FFXI Thinning Out?

[Correction]

Weeks of kara and gruul, over and over. Then you get to the next level: months of SSC and TK over and over and over.

The fact that your guild refuses to progress past Kael'Thas is not WoW's fault.
The fact that most LSes in FFXI continue to run Dynamis, a 3-year old event, IS FFXI's fault.

You make it sound like a guild has a choice of a lot of different dungeons to go to. "Hay guys! We just cleared kara last night, so what do you want to do tonight? TK or BT?

That's not the decision. The decision is closer to "Okay we're maxxed out on Kara gear, so we relegate it to a 3 hour event on weekends for our alts, while filling the raid schedule with Zul'Aman, DST farming and learning Void Reaver and Lurker." A month later it's "Leo/Solarian down, make sure you have BT/Hyjal attunements ready for when we down Kael/Vashj." Again, if your guild never reached that point, don't blame WoW.

you could pvp or get owned in the arena by teams better geared than you, over and over, hoping the millisecond of lag doesn't screw you over.

WoW rewards people for sucking at Arena too. If you don't enjoy sucking at Arena there are solutions beyond the reach of game designers.

Same reason people don't go into MC, BWL, AQ40, etc. It's obsoleted and just taking up space.

What? Why is obsolete content bad? Taking up space where? Your hard drive?

I find it hard to muster any energy to work on Kael, knowing that the gear he drops will be pointless in a few months. Why should I play, if it really doesn't matter?

Let me put this statement into perspective for you.

I find it hard to muster any energy to work on Dynamis, Salvage, Einharjar or Kings because the gear that doesn't drop is only situationally useful in a handful of cases, and even then only for a handful of job abilities used or spells cast

You can't think that weakly designed T5 gear is a weakness unshared by the overwhelming majority of drops you find in FFXI. But you know what? Sometimes even silly T5 gear and off-main AF2 makes people happy. If you can't see that gear that drops and somehow contributes to your guild then you're probably ready to quit MMOs altogether.

And lol if you think that Ret pally is getting tiered gear over the rogue. Wow forces you to play your class a specific way, or else you ain't gettin your gear at all.

Now I think I understand. You're an embittered Ret pally, upset that 2/3 very strong PvE talent trees isn't enough. Off/Hybrid spec classes have suffered in WoW forever and if you want an apology you're asking the wrong forum.

But the time argument doesn't make as much sense anymore, at least to me. Sure, when you're leveling up, you can do something in an hour. At end-game? Maybe join a bg and hope it doesn't go over an hour. Farm some gold? Although you can farm cash in FFXI in an hour as well. Can't raid, obviously. Level an alt? Maybe grind a bit of rep? Unless the only way to get that rep is an instance run, which you don't have time for.

You quit before Daily Quests were introduced, evidently. This one unrequested feature has revitalized a long list of things that people used to loathe:

1) Reputation grinds
2) Farming for gold
3) Non-Heroic/Heroic Dungeons
4) Battlegrounds

The addition of daily quests has made each of these now a multi-goal experience. You get gold, honor, gear and reputation in one tidy package, repeatable every day of the week. So if you're tired of the raiding game, this is available. And if you don't like doing these things I can't believe you like soloing in FFXI, either.

Hey look, no trash to clear, just a straight shot at fire crystals and Obl.Abjurations. And all this takes 3 hours, maybe a little more, at most. No 4-5 hours per night of raiding the same thing.

Fixed. Again, not WoW's fault your guild refused to raid BT/Hyjal. Maybe it is WoW's fault that Paladins aren't desired tanks or DPS at T6 content, but you weren't topping DPS charts as Ret from 1-70 so that can't have come as a surprise. On the other hand, FFXI makes full use of every class, amirite?

[Lucavi]

I wasted more time on my 60 and 70 epic crap then I did in FFXI crap. Not to mention with 80 cap coming soon. It will be an endless cycle. Get to 80 even more instances, get gear, D/E old gear and wait til 90. An then do even more quests, even more instances, get gear, D/E old gear and wait for 100..

