2008 NFL Playoffs: Divisonal Round Picks *Playoffs!?*

[Akiyama]

Wes Welker? You're a fucking idiot if you think that. I'm sorry. Wes Welker is good but come on now, let's not be stupid.

Randy Moss is the Barry Sanders of his position. What makes him so good isnt the fact that he's a 1-trick pony, it's the fact that you can't game plan for him. Sure you can double or triple team him, but theres only 4-5 defensive backs on the field at one time. You're asking to get burned somewhere else if you tripe team Randy, and even then he can still score. (Ask the Jets)

If you throw the ball up, 9/10 times Randy will catch it. Period.

Jerry Rice was dominant, but he's not Randy Moss dominant. Him being on 2 of the top 5 offenses of all time isn't a coincidence, either.

You can argue that Randy isn't the best at his position, but to say that nine out of ten coaches wouldn't take him over Wes Welker is comedic at best. Do you even know where Welker went to college?

Let's put it this way, when your Last Name is a synonym for making a great play over someone, you've got to be doing something right. You don't here the kids going OOOOH, YOU GOT WELKER'D THAT PLAY! LOL

I know where he went. =P He played at Texas Tech.

The fact of the matter is, Wes Welker is a system WR. If he wasn't with Tom Brady on this record setting team, we wouldn't be talking about him right now. Then again, it's the same with any player. Look what happened to Jerry Rice when he went to the black hole in Oakland? He did okay, but not nearly as good as when Montana and Young were throwing to him. Same with Moss. He was great with the Vikings, did nothing for Oakland (as most players do now adays) and now resparks his career in a record setting offense. Like Deejay said, Moss is a one trick pony. The thing is.. you know the deep ball is coming to him, but you just can't stop it. You can double/triple, but when he's on, he'll still pull it down somehow. Welker is good in the slot, a speedster, falls forward like any good WR should, and can return decently. He's no Randy Moss and any comparison is silly.

Also.. Steve Smith is not a "great" WR. Steve Smith had one really good year, but he's had injury problems, his offense is too inconsistant, so no. Don't clump him with Moss, TO (T_T), Rice, Tim Brown, or any of those guys. D: Marvin Harrison's been good too, forgot about him.

I guess the point is.. I don't think there is any WR out there that you can say he'd play amazingly with ANY QB, because that's just not true. Almost all of the great WR's out there have had Hall of Fame/Hall of Fame calibur QB's throwing to them. That's why I think it's hard to judge just how great a WR is now adays. If you took Manning away from Harrison and Wayne these last few years, just how good would they be right now? We'll never know.

/ramble

[Tyche]

Wes Welker? You're a fucking idiot if you think that. I'm sorry. Wes Welker is good but come on now, let's not be stupid.

Randy Moss is the Barry Sanders of his position. What makes him so good isnt the fact that he's a 1-trick pony, it's the fact that you can't game plan for him. Sure you can double or triple team him, but theres only 4-5 defensive backs on the field at one time. You're asking to get burned somewhere else if you tripe team Randy, and even then he can still score. (Ask the Jets)

If you throw the ball up, 9/10 times Randy will catch it. Period.

Jerry Rice was dominant, but he's not Randy Moss dominant. Him being on 2 of the top 5 offenses of all time isn't a coincidence, either.

You can argue that Randy isn't the best at his position, but to say that nine out of ten coaches wouldn't take him over Wes Welker is comedic at best. Do you even know where Welker went to college?

Let's put it this way, when your Last Name is a synonym for making a great play over someone, you've got to be doing something right. You don't here the kids going OOOOH, YOU GOT WELKER'D THAT PLAY! LOL

NFL fans have the worst memory....

[Deejay]

You're telling me that Randy Moss isn't the most dominant WR to play the sport? To me, Randy Moss is the pure epitome of what it means to be a dominant player.

Jerry Rice's legacy as a dominant player is different than Moss'. He was famous for his amazing longevity, and has had one of the (if not THE) longest span of prime years. He was a playmaker and deserves to be considered the best WR to play the game. However, in my opinion, Randy is better.

Even if you wanted to compare stats, Randy is about to break every single one by the end of his career if he stays with the Pats.

You could give the edge to Jerry though, as he dominated the NFL during a time where defensive backs were allowed to do a lot more. But I could counter that argument with the fact that no corner back (short of maybe Champ Bailey) can keep up with Randy Moss 1 on 1. Had he played during Rice's era, he'd have seen a lot more 1 on 1 opportunities. That says a lot.

