FFXI Thinning Out?

[ringthree]

WoW vs. FFXI is so 2005. Both have really good things about them, and really bad things about them. They are also incredibly different, and in many ways the same.

This is what I have learned from years of these threads:
1. People that go to the other games forums to enter the debate are horribly biased. These are the worst fan boys, because they are willing to venture out into foreign territory to spread the faith.

2. It's never as bad/good as it sounds. Exaggeration is the name of the game, and if you try to be realistic those that are willing to engage in extended soliloquy will always win the day.

3. Progression, end-game, raiding, instances, obsolescence and fun all mean different things to different people. Just look at game reviewers. People that review these games only see an amazingly small fraction of the game and game-play then give bold-stamped ratings as if you can even rate a game that has been in perpetual existence for 3+ years. Even on the issues that people can agree on the definitions of, they don't agree on the importance of those issue.

4. What's the freaking point to these threads? FFXI is dying, WoW is dying, all games are dying. There is a Fight Club quote to be had here, but in reality for MMO's both FFXI and WoW are doing amazingly. If you are having fun, you will continue to play. When it is not as fun, you will stop playing.

But in the spirit of this thread here are the most obvious of points that are often missed in the minutiae.
For FFXI: Job System. Fundamentally, one of the best decisions ever made in game design. Creates attachment to one character, and avoids alt-itis. Allows job buyer's remorse without having to reroll. And even though there was some job bias earlier, it has pretty much reduced this to a dull hum because a player can always level another job. Non-bright spots: it takes forever to level in FFXI compared to WoW and then you also need a subjob.

For WoW: Perfected Instancing. Although WoW didn't create the idea of instancing they made it into a system that everyone copies. Instanced zones allows unique experiences, without risk of MPK or mob theft. Instances can be turned into anything that they desire. Non-bright spots: Open world is often fun, and even with the wide open options that instancing provides, Blizzard hasn't actually been very creative with the raid.

So, ultimately, this entire discussion is useless if we don't use it as a way to make suggestions to the developers on how to improve each game. If we just use this space to debate how Einherjar is or is not better than Karakzhan then we really are comparing apples and oranges.

[Gaar]

I played FF for about three years. Wasn't an end-game player, but I did all of sky and a lot of sea. I loved my time in the game and really met some awesome people, but I find WoW to be much more enjoyable.

A few things I like:

No exp penalty for death in WoW. I can't tell you how refreshing this is, after seeing hours of effort wiped out by incompetent parties in FF.

I knew some really cool JPs, but it's sure nice to speak the same language as everyone on the server.

World PvP. Makes the game much more organic and fun.

No RMTs locking down whole sections of the game. This was what really turned me off Final Fantasy, the fact that they only made minimal tweaks when this started happening, and only a year after it was rampant (Uli camps spring to mind). I got tired of years of reading great player suggestions on BG and elsewhere on how to fix things, only to see them ignored. It seemed like SE was almost daring players to quit. I was glad when I finally took them up on it.

The instances are also a nice touch in WoW. I get the sense that Blizz wants as many players as possible to have high-end gear. SE was very clear that they DIDNT want that, which I think is why you still see the king clusterfucks. I feel like everyone has a much better shot at getting high-end gear in WoW. The fact that any mob has somewhat of a chance to drop nice stuff is a good touch, too. I know FF started adding this stuff in ToAU, but the rewards vs. time invested aren't nearly the same as WoW.

Also, it seems like FF is definitely the more Japanese game, in that it's very communal from the get-go. You need a group to accomplish anything. I'm only lv. 58 in WoW, but it's completely different, in that you can solo your way through things (I realize end-game will be similar to FF, though). That's gotta be partly due to a more Western influence.

Still, the community's better in FF. Wow is much more solitary, you're not forced to get to know people, so there's not as much interaction (at least so far in the lower levels). I feel like I'm playing a solo game, whereas in FF, I felt part of a family and really got to know people. But it still wasn't worth playing a broken game. And people can talk all they want about how there's so much to do end-game, but running dynamis or limbus over and over and maybe getting a drop after a year isn't my idea of fun.

[kuronosan]

To those talking about raising level caps:

SE's answer to this is adding new jobs and merits and timesinks. We're going to be staying at 75 for a very long time.

[Kenji]

It's pretty clear you aren't aware of much yet continue to comment on it.

I never claimed omniscience. I generally don't level melee jobs, so I'm not as aware about their weapon issues. Also, I've only recently come back to the game after almost 2 years, so I am still catching up.