At least there's actual new content, even if it is doing the same type of thing for the reward. Look at FFXI in comparison, where you're still doing the same. exact. king. fights. for the good stuff. Ranger is one of the biggest examples. You could feasibly bypass every other expansion other than RoZ with Ranger and be fine, assuming you maxed your gear from RoZ. After 3 expansions (later), that's retarded.

Much of the new content is fluff if you're actually looking for new sweet items. You can hit limbus or you can hit salvage, but if you were stockpiled with Sky + 3kings gear when CoP, ToAU and WotG dropped, you were still in wonderful shape.

Drg is one of the rare jobs that actually saw a massive boost in gear quality post-RotZ (compare AJ + loldragon to Conte, Homam, or Ares). I'd talk about the eastern jobs, but everyone that doesn't have Haidate are still drooling over getting it, so..

nope, you do not need to buy Gil. Shut the fuck up about farming. 99% of the FFXI population during 02-06 bought gil, they didn't farm. Argue it all you want. They didn't.)

I love FFXI, and I (now) love WoW, but I never bought gil, and never will. It was hard to do it legit, but it was right to do it legit, plus I'd rather spend my RL cash on something a bit more tangible than in-game currency.. like hookers!

[Demetrius*]

its the journey not the destination. the first time your linkshell downed some fights i imagine it was a pretty big accomplishment. someone in my old very successful ls said the biggest accomplishment he felt was killing vrtra years ago. and i can tell you it wasn't because of the drops. wow bosses are anything but easy the first time you're clearing them. when you're farming them like you would faf, yea who cares, but even the first time you downed faf felt special. its nice that wow has a lot of bosses you can feel that with cause they all offer a challenge at one point or another.
if they raise the level cap so what. i still had a lot of fun overcoming the bosses they offered. why do you think low manning fights became so popular and fun. its the only challenge that was left in ffxi.

[Kenji]

The fact that your guild refuses to progress past Kael'Thas is not WoW's fault.
The fact that most LSes in FFXI continue to run Dynamis, a 3-year old event, IS FFXI's fault.

It's not a matter of refuses. They can't. Been working on him, what, 4 months now and still can barely get to phase 4? In FFXI, you don't have to run Dynamis. You can get decent gear elsewhere. In fact, most jobs have better gear elsewhere. Sam relic gear? lol. Plenty of other jobs got gear boosts for various slots with each xpac.

That's not the decision. The decision is closer to "Okay we're maxxed out on Kara gear, so we relegate it to a 3 hour event on weekends for our alts, while filling the raid schedule with Zul'Aman, DST farming and learning Void Reaver and Lurker." A month later it's "Leo/Solarian down, make sure you have BT/Hyjal attunements ready for when we down Kael/Vashj." Again, if your guild never reached that point, don't blame WoW.

I've downed everything up to, but not including, Kael, in various guilds. And most people *will* reach a point where you've got everything on farm, except for 1 thing that you work on over and over. Usually it's Kael, but Vashj, too.

WoW rewards people for sucking at Arena too. If you don't enjoy sucking at Arena there are solutions beyond the reach of game designers.

I have no problems admitting I suck at PvP. I only did arena and BGs because they released Season 3 gear, and it was better than most T5. I'll also admit the pvp aspect of wow is pretty good, for those that like it and are good at it. But even you have to admit, if you aren't packing 400 Res, you're useless in there. You'll get locked down and killed in one CC cycle, unless your opponents royally suck.

What? Why is obsolete content bad? Taking up space where? Your hard drive?

Maybe it's the programmer in me. But it seems kinda pointless to invalidate your entire end-game with each xpac. Why? Why not just update it while adding new options? Give your playerbase a wide-ranging options of places to go? Why waste your time programming something that will only last a year, when you can program it to last several years, over the course of your game? I got a chuckle when I heard they were going to re-use Naxx "because not a lot of people got to experience it." Yesir, top-tier programming job for 5% of your playerbase! Makes lots of sense.

