 209.18 (3.5 Seconds)
&With March II: Total Delay = 166.99 (2.8 Seconds)
&Soul Voice: Total Delay = 120.41 (2.0 Seconds)



Comparison of Section 1 & 2

The setup in section 1 differs from that in 2 in:
+3% Haste
+6 Attack (+1 from hands, +5 from belt)
-3 Accuracy (-3 from Belt)


The 3% haste translates, as it seems across the board, to a difference of 0.2 seconds in total delay. The difference between optimal and practical is approximately 18-48m for 0.2 seconds. While I am of the school that believes that 0.2 seconds is all the difference, it does seem to be a slightly excessive amount if these are the correct figures (in terms of total delay). Also, keep in mind that 0.2 seconds is total delay -- it would take 1.2 seconds faster using setup 1 to get to 100%+ TP than using setup 2.



Addendum
To reiterate a previous point, this post regards Haste & Store TP as opposed to other stats. There are namely 3 gear-switches I would make when considering all things:

1) Haubergeon +1 over Askar Korazin
Hauber+1 over Askar simply because I believe Hauber+1 to be the best body piece for Samurai.

2) Ace's Helm over Walahra Turban
Ace's Helm over Walahra Turban because I think the -1% Haste difference is more than made up with Accuracy +7, STR+4, and DEF:28

3) Usukane Sune-ate over Fuma Sune-ate
Usukane over Fuma because I think the -1% Haste difference is more than made up with Accuracy +7, Attack +7, and MOST importantly, STP+7 which again puts you in a 6-hit build.

Lastly, here is where that 18-48m comes into play (difference between using Dusk Gloves +1 & Speed Belt v. Dusk Gloves & Swift Belt). In that ideal setup, using Ace's Helm and Usukane Sune-ate will put you -2% Haste apart from the maximum Haste a Samurai can receive. You make up for it with the rare items by balancing that out. So it becomes a matter of (now considering Haste, STP, Attack, Accuracy, STR, DEX):

Dusk Gloves +1 = Attack +6 / Haste +4%
Speed Belt = Haste +6%
Usukane Sune-ate = Accuracy +7 / Attack +7 / Store TP +7 / Haste +2%
Ace's Helm = STR+4 / Accuracy +7 / Haste +4%
Haubergeon +1 = STR+6 / DEX+6 / Accuracy +12 / Attack +12
((TOTAL: STR+10 / DEX+6 / Accuracy +26 / Attack +25 / Store TP +7 / Haste +16))

v.

Dusk Gloves = Attack +5 / Haste +3%
Swift Belt = Accuracy +3 / Attack -5 / Haste +4%
Fuma Sune-Ate = Haste +3%
Walahra Turban = Haste +5%
Askar Korazin = STR+5 / Attack +12 / Store TP +5 (Also Double Attack +2%)
((TOTAL: STR+5 / Accuracy +3 / Attack +12 / Store TP +5 / Haste +15))

Difference (Optimal - Practical) = STR+5 / DEX+6 / Accuracy +23 / Attack +13 / Store TP +2 / Haste +1

In my opinion, that's a spicy meatball, and THEN, that becomes 18-48m worth investing in (18 being only for Dusk+1, +30 for Speed Belt or what have you)



The difference between Setup1 (Section 1 | Max Haste/STP) and what I consider Optimal (Ace's, Usukane Feet, Hauber+1) is simple. For sake of brevity, you are basically trading the 2% Haste from Turban and Fumas for the ability to use Hauber+1 on top of STR+4, +14 Accuracy and +7 attack.


Again, the gear I listed are first filtered by what is considered acceptable by contemporary standards among Samurai, and then what I would undoubtedly use. The biggest thing I left out here was Usukane Hizayoroi v. Byakko's Haidate, but for now, I would definitely choose Haidate.



Section 3
Hachiman Gear & Pre-75

What is of concern here are lv 70-74 Samurai. I personally think almost the entirety of Hachiman gear is crap. The boots are the only completely worthwhile piece, mainly because a) no latent effect which is >= 100% TP, and b) Samurai do not have many options for feet. It can actually be more of an examination of lv 70 & 72, because that's really where two unique armors come into play--Hachiman & Dusk Gloves.