I call them as I see them, I don't post here to make new friends.

I had enjoyed debating with you, but if this is how you feel, I will respectfully decline from responding to any of your points in the future. It's one thing to call things like you see them. It's another to disparage someone for disagreeing with you.

Anyway, perhaps the WoW vs. FFXI thing has run it's course for now. Both games appeal to people for different reasons. Both have their flaws and good points. Since I left WoW, I've stopped suggesting things in their forums as well as posting there, and would rather concentrate on doing what I can to improve FFXI.

Sometimes I wonder, if SE likes keeping the number of players level at 500,000. More would mean new servers need to be bought, more maintenance costs, etc.

[Paegan]

I just think instancing would fix all of the end game problems, most of the mobs have bad enough drop rates anyway and they could actually raise the difficulty of the mobs since more people would have the chance to fight them.

Einherjar is "instanced" and doesn't fix anything.

Truer words have never been spoken. I'm a fan of instanced stuff myself but instancing everything won't magically fix everything.

Maybe not everything, but if done properly it would fix a lot of issues. Einherjar is just retarded atm, most people seem to agree on that, but just because they fucked up the implementation of that doesn't mean it wouldn't work if done right.

Since they are unable/unwilling to fix the claim system in this game I can't see any solution other than instancing. Standing around for 3 hours waiting to see who the most/best bots is just plain broken and idiotic.

[Xno Kappa]

99KSNM's "as is" should have a HIGHER drop-rate then their ground HNM counterparts. To think otherwise is retardation beyond reasoning considering how long it takes to collect all those seals.

SE needs to allow people to pool their BS/KS seals and make the KSNM's loot pool the same as their ground HNM counter-parts. This would add a whole new layer of cohesion within an LS with some even saying FUCK YOU to the ground HNM's completely. Getting a drop should be about whether your LS is actually able to kill the HNM, not fucking praying for a claim while others bitch and complain in /say.
zOMG! I just solved the 3 kings problem in 2 minutes, where's my fucking check SE?

[Rags]

Its a waste of time to suggest anything to the Dev team because by the time yo see it implemented its 3 years later. An then its not even what you ask for. Things like Speed belt were asked to be put on more hnm. An those boting it banned. Instead it got switched to a rar/exe item and the speed belt was stuck in a ksnm. The only problem is along with that they made the drop 100 times worse then when it was on K.A. Throw in the fact you have to try and obtain 99 seals. It almost defeats the purpose. Not to mention K.A is still botted for the rar/exe belt and the cloth.

Sure you don't lose any exp in WoW when you die. But factoring out instance runs and PvP. How many times do you actually die in Wow. Maybe once every 10 levels unless you keep going after red quests.I don't remember dieing much in WoW til I hit the 50+ instances.

Will agree that most JPN in FFXI were A#$holes.

PvP equals the same thing at the end of the night. A guy getting pissed and calling his guild or they go get their twinked job to kill you. An then they all hang around your body or the graveyard til you raise. An then they zerg you. Then some are cool they don't do that. They just jump on the WoW forums and cry in your job section and his job section how unbalanced everything is.

RMT are just as big of a pain in WoW as they are in FFXI. The only difference is you never see them in instances for it to really matter. But if yo leveled a low lvl job its painful. 1k party invites just to hear them advertise gold. 1k /whispers advertising gold. They even were doing it when I was a 60 twink and a 70 twink.

In WoW its great that people solo. But it becomes a thorn when these solo players try to do an instances as a team. Its apparent when you do BG runs. Nobody can follow a set plan. Jobs have 0 clue how to assist. How to back up.

[Quicklet]

Let's face it: the MMO genre has been stale for a while now. MMO companies basically mess around with a formula until it sticks, and then they milk it for all it's worth. SE never anticipated FFXI being this successful for this long, and they are keeping the minimum amount of resources necessary to keep the game afloat at this point while they focus their resources on other projects.

The solutions are there, but the motivation on the part of these companies isn't. They will do what they think is going to bring in the dollars, and everything else is secondary (see Vanguard, lol). Chances are, you won't see anything really exciting from MMOs for a while.

[Plow]

FFXI is not dying. How do I know?
Half of every time you go to Limbus, some other LS has killed the Euhvi.
Trying to go into Dynamis? Oops some other LS is doing that one right now.
Want to camp this NM? Sorry you have 6 other people trying to claim.
Want to camp HNM? Claim over 60 other people.
Want to make money off some new item? Sorry the Auction House price has already plummeted due to over stocking.
Want to go Party somewhere or Merit somewhere? Sorry 2 PT where you want to go.