Let me put this statement into perspective for you.

[quote:34ihqoep]I find it hard to muster any energy to work on Dynamis, Salvage, Einharjar or Kings because the gear that doesn't drop is only situationally useful in a handful of cases, and even then only for a handful of job abilities used or spells cast

You can't think that weakly designed T5 gear is a weakness unshared by the overwhelming majority of drops you find in FFXI. But you know what? Sometimes even silly T5 gear and off-main AF2 makes people happy. If you can't see that gear that drops and somehow contributes to your guild then you're probably ready to quit MMOs altogether.[/quote:34ihqoep]

Actually, the gear you get in those places, is useful across many jobs. Especially handy when you level up another job and have 1 set that can be used for more than one. And the whole point was that you have *gasp* options! A lot of them, in fact. Go for AF+1? Relic? Homam/nashira? Marduk/Usukane/Yigit/Skadi, etc.? Abjurations? You can change your gameplay experience at your whim, so you're not stuck grinding AV over and over. And by the time all the WotG stuff is out, you can bet there will be yet another option for getting end-game gear. Perhaps even new merits as well.

I like variety, but that's just me.

Now I think I understand. You're an embittered Ret pally, upset that 2/3 very strong PvE talent trees isn't enough. Off/Hybrid spec classes have suffered in WoW forever and if you want an apology you're asking the wrong forum.

Actually, my pally was prot. I specced ret once or twice, and briefly wondered about it, but I liked tanking. Too bad warriors were still better than you in raids. How many top end guilds used prot pallies? I haven't heard of much, if any. I got tired of healing. I liked my shadow priest, unless it was those nights where we were light on healing and I spec holy. Even my elemental shammy got sidelined unless I specced resto at times.

And yes, I do hold the developers to the wall for not making each role just as good as the others. That's bad programming.

You quit before Daily Quests were introduced, evidently. This one unrequested feature has revitalized a long list of things that people used to loathe:

1) Reputation grinds
2) Farming for gold
3) Non-Heroic/Heroic Dungeons
4) Battlegrounds

The addition of daily quests has made each of these now a multi-goal experience. You get gold, honor, gear and reputation in one tidy package, repeatable every day of the week. So if you're tired of the raiding game, this is available. And if you don't like doing these things I can't believe you like soloing in FFXI, either.

Actually, I quite last month, so I did get to experience the magic of daily quests. Wasn't bad, til I got exhalted with all factions and made more money than I knew what to do with. So that appeal died. Well, on one character anyway. The others, well, the thought of grinding all those reps all over again. And again. And again. Just didn't appeal to me.

[quote:34ihqoep]Hey look, no trash to clear, just a straight shot at fire crystals and Obl.Abjurations. And all this takes 3 hours, maybe a little more, at most. No 4-5 hours per night of raiding the same thing.

Fixed. Again, not WoW's fault your guild refused to raid BT/Hyjal. Maybe it is WoW's fault that Paladins aren't desired tanks or DPS at T6 content, but you weren't topping DPS charts as Ret from 1-70 so that can't have come as a surprise. On the other hand, FFXI makes full use of every class, amirite?[/quote:34ihqoep]

Thank you. Yes, that was part of the problem, and it was WoW's fault. Maybe you were a rogue or a lock, and thus only had 1 role, and lucky you, got to dps? I actually tried going ret a few times in raids, on lower content. Didn't really like it. If I was going to dps, I wanted to do it on my tauren elemental shammy.

And yes, FFXI *does* make use of every class. Some are a bit more desired than others at different points. But even if they are less-than-optimal, they are still useful and people aren't as hard-assed about what gets in. Why? Because 1 person doesn't determine the fight. In a WoW progression fight, 1 or 2 deaths and no combat rezzes generally means you're screwed. Wipe it. 5 people die at Kirin? Just keep kiting til you rez those people and their weakness is gone. Even a tank death is not an issue, whereas it's heavily detrimental in WoW.