There are a few options to consider:
1) Obtaining the best haste gear pre-75
2) Obtaining practical haste gear pre-75
3) Obtaining a 6-hit build
4) Comparison & Conclusion


Best Haste Gear Pre-75
I want to stress that we're talking about the front-end of the 70's...yes, Ace's Helm is available at 75, but you're already so close I don't really care to consider it...Plus the fact that I haven't seen a non-75 SAM wear an Ace's Helm.

Dusk Gloves +1 - 4% Haste
Speed Belt - 6% Haste
Fuma - 3% Haste

Pre-75, you're missing out on 10% Haste from Haidate/Turban combo, or something close mixing and matching other haste gears which become available. So, the maximum haste (with two qualifiers: pre-74 and using a normal setup, not latent effect items) is 13%.


Practical Haste Gear Pre-75
Simple:

Dusk Gloves - 3% Haste
Swift Belt - 4% Haste
Fuma - 3% Haste

Total: 10% Haste

6-Hit Build Pre-75

There are a few paths, but let's filter them:
1) No Shinimusha Gear
2) No Hachiman Hakama
3) Minimize Usage of Hachiman Gear
5) Rajas & Chivalrous obtained

Here is where it gets a little tricky, because while I insist on following #3, it seems as though you have to use 2 pieces of Hachiman for a 6-hit build. While we're only considering 3 pieces of Hachiman gear -- body, hands, feet (head doesn't have STP+, legs = refer to filter#2), I personally place a priority on them.

At 70: Kote +1 = Domaru +1 > Kote = Domaru > Sune-ate +1 > Sune-ate
-If you wish to build a 6-hit set-up pre-75, you need one piece of HQ-Hachiman. Kote+1 at 70 takes precedence because there is no Haste+ gear that can be used in its place. It will often replace Attack+ Kotes. While it hurts to have to give those up for Hachiman gear, it's worthwhile given that if you were to use Domaru +1, you'd be giving up Haubergeon (regardless of NQ or HQ). Sune-ate +1, while I think it is the best all-around Hachiman piece, and the only HQ I'd personally buy, takes last in this examination simply because it would replace a Haste+ gear, which is something we're trying to avoid.
*Edit: I changed the priority of Kote+1 / Domaru+1 to "=" instead of ">" because of what I mention at 72.

At 72: Domaru +1 > Domaru = Kote +1 > Kote > Sune-ate +1 > Sune-ate
-Domaru/+1 now is clearly the better piece, as it will not replace any haste gear. Here's where it gets tricky. It's not only necessary to have one piece of Hachiman HQ gear for a 6-hit build, you -cannot- have the two combinations be Sune-ate & Domaru, regardless of NQ or HQ. In other words, you have to use Hachiman Kote to obtain a 6-hit build pre-74. The only exceptions occur when using an item like Attilla's Earring (dud...), Omokage GK (lv60 GKT), or some other useless piece which is not worth even mentioning.

At 75: Get rid of all that shit.

Again, you have to use one piece of HQ Hachiman to obtain a 6-hit build. It seems as though if you are hellbent on doing so, you should invest in Domaru +1, as it will last until 75. This is for TP-use only.


Comparison & Conclusion
Rarely, if ever, will you be using a GKT that doesn't have 450 delay. HQ-crafted Katanas have a delay of 437 (also, Amanomurakumo), which is -.6 TP/hit, and Katanas with a delay of 420 have -1.0 TP/hit. So even if you had one available, it's not a smart decision at all.

At 70, if you have the resources available, you can obtain a setup with both haste & 6-hit:
450 Delay GKT
Hachiman Domaru +1
Hachiman Kote
Swift Belt / Speed Belt
Fuma Kyahan
Rajas Ring
Chivalrous Chain

I put Hachiman Domaru +1 because it is a bit more worthwhile, but again, you are foregoing Haubergeon to use it and instead using Fuma boots for Haste+
You can use either a combination of Domaru+1/Kote, Domaru/Kote+1, or Kote+1/Sune-ate+1. I figure you might as well lessen the damage, however minimal, of not being able to use Hauber. If you're made of money and hellbent on 6-hit, purchase Kote+1 and use Hauber for 2 more precious levels.

Now, here's what I want to take a look at. Maximum Haste v. 6-Hit, pre-75, excluding Ace's Helm.

Maximum Haste:
Dusk Gloves +1
Speed Belt
Fuma Sune-ate

The benefit here is mainly: No Hachiman, Neckpiece free for PCC. The main disadvantage, is that you are now going to take 7-hits to get 100+
The question is, will this haste get you faster to 100TP+ over a 6-hit build?