Not to mention the fact that with Randy, you know whats coming, yet you still cant stop it. Randy's been doing the same thing since he was a rookie. Tell me whats changed in his game since 2001 and now? Does he do anything different? No. Is his productivity the same? Hell fucking yes. In my opinion, that's what it means to be dominant and no one does a better job at dominating Defensive backs than Randy Moss.

(and for the record, i'm a WR at heart. Moss isn't my favorite, Chad Johnson is <3)

[Tyche]

Moss won't get within spitting distance of Rice. He'd be lucky to see the pats next season, and he certainly isn't going to be there for another 5-6 years it would take for him to break the records. By famous for longevity, you mean famous for putting up numbers that other HoF WRs may but up 2 or 3 seasons for 15 years? Is that what you meant?

[Plow]

You guys realize the record Moss broke in the 16th game, Jerry Rice set in TWELVE...


He did nothing in Oakland? Excuse me what?

In 2001 he was 39 years old. With Rich freaking Gannon as his quarterback he caught 83 passes for 1,139 yards and 8 TD. In 2002 he was 40. He caught 92 for 1211 and 7. Yeah, he totally did nothing. Any ole 39 year old off the street could pull those numbers.


Let's take a look at some of Rice's records shall we?

Receptions, 15xx. 2nd place is 400+ behind.

Touchdown catches, 197. 2nd place is 67 behind.

Single season touchdowns per game: 1.83. Second is Moss this year at 1.44.

Career recieving yards: 22,895. 2nd place is 8000+ behind him.


I was giving Moss the benefit of the doubt saying "well Jerry Rice played this millenium" but with a meh cuz he was old by then, if you want to compare the 2 directly, you're absolutely kidding yourself if you believe Randy Moss is better at flat out ANYTHING than Jerry Rice at his best.

The only person remotely comparable to Jerry Rice in the way he dominated the game, in any sport, is Wilt Chamberlain.

[wyrmtung]

You're telling me that Randy Moss isn't the most dominant WR to play the sport? To me, Randy Moss is the pure epitome of what it means to be a dominant player.

Jerry Rice's legacy as a dominant player is different than Moss'. He was famous for his amazing longevity, and has had one of the (if not THE) longest span of prime years. He was a playmaker and deserves to be considered the best WR to play the game. However, in my opinion, Randy is better.

Even if you wanted to compare stats, Randy is about to break every single one by the end of his career if he stays with the Pats.

You could give the edge to Jerry though, as he dominated the NFL during a time where defensive backs were allowed to do a lot more. But I could counter that argument with the fact that no corner back (short of maybe Champ Bailey) can keep up with Randy Moss 1 on 1. Had he played during Rice's era, he'd have seen a lot more 1 on 1 opportunities. That says a lot.

Not to mention the fact that with Randy, you know whats coming, yet you still cant stop it. Randy's been doing the same thing since he was a rookie. Tell me whats changed in his game since 2001 and now? Does he do anything different? No. Is his productivity the same? Hell fucking yes. In my opinion, that's what it means to be dominant and no one does a better job at dominating Defensive backs than Randy Moss.

(and for the record, i'm a WR at heart. Moss isn't my favorite, Chad Johnson is <3)

I like Randy Moss but give me a break.

Disclaimer: I give Moss a lot of credit. I even credited him for 99% of Daunte Culpepper's 2004 season. (While others were chanting MVP for Daunte during the season, I was chanting overrated because I knew that Moss was saving his ass for every bad throw he tossed.)


Randy is about to break every single one by the end of his career if he stays with the Pats? Woulda, coulda, shoulda. You should save your statement for when he actually does it. You gotta actually walk the walk in sports if you want to be called the greatest. This is why Ken Griffey Jr is not the greatest right now. IMO, he is better than Bonds and A-Rod combined but injuries prevented him from proving it.

Had he played during Rice's era, he'd have seen a lot more 1 on 1 opportunities. That says a lot. Had he played in Rice's era he would get laid out on his ass more and he wouldn't be getting away with pushing off on the defender to get free like he does today. Again, a woulda, coulda, shoulda argument. Let's wait for a time machine to be built so we can settle this for sure.

Not to mention the fact that with Randy, you know whats coming, yet you still cant stop it. As if everyone in the stadium and watching TV didn't know that the next play was going to Rice.

[Plow]

I'd freaking kill to see Deion vs Moss man lol, there were some ridiculous corners playing during Rice's career, and they were so much more effective being able to be physical.


Just a word to the wise, I wouldn't say someone's better than Jerry Rice around people that have been watching football for more than 5 or 10 years lol.