Now, perhaps people like that kind of difficulty. I won't begrudge them that. Different strokes for different folks. Was I upset that I couldn't play some of my valid character roles in raids? Yeah, of course. But in the end, I wanted to progress my character, and I asking myself if I really was. Not when I wanted to tank, and instead got healing gear pushed at it, and only got sloppy tanking seconds after the real tanks, err, warriors were done.

Both WoW and FFXI will be around a long while. I discovered the former wasn't for me, because I couldn't play the character that 70 levels of the game told me I could play, and I got tired of running SSC/TK night after night after night for 4-5 months.

[Correction]

And yes, FFXI *does* make use of every class. Some are a bit more desired than others at different points. But even if they are less-than-optimal, they are still useful and people aren't as hard-assed about what gets in. Why? Because 1 person doesn't determine the fight. In a WoW progression fight, 1 or 2 deaths and no combat rezzes generally means you're screwed. Wipe it. 5 people die at Kirin? Just keep kiting til you rez those people and their weakness is gone. Even a tank death is not an issue, whereas it's heavily detrimental in WoW.

I half-agree and half-disagree with you there. If you're a career BLM you'll find yourself a stunbitch in almost every fight introduced since the CoP Wyrms were brought in. That's not good use of one of the original 6 jobs in FFXI. Love your PUP or BST? Tough shit bring your BRD or RDM instead. LSes make exactly the same decisions about efficiency that guilds do in WoW and that's a problem endemic in almost every MMORPG ever released. Ultimately you can't compare the laid-back LS in FFXI that brought your DRG to Bahamut II to the Guild in WoW that didn't want your Prot Pally tanking Solarian, because the tables are so easy to turn there.

[Rocl]

And yes, FFXI *does* make use of every class. Some are a bit more desired than others at different points. But even if they are less-than-optimal, they are still useful and people aren't as hard-assed about what gets in. Why? Because 1 person doesn't determine the fight. In a WoW progression fight, 1 or 2 deaths and no combat rezzes generally means you're screwed. Wipe it. 5 people die at Kirin? Just keep kiting til you rez those people and their weakness is gone. Even a tank death is not an issue, whereas it's heavily detrimental in WoW.

I half-agree and half-disagree with you there. If you're a career BLM you'll find yourself a stunbitch in almost every fight introduced since the CoP Wyrms were brought in. That's not good use of one of the original 6 jobs in FFXI. Love your PUP or BST? Tough shit bring your BRD or RDM instead. LSes make exactly the same decisions about efficiency that guilds do in WoW and that's a problem endemic in almost every MMORPG ever released. Ultimately you can't compare the laid-back LS in FFXI that brought your DRG to Bahamut II to the Guild in WoW that didn't want your Prot Pally tanking Solarian, because the tables are so easy to turn there.

Clearly you quit before TP Burning was king, because DRGs are useful with Angon for that sort of thing.

[Kenji]

And yes, FFXI *does* make use of every class. Some are a bit more desired than others at different points. But even if they are less-than-optimal, they are still useful and people aren't as hard-assed about what gets in. Why? Because 1 person doesn't determine the fight. In a WoW progression fight, 1 or 2 deaths and no combat rezzes generally means you're screwed. Wipe it. 5 people die at Kirin? Just keep kiting til you rez those people and their weakness is gone. Even a tank death is not an issue, whereas it's heavily detrimental in WoW.

I half-agree and half-disagree with you there. If you're a career BLM you'll find yourself a stunbitch in almost every fight introduced since the CoP Wyrms were brought in. That's not good use of one of the original 6 jobs in FFXI. Love your PUP or BST? Tough shit bring your BRD or RDM instead. LSes make exactly the same decisions about efficiency that guilds do in WoW and that's a problem endemic in almost every MMORPG ever released. Ultimately you can't compare the laid-back LS in FFXI that brought your DRG to Bahamut II to the Guild in WoW that didn't want your Prot Pally tanking Solarian, because the tables are so easy to turn there.