Total Delay 450GKT: 392.43 (6.5 seconds) --> 45.5 Seconds Until WS
With Hasso: Total Delay = 347.61 (5.8 Seconds) --> 40.6 Seconds Until WS
&With Haste: Total Delay = 281.69 (4.7 Seconds) --> 32.9 Seconds Until WS

Let's just consider Hasso & Haste.


And now the best build which abides by our filters (but, bye-bye Haubergeon)

Best 6-Hit Build:
Remember how you have to use Hachiman Kote/+1? I guess it makes life easier because Dusk Gloves are more expensive than Fumas, and they'll give the same bonus in haste. That is, if a haste build < 6hit pre-74

Hachiman Domaru +1
Hachiman Kote
Speed Belt
Fumas
Rajas Ring
Chiv Chain

Total Delay 450GKT: 410.01 (6.8 seconds) --> 40.8 Seconds Until WS
With Hasso: Total Delay = 365.19 (6.1 Seconds) --> 36.6 Seconds Until WS
&With Haste: Total Delay = 299.27 (5.0 Seconds) --> 30.0 Seconds Until WS


Total Delay 450GKT: 392.43 (6.5 seconds) --> 45.5 Seconds Until WS
With Hasso: Total Delay = 347.61 (5.8 Seconds) --> 40.6 Seconds Until WS
&With Haste: Total Delay = 281.69 (4.7 Seconds) --> 32.9 Seconds Until WS

So here's the huge difference. Even under the best conditions, maximum haste and whatnot, pre-75, it is more worthwhile to pursue a 6-hit build as opposed to a max-haste build...right...?

RIGHT...!??


Conclusion
Not entirely. In fact, in my opinion, not at all.

There are a number of things that we still have to consider:
1) The accuracy you forego in the 6-hit build, mainly, from not using a Haubergeon & a PCC. That's at the very least +17 accuracy. In the application of these numbers, if you're hitting all 7 hits versus missing one of your hits on the 6-hit build, you've shot yourself in the foot.
2) The most substantial difference in time it takes to go from 0TP->WS is when you have neither Haste or Hasso. But when you have both, the difference is 2.9 seconds between an optimal haste build and one that stresses on 6-hit.
3) Hachiman gear sucks
4) Even under more practical gear -- changing Dusk +1 to NQ, changing Speed Belt to Swift belt, the top 3 points are valid:

Swift Belt / Hachiman 6-hit Build // Hasso + Haste:
Total Delay: 308.50 (5.1 Seconds) --> 30.6 Seconds Until WS

Swift Belt / Dusk Gloves / Haubergeon:
Total Delay: 295.3125 (4.9 Seconds) --> 34.3 Seconds Until WS


Yes, just looking at the 6-hit build versus the Haste build (NQ or HQ), it looks like its better to use Hachiman gear. That lasts until you realize that you're taking 8 swings in your 6-hit build, and 7 swings in your haste build -- and doing it faster. The entirety of these numbers I put together using FFXICalc assume 100% Accuracy. Given that that's not the case, the loss of +17+ accuracy from Haubergeon to Hachiman Domaru for me makes it so much more worthwhile to pursue an HQ haste build.


I tried to make the post organized, although it faltered at many points. Chalk that up to me starting to write this at 4:30 AM...Shit, I got work in 2 hours.

[Ferien]

My 6-hit build (level 71) doesn't sacrifice any Acc or Haste...Why would it be a bad idea?

Soboro (really depending on what we're fighting)/Onikiri (fucking imps)/Tachi of Trials
Pole Strap (Claymore or Plat if using Soboro)
Tiphia or Lightning Bow
OHat
Chiv Chain
Attila's
Minuet or Merman's
Haub
Hachiman Kote
Ulthalam's
Rajas
Amemet +1
Swift
Shinimusha Haidate
Fuma

Bolded is 21 Store TP, at the loss of 0 Haste, maybe 3 Acc (could be wearing Fowling instead of Attila's...If I had PCC it'd still only be 8 acc), and 20 Attack. I'm still able to wear Haubergeon and Fumas. When I hit 72, the most I lose out on is 3% Haste from not being able to wear Dusk Gloves, and I won't be able to wear AF+1 pants until I get at least 1 merit in Store TP. The story changes a bit if I ever get Haidate, but that's still irrelevant for pre-75.

Why would you wear Domaru and the Sune-Ate when it can be done without? You lose so much more in those slots than you do in pants/ears/neck.