[Akiyama]

You guys realize the record Moss broke in the 16th game, Jerry Rice set in TWELVE...


He did nothing in Oakland? Excuse me what?

In 2001 he was 39 years old. With Rich freaking Gannon as his quarterback he caught 83 passes for 1,139 yards and 8 TD. In 2002 he was 40. He caught 92 for 1211 and 7. Yeah, he totally did nothing. Any ole 39 year old off the street could pull those numbers.


Let's take a look at some of Rice's records shall we?

Receptions, 15xx. 2nd place is 400+ behind.

Touchdown catches, 197. 2nd place is 67 behind.

Single season touchdowns per game: 1.83. Second is Moss this year at 1.44.

Career recieving yards: 22,895. 2nd place is 8000+ behind him.


I was giving Moss the benefit of the doubt saying "well Jerry Rice played this millenium" but with a meh cuz he was old by then, if you want to compare the 2 directly, you're absolutely kidding yourself if you believe Randy Moss is better at flat out ANYTHING than Jerry Rice at his best.

The only person remotely comparable to Jerry Rice in the way he dominated the game, in any sport, is Wilt Chamberlain.

Sorry.. I was wrong about the Raiders thing. So more than one player went to Oakland and did something. Sue me.

Also.. you're forgetting another person compareable in terms of dominations; Tiger Woods. I guess you probably don't watch golf though so you wouldn't know, but Tiger's pretty good.

[Plow]

Sorry.. I was wrong about the Raiders thing. So more than one player went to Oakland and did something. Sue me.

Also.. you're forgetting another person compareable in terms of dominations; Tiger Woods. I guess you probably don't watch golf though so you wouldn't know, but Tiger's pretty good.

Golf is not a sport golf is math for athletic people. (or fat old guys that need some sun)


Edit: also, in a sense, you're right. Rice, for Jerry Rice, did have pretty crappy seasons in Oakland. The difference is that Rice in a bad year when he's all old with a crappy qb is a top 10 WR, Moss in a bad year during his prime is not worthy of mention until he moons the crowd.

[Akiyama]

Sorry.. I was wrong about the Raiders thing. So more than one player went to Oakland and did something. Sue me.

Also.. you're forgetting another person compareable in terms of dominations; Tiger Woods. I guess you probably don't watch golf though so you wouldn't know, but Tiger's pretty good.

Golf is not a sport golf is math for athletic people. (or fat old guys that need some sun)


Edit: also, in a sense, you're right. Rice, for Jerry Rice, did have pretty crappy seasons in Oakland. The difference is that Rice in a bad year when he's all old with a crappy qb is a top 10 WR, Moss in a bad year during his prime is not worthy of mention until he moons the crowd.

QFT. Didn't Moss have around 45 catches and like.. 500 yards or so in Oakland with Kerry Collins? Granted Collins isn't great, but he's a decent passer if anything. Moss had a shitty year, while Rice did do worse in Oakland, but didn't drop off the earth like a lot of athletes there. One guy I do think is great for sticking it out there was Tim Brown. He was a great WR too.

Also, golf is too a sport. You go out there and play 18 holes in the heat like they have to and what not and score what they do. You have to be strong to hit it as far as they do and know how to do maths =P

[Plow]

heh I was mostly kidding about the golf, I played it a lot when I was younger


It's just so hard to compare because it's not like you can say... "well tiger does shit against a double team!" lol. As far as individual sports go there's been more, you could make an argument for Roger Federer, or even Sampras in tennis, or Martina Navratilova, or like... I had someone from a different sport in mind but I lost it trying to spell Navratilova.

[Tyche]

I find it hard to compare woods and Nicklaus. Woods has the benefit of the latest technology that has vastly improved clubs and balls. Then theres swing analysis. Oh, theres also stuff like skycaddie and what not. The golden bear had used carved pieces of wood attached to a stick (they called them drivers in the 60's) during some of his great years. Drivers were rare back then, Jack used the same driver for years. Don't get me wrong, I think woods dominates any single sport more than anyone in sports, but Jack had monumental success and didn't have access to some of the technologies that current players have.

[Andarvi]

By the time Tiger Woods is done, and very possibly Federer as well, they will exist in an echelon across all sports that is occupied only by the likes of Jordon and Gretzky. Im having a hard time thinking of a football player who dominated football like these two (this years pats? rice maybe? im not sure). Wilt and Russell may be in this echelon as well, though i love Magic, dont think hes quite here.