True, but you're still taken to a lot of stuff because tier IV and AM II magic is good. You won't just be stunning, but nuking as well. Which is what your job is. PUP and BST are useful in Dynamis and Limbus. Hell, a PUP parsed 2nd in damage dealt to Ultima, mainly due to Cannibal blade (and this was with the PUP/WHM standing back and healing, and letting the puppet do all the dps). So while they may not be great for HNM, that's only one small portion of the game. Had several great BST pullers in Dynamis.

But even still, you level the jobs you enjoy. And even if you have to be RDM instead of BST, you can still get that BST piece of gear (provided your LS does points and you saved up). Whereas if you're forced to come as your holy priest instead of your rogue to WoW, and that trinket drops off Leo...

[Lordender]

I think the major problems that plague modern day endgame FFXI is the fact there are more people involved with the popular endgame content than SE can keep up with due to the amounts of new level 75 hitting the end game scene. Ground HNM are very overcrowded especially with entire LS's jumping servers, shells fighting for limbus+dynamis zones. Sea will see a major jump in popularity whenever AV is "fixed".

SE doesn't really have to put HNM's in with ground breaking drops if we use Khim and Tiamat as examples, those mobs both drop useful items(when they decide to drop). The popularity of Khim and Tiamat have people out there a full 10-20+ hrs before they can pop on my server these days, those mobs are a success in SE's eyes.

I personally would like to see more creative ways to spread out the endgame community with a lot more than 3 HNM per expansion. Salvage helped out the game a lot but it doesn't do anything for people who want HNM items like Gaiters, "Hott E. Clarie", Ridill, D.ring.

[Correction]

The over-arching point still stands. MMOs in the current-age are funfair rides, and unfortunately there isn't room for everyone. In WoW that means no Ret pallys, Mutilate Rogues, etc etc. at PvE progression endgame. In FFXI that means leave your BSTs, PUPs etc. etc. at the same level of play. Just because you bring them with you to merit and complete quests doesn't mean you bring them with you to the challenging parts of the game where failure is expensive and painful. In this aspect neither game has an advantage over the other.

Whereas if you're forced to come as your holy priest instead of your rogue to WoW, and that trinket drops off Leo...

This is a problem with your guild rules regarding alts and not WoW's core class/encounter design. The difference is important when comparing the two games.

[Siatdiat]

Kenji it really just sounds like you played WoW with shitty people.

[Kenji]

The over-arching point still stands. MMOs in the current-age are funfair rides, and unfortunately there isn't room for everyone. In WoW that means no Ret pallys, Mutilate Rogues, etc etc. at PvE progression endgame. In FFXI that means leave your BSTs, PUPs etc. etc. at the same level of play. Just because you bring them with you to merit and complete quests doesn't mean you bring them with you to the challenging parts of the game where failure is expensive and painful. In this aspect neither game has an advantage over the other.

BSTs and PUPs are fine in Dynamis and Limbus, which are end-game activities. HNM is not the be-all end-all. In fact, they're even desired there. BST for Dynamis pulls, PUP for Ultima dps. At least, that's what I've heard so far. And more enhancements to PUP are coming.

[quote:amyiu9b4]Whereas if you're forced to come as your holy priest instead of your rogue to WoW, and that trinket drops off Leo...

This is a problem with your guild rules regarding alts and not WoW's core class/encounter design. The difference is important when comparing the two games.[/quote:amyiu9b4]

Really? When bosses need a certain amount of dps, because they'll hit an enrage timer, do you bring a Ret Pally? When something hits really hard, do you bring a prot pally? If you only have 4 healers on, and you need 5, do you persuade a member to log onto their healer alt? Or do you just not raid? WoW raids seem to be very demanding in what classes you bring and what spec they are, at least til you outgear it. So much so, that guilds switch tanks in and out, depending on how many each boss fight needs.

Kenji it really just sounds like you played WoW with shitty people.

I've considered that. So, know any guilds that would take a prot pally and let them main tank? I kid, I kid. That aspect of it wasn't so bad. It's mainly the lack of progression angle. 4 guilds on my server were past kael. 1 was horde, and 3 were alliance.