[Tyr]

Well, in my opinion accuracy's not the only thing you miss out on.

Chiv -> Peacock Charm
Attilla's -> Fowler's
H. Kote -> O.Kote
Pants -> R.K. Breeches

It's a difference of +8 Accuracy, Attack+25, STR+3, DEX+2. (Or attack+31 if you're using Merman's)

And if you were to use Shura at 73, that's even more accuracy you'd be losing.


It's true that Samurai don't really have great option at the leg slot -- you'd be using lv.55 armor well into your 70s. Nothing's wrong with your build perse, I just personally would prefer the build with more accuracy, attack, even in this situation where haste is not effected (pre-72)

Let's assume every other piece of gear is identical, and check 6-hit versus substituting those items for increased accuracy and attack. I will use myself as an example. At 71, Elv. SAM has base DEX of 60 and a GKT skill of 256 (no GKT merits) -- the difference of +8 Accuracy simply between Atilla's/Chiv and PCC/Fowler's roughly translates to 4% according to FFXICalc's estimated hit rate. For me, that itself is enough for me to warrant using that instead, without factoring +25 ACC, STR+3, DEX+2.

A lot of the stuff I put up on there are ideal situations or a list of expensive gear. You're right to point out that I didn't consider the legs-slot for +STP, but I still wouldn't use the setup you mentioned versus one that has +8 to +15/16 accuracy from 70-73'ish.

[Niiro]

I'm personally against 6 hit build until you can work it down to 1 piece of un-ideal STP gear. (ie: one piece of hachiman)

I feel it's a bit overrated and only useful in certain situations, mainly exp and dynamis, places where you can spam WSs all you like. But I find in most situations spamming as soon as you hit 100tp isn't the best idea, sometimes holding your TP and WSing more strategically can lead to better performance overall (by performance I mean a more efficient damage dealt:damage taken ratio, which can be important).

I didn't even use a 6 hit build most of the time (I'd usually use bando kote, I'd switch in Hachiman for when I wanted 6 hit) until I got usu feet, now I just have a natural 6 hit build (which is ideal).

I just think when you start sacrificing too much ACC/ATK/Haste to make a 6 hit setup you may be taking one step forward and 2 steps back, especially if you're not in a situation where you can use a 6 hit build to it's fullest.

[ringthree]

Also, as you go further with SAM gear, Askar body is a poor replacement for Usukane Sune-ate. Askar still requires an additional +1 Store TP on WS, while Usukane Sune-ate allows for any normal WS gear and full time use of Haubergeon (+1).

[Ferien]

My issue with all that is that the closer you get to 75, and before you have any merits, you lose out on even more by using a 6-hit build. Is it then only worth it if you're fully merited? Seems odd, since I've always read/been told that the best exp setup at 75, regardless of your merits, is 6hit and Haste.

Regarding mine specifically, I've always felt that being able to ws more often was worth the Attack loss, and I consider the acc loss negligible as I'm generally capped with Sushi and usually run 85~90% with meat. No PCC or Shura for me, so the acc difference is only Fowling, which...isn't worth it (if I had either, it may change my opinion of the build). Also, I keep seeing contradictory information regarding the relation between Accuracy and Hit Rate, so I still don't know whether to believe that it's .5%/1 or something completely different.

We'll see when I hit 72, though. Dusk (and by extension, the ability to wear Bracelets again) makes the 7-hit Haste/Atk build look better, but Hagun makes the 6-hit look better. Hagun's power makes me lean more towards 6-hit, but I need to get one first =x

[Judai]

Askar Korazin really isn't a good body piece unless you have full merits and/or Relic and even then, Usu Sune-ate is better and if you are serious about SAM you should be going for it instead of Askar.

As for holding TP, WHAT!? The only times you should ever hold TP;

Waiting on SC partner.
Mob is about to die.
You are holding damage for some reason.

If you are just planinly fighting and killing shit, let the fucking WS rip at 100%. So tired of retard SAMs who hold TP to 150% and up... or the fucking SAMs who hole TP for Sekka and wait so they can SC with themselves because they don't know how to Self SC unless they have 200% TP. In Dynamis, Einherjar and Exp parties things live about 30s-1m and if you can't "tank" a mob without getting owned in the face that long, you have problems. Half the time I am nearly fulltime Seigan just because I end up tanking 50% of the mobs in Dynamis and another Taru DD is usually tanking the other 50% because we don't hold back and just rape everything.