[Andarvi]

I find it hard to compare woods and Nicklaus. Woods has the benefit of the latest technology that has vastly improved clubs and balls. Then theres swing analysis. Oh, theres also stuff like skycaddie and what not. The golden bear had used carved pieces of wood attached to a stick (they called them drivers in the 60's) during some of his great years. Drivers were rare back then, Jack used the same driver for years. Don't get me wrong, I think woods dominates any single sport more than anyone in sports, but Jack had monumental success and didn't have access to some of the technologies that current players have.

True, but Woods is going to smash every golf record and be so far ahead of jack in wins and gran slam titles it will compensate for difference of the times.

[archibaldcrane]

To be fair, Wilt dominated the game of basketball even more than Jordan did. He wasn't a better player, but his size and skill at that time were so unparalleled that they changed the rules by widening the lane, what, 3 times because of him?

Wilt was more dominant at his time than Jordan was at his.

[Plow]

By the time Tiger Woods is done, and very possibly Federer as well, they will exist in an echelon across all sports that is occupied only by the likes of Jordon and Gretzky. Im having a hard time thinking of a football player who dominated football like these two (this years pats? rice maybe? im not sure). Wilt and Russell may be in this echelon as well, though i love Magic, dont think hes quite here.

There's no question Wilt does, his level of domination was absolutely absurd. He was probably at least Shaq's equal physically and superior skillwise in an era when some of the best centers were like... 6'8 230. Teams would quite literally quadruple team him and he'd still score with ease.

[Mizango]

I find it hard to compare woods and Nicklaus. Woods has the benefit of the latest technology that has vastly improved clubs and balls. Then theres swing analysis. Oh, theres also stuff like skycaddie and what not. The golden bear had used carved pieces of wood attached to a stick (they called them drivers in the 60's) during some of his great years. Drivers were rare back then, Jack used the same driver for years. Don't get me wrong, I think woods dominates any single sport more than anyone in sports, but Jack had monumental success and didn't have access to some of the technologies that current players have.

Couldn't have said it any better. Taking nothing away from Tiger at all, but put Jack in todays game in his prime, with all this technology and drivers not made of a stick and a stone, he would be a beast. Again, not taking anything whatsoever away from Tiger.

[Tyche]

Well, the time in which they played isn't really the correlation, as their competition had access to the same equipment they did at said time. What is comparable is the way they dominated their competition. I think if they played in the same day and age and competed against each other in their prime (both having access to the same equipment, etc) golf would be fucking amazing to watch, like when vijay was good and mickelson wasnt a choke artist.

[Plow]

I find it hard to compare woods and Nicklaus. Woods has the benefit of the latest technology that has vastly improved clubs and balls. Then theres swing analysis. Oh, theres also stuff like skycaddie and what not. The golden bear had used carved pieces of wood attached to a stick (they called them drivers in the 60's) during some of his great years. Drivers were rare back then, Jack used the same driver for years. Don't get me wrong, I think woods dominates any single sport more than anyone in sports, but Jack had monumental success and didn't have access to some of the technologies that current players have.

Couldn't have said it any better. Taking nothing away from Tiger at all, but put Jack in todays game in his prime, with all this technology and drivers not made of a stick and a stone, he would be a beast. Again, not taking anything whatsoever away from Tiger.

I'll still take away from Tiger because he's just not doing what the others have done. He has to repeat a motion, memorize, be in shape to execute it perfectly, etc. But he never has to worry about a defense. The only thing he has to beat is himself, and nature.

Federer could never make his name if he couldn't return such and such's serve.

Tom Brady would be just another guy if there weren't 300 pound freaks of nature coming at him from 5 feet away at 20 miles an hour.

etc. etc.


I dunno, I just see it as too hard to compare the competition between pure execution and beating the people actively trying to stop you.

[Mizango]

By the time Tiger Woods is done, and very possibly Federer as well, they will exist in an echelon across all sports that is occupied only by the likes of Jordon and Gretzky. Im having a hard time thinking of a football player who dominated football like these two (this years pats? rice maybe? im not sure). Wilt and Russell may be in this echelon as well, though i love Magic, dont think hes quite here.

There's no question Wilt does, his level of domination was absolutely absurd. He was probably at least Shaq's equal physically and superior skillwise in an era when some of the best centers were like... 6'8 230. Teams would quite literally quadruple team him and he'd still score with ease.

Yeah Wilt was the epitome of the word beast. That is almost like Pistol Pete Maravich averaging what, 45 ppg for 2 years in a row? Without the 3 point line being implemented yet, he could shoot lights out, imagine had he had a 3 point stripe to shoot from behind.

Yeah back when Vijay actually played a better game than he talked.