[Siatdiat]

I've considered that. So, know any guilds that would take a prot pally and let them main tank? I kid, I kid. That aspect of it wasn't so bad. It's mainly the lack of progression angle. 4 guilds on my server were past kael. 1 was horde, and 3 were alliance.

Real life friends guild uses prot pally tanks just b/c they have one who is so good he proved to them that paladin can tank. I myself am arms warrior and people always ask if Ill respec just to run a heroic, its ridiculous. There are people out there that dont suck though just have to meet them.

Edit: just for clarification, I think pve progression is pointless now, all I do is pvp/arena and mess with a priest 19 twink, and play ffxi a bit also. I think WoW is the better game and only tie that binds me to xi is old friends and overall time spent in ffxi.

[Lucavi]

Ground HNM are very overcrowded especially with entire LS's jumping servers, shells fighting for limbus+dynamis zones. Sea will see a major jump in popularity whenever AV is "fixed".

This no longer holds water. 3 Kings were over camped when NA release dropped. 3 Kings were over camped when CoP released. 3 Kings were over camped when ToAU dropped. 3 Kings were over camped when WotG was released. 3 Kings are still overcamped. There's less people playing than in the prime of FFXI and 3 Kings are STILL over camped.

Until you put Adaberk, Mcgriddle, and the rest of the playtoys into a KSNM setting with a comparable droprate to the 3 Kings, you're not going to get people out of the 3 Kings zones. We've already established that SE will absolutely not introduce new NMs with drops that rival the 3 Kings. SE is not Blizzard. They do not progress the game by increasing caps, increasing the difficulty of mobs, and thus, keeping the player moving up the mountain. SE tries to move their endgame laterally by keeping mobs with the same strength (or weaker) abiet with different strats required to beat them. What SE fails to realize is that there is basically no HNM that they've put out there that can't be KC+BW burned into the ground, so no matter what new "tricks" they try, short of either having a particular HNM mob "resist" KC+BW, or jacking the hp of that mob up to disproportionate level, those tricks will always be circumvented.

Not that the new tricks matter -- the gear they place on any new HNM is so pathetic that everyone fights them once or twice for the novelty factor, then crowds back into the Aery. I heard a lot about seveneyes.. until people started actually getting them. Now its back to the lovely flavor of the week drama at Fafhogg.

I've given up on hoping that SE finally wakes up and "gets it". The JP community isn't going anywhere because they'll blindly support SE's MMO endeavors -- its like trying to get Koreans off of their free MMOs and ROs.

Honestly, the more people I talk to, the more its become obvious that the three main reasons many people continue to play are for the community (legit), the storyline (give me a novel series so I can read it instead of waiting for 4-month intervals of 3 new missions), and the fact that for one reason or another, they don't like WoW.

Whether you call it "kiddie" or not, millions of subscriptions don't lie -- the game will go down as far more of a success than FFXI ever will, which is rough because FFXI really has a lot going for it. SE just refuses to admit that their way isn't always the best way, and refuses to place concrete changes in an acceptable frame of time (it took well over 3 years for snarl? Well over 3 years to delete xp penalty on bst? Well over 3 years for a 2-handed adjustment). Hell, they STILL haven't done a damned thing with 3 Kings since introducing rage timers.

[Lordender]

I can only comment on my server's situation, ground hnm got much much worse after ToAU and cross server switching. I camped fafhogg in the old days when more people were playing FFXI, you had the same usual 3-4 LS's camping(one was mine) now in days its 8-10 ls's minimum, around 70-100+ people for day 1 fafnir on off times, if its in NA prime time around 5-10pm est that number will skyrocket to almost 200 people.

Khim and Tiamat are two mobs that don't have fantastic loot pools but they have popular loot pools. The last Khim on Carbuncle had 19hrs left before it had to pop there was already 20 people waiting for it, when it reached 10hours left 85 people were there. Tiamat had 53 people waiting for as it entered its last 10hours starting from midnight. I understand its probably worse on other servers, you could probably throw cerb in there but I havent paid much attention to cerberus. Camp numbers are going to differ depending which server your on.

