SAM Gear

[Darkwill]

Even with fully merited GK, Ace's and Usukane Sune-Ate, Haubergeon +1 is still the best.

[Hakamaru]

Let's do some back of the envelope calculations. Suppose you have a glut of haste in your merit party. Further suppose that you have somehow achieved 100% ACC.

haste (15) + double march (20) = 35% haste

6-hit (2 Hachiman pieces) :
gear haste (14%) + other haste (35%) = 49% total haste
Hagun Delay (after haste) = 450 * (1 - 0.49) = 229

assume you take 100 swings...

100 swings with Hagun takes 22900 ticks of the game clock.
100 swings will net you 100/5=20 WSs.

Assume some reasonable damage per WS and per hit...
avg swing damage = 80
avs WS damage = 800

Total damage in 100 swings = (100*80) + (800*20) = 24,000


7-hit with haste :
ok, take the same number of game ticks and see how many swings you get with your extra haste.

gear haste (20%) + other haste (35%) = 55% total haste
Hagun Delay (after haste) = 450 * (1 - 0.55) = 202

Take the 22900 total ticks from the 100 swings with 6-hit, and see how many swings:
22900 ticks / 202 (ticks/swing) = 113 swings in the same amount of time.

113 swing nets you 113/6 = 18.8 WSs

Assume the same damage per WS and per hit...
avg swing damage = 80
avs WS damage = 800

Total damage in 113 swings = (113*80) + (800*18.8) = 24,080


Edit : Fixed a pretty big mistake. 6-hit build -> 5 hits/WS and 7-hit -> 6 hits/WS. This sort of changes the conclusion.

The 2 come out nearly identical under idealized circumstances. This means that the hachiman 6-hit will most definitely overtake the 7-hit haste build under real meripo conditions.

[Judai]

Using your same calculations; Usukane Sune-ate+Hachiman Hands comes out ahead of 7Hit/Haste by 80 Damage. (220.5 delay, 7Hit/Haste =20,720 dmg in 22,050ticks)

Of course, these calculations don't account for losing the benefits of Haste when switching mobs which I think would push 6 Hit ahead or at least even, since you don't lose 6Hit when swapping mobs.

[Hakamaru]

Using your same calculations; Usukane Sune-ate+Hachiman Hands comes out ahead of 7Hit/Haste by 80 Damage. (220.5 delay, 7Hit/Haste =20,720 dmg in 22,050ticks)

Of course, these calculations don't account for losing the benefits of Haste when switching mobs which I think would push 6 Hit ahead or at least even, since you don't lose 6Hit when swapping mobs.

Yeah... if you're gonna bring reality into the discussion.

But you're right. Actual meripo conditions are going to drag the haste gear numbers down a little bit. It's just that there's a bit of head-room between the the hachiman 6-hit and the haste 7-hit with that much external haste going on.

I also didn't account for WS stun-lock time cuz in this case it's identical between the 2 builds I considered.

If your merit party has less haste (like no marches), it's probably going to end up favoring the 6-hit though after you account for the short-comings of haste in a real merit party situation.

Also notice that I didn't include Hasso in any of the numbers. If you can get away with using Hasso for a meaningful amount of time in a merit party, you're probably not doing it right.

EDIT : I just noticed a pretty big mistake in my original post. I miscounted the number of hits it takes to WS. It's 1 less than the build specifies (i.e. 6-hit = 5hits + WS instead of 6 hits + WS).

It changes the conclusion... you're better off with the Hachiman 6-hit over the haste gear, even under ideal haste conditions.

[Darkwill]

Didn't need really calculations for 6-hit vs 6% haste. Probably would need to do calculation if you have ~9% haste of a difference.

[RKenshin]

Let's do some back of the envelope calculations. Suppose you have a glut of haste in your merit party. Further suppose that you have somehow achieved 100% ACC.

I did these in some other post a little while ago, but I feel these calculations represent the situation more accurately:

So it's:
6-hit
Hand: Dusk+1
Feet: Hachi+1
vs.
6-hit
Hand: Hachi
Feet: Hachi
vs.
7-hit
Hand: Dusk+1
Feet: Fuma

Assuming Hagun, SAM/WAR, Store TP merits (merit anything in place of this and retire), Marchx2, Haste spell, 90% acc, the SAM starts with TP, Speed Belt + Ace's Helm + Dusk+1... Here's the comparison over one hour of non-stop melee attacks, which will also incorrectly generate numbers in favor of higher haste values:

   
                          Dusk+1/Hachi       Hachi/Hachi        Dusk+1/Fuma
TTL Haste                     54%                  50%               57%
Delay                         207                  225               193
Swings/h                      1043                 960              1119
DA                            156                   144               167        
TTL Swings                    1199                 1104             1286  
Acc                           90%                  90%               90%

TTL Hits (inc. Zanshin)      1100                 1013              1180   
TTL WS                       220                   202               196

Now, using an approximation of what a well-equipped/merited SAM's averages would be in the (assumed) 2 BRD PT... We can also fill in the rest.

   
                          Dusk+1/Hachi       Hachi/Hachi        Dusk+1/Fuma
TTL Hits (inc. Zanshin)       1100                1013               1180   
TTL WS                       220                 202                 196  

WS Avg                      1000                1000                1000
Melee Avg                    170                 170                170

TTL Damage                  407000             374210             396600

Again, this is in a situation completely in unrealistic and in favor of the haste build. In a real, practical situation, I would even argue that the hachi+hachi combo would likely come close, match, and maybe even pull ahead of the haste setup.

[testdummy]

Quick question, why does the Dusk+1/fuma get less # of ws then the hachi/hachi setup if they're all 6 hit setups, if the dusk+1/fuma setup gets more hits, shouldn't it ws more often?

[The Blackrose]

Quick question, why does the Dusk+1/fuma get less # of ws then the hachi/hachi setup if they're all 6 hit setups, if the dusk+1/fuma setup gets more hits, shouldn't it ws more often?

I'm a little confused on that one as well. Ruke might have meant that the Dusk +1/Fuma set up was a 7-hit, unless he is pulling STP from other sources such as DOMARUUUUUUUUU.

[Judai]

Yea, that's a typo. Dusk+1/Fuma 7Hit.

[RKenshin]

Oops, yeah that was a typo. Dusk+1/Fuma would be a 7-hit.