Also, as pointed out by Mosh, 6Hit DOES work at some levels pre 75, when you don't have as much haste gear in those slots. Once you hit 72, I have to say Haste>6Hit, but then go back to 6Hit when you hit 75 and merit some.

[sephir]

Id say Askar is one of the best body pieces for Sam if you can afford to lose the accuracy to use it. Aces helm really helps here as it makes up for a good half of the acc lost from Haub (+1). It also really depends on what your fighting too, if I was in the mire I could ditch a good amount of accuracy gear because I cap my accuracy pretty easily there.

And Judai for whatever reason when I try to quote you I get this big long message that is nowhere in the thread, im guessing you edited it out or something but still its weird. I think the mods should check it out.

[Zosi]

This seems like the right place to ask. I'm not particularly good with the math regarding this stuff, so hopefully one of y'all can help me out.

I'll preface this by saying that I don't have a Rajas, and will not be getting a Rajas regardless of what's posted here. I'm well aware of the benefits of it for SAM, but right now (and for the visible future), swapping rings is not an option. Posts that ignore that condition will earn you a spot on my ignore list, I'm very tired of hearing "Dood just get a Rajas its sooo awesum". You don't even have to post saying "Yeah, I know you're tired of hearing it, but...", trust me, I'm aware.

I'm interested in the math comparing the various non-Rajas 6-hit builds with a more conventional haste setup. I'm aware that something like Askar body/Usukane feet/Brutal is hands-down the best I can do, but until I get both of those pieces, I'm more interested in information about the following setups:

Base gear:
Weapon: Hagun or Onimaru
Head: Walahra Turban for TP, Shura Zunari Kabuto for WS
Neck: PCC for TP, Snow/Flame Gorget for WS
Earrings: Bushinomimi and Brutal Earring full time
Body: Haubergeon
Hands: See below
Rings: Woodsmans for TP, Ruby/Flame for WS
Back: Forager's Mantle
Waist: Swift Belt for TP, Warwolf for WS?
Legs: Byakko's Haidate for WS, Shura Haidate/Usukane Hizayoroi for WS
Feet: See below

Naive 6-hit: 6 STR, +13 Store TP
Hands: Hachiman kote
Feet: Hachiman sune-ate

Lucky Salvage 6-hit: 7 accuracy, 7 attack, 2% haste, +4 STR, +15 Store TP
Hands: Hachiman kote
Feet: Usukane Sune-ate

Naive haste: 5 attack, 6% Haste
Hands: Dusk Gloves
Feet: Fuma Sune-ate

I'm not just interested in a simple "This is best", I'm also interested in knowing the relative numbers to see how much it's better by, and what other potential improvements can be made, particularly involving Salvage or Nyzul gear. I assume that 6-hit builds involving Shinimusha Haidate or Hachiman body/legs are obviously inferior, but I'll admit that that's mostly based on hearsay and LOLDOMARU, so correct me if I'm wrong. That also excludes using Carbonara for +STP, for extremely obvious reasons. For the math's sake, assume I'll have full GKT and +Store TP merits and will either be using meat or no food. I don't list WS swaps for hands/feet because I'm not really clear on how the calculations work regarding TP from WS hits. Assume that Alkys are available for hands, and Rutter Sabotons are available for feet.

Thanks to anyone who's willing to dig through all the math regarding this.

[Judai]

Naive 6-hit: 6 STR, +13 Store TP
Hands: Hachiman kote
Feet: Hachiman sune-ate

Lucky Salvage 6-hit: 7 accuracy, 7 attack, 2% haste, +4 STR, +15 Store TP
Hands: Hachiman kote
Feet: Usukane Sune-ate

Naive haste: 5 attack, 6% Haste
Hands: Dusk Gloves
Feet: Fuma Sune-ate

Since you aren't getting Rajas I would go with Haste set-up, dropping 6% Haste would prolly hurt you just to get 6Hit. If you can get Usu sune-ate then I would prolly go for 6Hit though.

As for Askar Body, the only way I see it being viable is either on gimp ass mobs(which is obvious) or with fully merited GK, Aces's and Usu sune-ate combined, so you can make up for the loss in Acc from Hauby(+1). I have no GK Merits, hi2u MNK and WAR meat builds, and I just find it hard to believe that unless you have full GK merits and a solid amount of Acc you could hit well enough to drop Hauby(+1).

and yea I edited my other post after re-reading some shit.