The point here is Khim and Tiamat items aren't ridill and d.ring quality, but they offer a different kind of loot which shows SE doesn't have to outdate king gear with new HNM's. You have "Holy shit" items that can drop off 3-kings and you have "Useful situtional items" off Tiamat and Khim. I think adding more HNM's with decent/unique loot pools would help out but they have to be a little more creative with their pop conditions because currently SE can't keep up with the increase demand for ground hnm until they add a lot more of them.

[Jerseyprophet]

I'm impressed, this is actually one of the better debates we've had on the subject (which was inevitable at mere mention of WoW during a thread like the OP). Kudos to both sides, and personally, I'm looking foward to reading more.

I often wonder if SE employees ever come here, ever read what is said here. Personally, if I ran a business - which an MMO IS, I'd want to know how to get more customers and make more money, or get customers I once had to shop with me again. The answer is in the posts here.


EDIT: It's trivial, but it always bothered me why they hide information from players. I'm speaking of how much treasure hunter affects drop rates, drop rates, ranged accuracy, ranged attack, evasion, etc.

All of that information is cleared revealed in WoW. That wasn't a "its better" jab at ffxi, but more of a ...why can't they show us that information? Why choose to hide it?

[DrObvious]

BSTs and PUPs are fine in Dynamis and Limbus, which are end-game activities. HNM is not the be-all end-all. In fact, they're even desired there. BST for Dynamis pulls, PUP for Ultima dps. At least, that's what I've heard so far. And more enhancements to PUP are coming.

I'm not sure who's telling you this, but I have never experienced such a thing. Never once have I heard a ls mate say "I wish we had a bst" or a pup. I'm not even sure how a bst puller would work in dynamis because the call beast timer wouldn't allow for a single pet puller throughout, which would nullify any advantage it has over a traditional puller. Nevermind that a smn can do the same thing but without the timer. I know people with bst leveled; they come on other jobs.

It doesn't even matter whether a job is "fine" or not. The point is, or should be, are you more useful on job x or on job y. Whether someone dies because the mob is still alive, or whether you end up wiping on a large pull because your group killed too slowly are real issues that most shells do face. I hate it when people say it, but the truth is that unless you full clear zones, you can always improve, always get more loot. "Leechers" can generally have their slack picked up for them by others, but imagine if every single dd in your shell said "screw it, I'm coming bst because I can" instead of their real job.

[Lucavi]

The same can be said for doing just about anything. Theres a big difference in my LS plowing through proto-ultima in 15 minutes by bringing out best jobs (and begrudgingly, that means I go brd, which is understandable), as opposed to having "fun", and telling everyone to bring whatever they just want to play that night and possibly wiping. Ultima is pretty easy; imagine doing that at Tia, ect.

This game has just as much -- if not more -- of a bias against certain jobs, because you're also factoring in certain job combos. Pld/nin may be accepted at a fight, but Pld/war may not. But lets not forget, you also have the fact that pld can sub every other job in the game, and many with increasingly useless returns. What if a Pld/blm wanted to fight Nidhogg?

You have far more ways to scapegoat and pigeonhole a player into a particular role in FFXI than in WoW, because in WoW, you can at least re-roll your talent trees and make a new build if you find that the hybrid you are pursuing just won't cut it. In FFXI its the same deal -- you have to hop back to the MH, or level up a new sub if you want to be considered seriously for the job. In that respect, claiming that FFXI is more lenient about end-game than WoW is foolhardy -- there are still quite a few jobs that are so stigmatized that most new shells and many veteran ones will still frown upon their use in any event that actually matters.

[Dezzimal]

Job undesireability is mostly a balance issue, there are only so many unique mechanics you can add to a game like FFXI. For the most part every job in FFXI can be classified into one of the following or combination thereof:

Buffer
Debuffer
Damage
Heals
Tank

Depth is added to most classes by fleshing out the buffs and debuffs that they provide. SE really doesn't spend much time looking at damage outputs and job balance issues nor do they seem to care. If blizzard was running FFXI, kraken drks would have been done away with long ago, though some would argue the gil investment warrants the return. There have been some positive adjustments, but major things just go untouched like PUP or BST not really fitting into the endgame scene at all due to lack of damage output and lack of any postive buffs or debuffs that are good enough to encourage bringing at least one of those classes.

Lack of solo content killed FFXI. If you get online at a weird time (sup JP Onry) or there just isn't any desire for your class in a grouped setting you're in for an arduous gameplay experience as a casual player. There wasn't much to do other than log in for dynamis + king camps then log out afterward when I played. Sure you've got merit groups and whatnot, what if nobody is seeking or will take your character into their group? Moogle spin time. I'm at a loss for how to add more interesting solo content for character advancement like campaign without throwing off the balance of grouped content like Fafnir, Dynamis, Limbus.

[Correction]

BSTs and PUPs are fine in Dynamis and Limbus, which are end-game activities.

The key phrase here is 'challenging.' Say in a month or so when the next content patch for FFXI is released and you see a new 18-man challenge waiting in the wings, do you really think said BST or PUP are going to get a slot in the alliance, or will they be forced to change jobs to the more efficient 'core' of min-maxed support/DD/healing for your main tanks? The harsh truth is when you're doing something that neither you nor a million people before you have done before, you leave the B-Team home. It's often worse to get there, fail, then regret not bringing some stronger classes.

If you only have 4 healers on, and you need 5, do you persuade a member to log onto their healer alt? Or do you just not raid? WoW raids seem to be very demanding in what classes you bring and what spec they are, at least til you outgear it. So much so, that guilds switch tanks in and out, depending on how many each boss fight needs.

The alt rules in my guild boil down do this.
Farmed content: You bring your alt when you are asked to bring your alt. Content on farm status costs no DKP anyway
Progression content: You gain bonus DKP if we make you bring your alt, which is rare in since we have a good balance of classes.

The idea is if nothing for your alt drops, your main will pull slightly ahead on DKP for the next kill. Nobody is ever forced to bring their alt 100% of the time. Smart guilds recruit. Sloppy guilds force alts on members. Hence my earlier remark about 'guild rules.' If your main fell 2nd place to your alt in your guild it's not WoW's fault. Blame your guild for not properly recruiting.

I've considered that. So, know any guilds that would take a prot pally and let them main tank?

I don't personally know of a whole lot of guilds, frankly, that use Protadins as main tanks everywhere. Best I've seen with my own eyes so far is a protadin on Gruul. Nevertheless with proper guild support (and that means funding respecs and giving you as much tank gear as they would a prot warrior) Prot paladins are in fact capable of playing a tank role through T6 content. Main tank vs every boss? Likely not. But if you look at the community you will see significant work for Prot pallies.

[Derrida]

I don't know if someone posted this link already, but here is a "fun" interview to Yoichi Wada: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=32093

This is what he says about community and FFXI.

Your company statement says Square Enix intends to become a leading community management company. What do you mean by that, and how does it relate to your games business?
One of our main projects is FFXI, and a lot of people are playing it globally, which means that there is a community for this game that people live in, and that needs to be managed. When a group of people share the same ideas, values and concepts, we regard it as a kind of demographic group, and we would like to make the management of that kind of group a major part of our business strategy.
What we feel is important is catering for them individually. Other companies see a group of one million people there, two million people here, and deal with them as a group of three million. We would like to deal with these groups individually. That's why we place great emphasis on it.
So you feel that the skills you learn from managing an online gaming community are transferable to other areas of business?
If we've managed to maintain a community and make it successful, then those customers are loyal to us. Which in other words means their individual value, the potential profit we can make from each person in the group, is increased as well. Therefore we have to do our best to find out what kind of treatment they really want, what we should provide them with. That would lead to good community management, which can be employed in other types of business strategies.

/ma "Blindna" YoichiWada