FFXI is not dying, this is how we can tell. You'lle know FFXI is dying when you can do anything in the game with a relatively low amount of competition from others.

Ya know, I was kinda agreeing with the fading out thing especially having leveled lower jobs and all that crap, and thinking how sad it is.


Then I came across this post and was like damn you're right, it's not that it's dying it's that everyone still just stuck in the same few places doing the same shit.


Really... the less people there are the better the game will get, provided you've got the friends to maintain productivity.

[ronin sparthos]

Ya know, I was kinda agreeing with the fading out thing especially having leveled lower jobs and all that crap, and thinking how sad it is.


Then I came across this post and was like damn you're right, it's not that it's dying it's that everyone still just stuck in the same few places doing the same shit.


Really... the less people there are the better the game will get, provided you've got the friends to maintain productivity.

Sometimes less isnt more, when less people play it means your going to have a harder time getting things done without those friends. The nature of this game leads towards more people in everything except kings. If you play and are new, and no ones doing missions how will your progress? It may only be good for people on top already, everyone else is going to have one hell of a ride trying to get to 75. Less people means more depending on your friends to get anything done...

Half of every time you go to Limbus, some other LS has killed the Euhvi.
Trying to go into Dynamis? Oops some other LS is doing that one right now.
Want to camp this NM? Sorry you have 6 other people trying to claim.
Want to camp HNM? Claim over 60 other people.
Want to make money off some new item? Sorry the Auction House price has already plummeted due to over stocking.
Want to go Party somewhere or Merit somewhere? Sorry 2 PT where you want to go.

Most of these things are artificial, RMT try to overstock and they arent real players so that doesnt say much. Anything that doesnt fall under the realm of *common NM that everyone wants* doesnt say much either. Merits/Party are caused by ToAU problems, Dynamis isnt a problem on Lakshmi and neither is Limbus so yeah...

HNM is the only thing imo where you'll see a large turnout and how many of them arent just being dualboxed by someone half the time?

[Lexa]

99KSNM's "as is" should have a HIGHER drop-rate then their ground HNM counterparts. To think otherwise is retardation beyond reasoning considering how long it takes to collect all those seals.

SE needs to allow people to pool their BS/KS seals and make the KSNM's loot pool the same as their ground HNM counter-parts. This would add a whole new layer of cohesion within an LS with some even saying FUCK YOU to the ground HNM's completely. Getting a drop should be about whether your LS is actually able to kill the HNM, not fucking praying for a claim while others bitch and complain in /say.
zOMG! I just solved the 3 kings problem in 2 minutes, where's my fucking check SE?

Hell, I'd settle for the same crummy droprate as they currently have, if they'd only duplicate the loot pools of their HNM counterparts. Crappy chance of drop > Crappy chance of claim + crappy chance of drop + having to wait up to 3 hours for those two crappy chances.

[ronin sparthos]

People would spam SE with bitching about how its too 'easy' to get a Ridill or any Kings drops.

[Kenji]

People would spam SE with bitching about how its too 'easy' to get a Ridill or any Kings drops.

Perhaps. But at this rate, it's something they need to do, to improve endgame. Both for new people and vets. HNM camping is just too ridiculous at the moment.

[ronin sparthos]

Whats funny is, the KS99 forms of HNM are way harder than the real kings. lol

Wyrm > Nidhogg anyday. Lower HP but the aerial wing can really fuck you up.

Chevnik > KB. If your kiters suck or your DDs take too much hate (really easy vs Behemoths) you could get one too many Meteors. Who can forget the suicide meteor too~

Tortuga actually casts magic...

[Kyreth]

In the end, it's about the money. $1 in development gets less $ back for S-E than it did two years ago, three, four. Eventually, it's better for the company to gently nurse the game along rather than try and develop brain-breaking content that attracts new players in droves...cause there isn't any more to get. FFXI is saturating it's market.

That being said, my wish would be for a "development fund".

S-E puts up a few projects they think people want to see moved forward. You can then donate a buck (or two, five-whatever you like) towards work -specifically- on these, with the one getting the most votes (money) getting tasked first, using the money donated. Project developer keeps a running progress report on the project(s) chosen and people can continue to donate. When it's done, a new set of choices is presented.

Think this is lame? A $1/month sorta thing by even 10% of the current population (assuming a conservative population estimate of 400,000) would be nearly half a million yearly in money specifically devoted towards improving the game, in ways directed by the playerbase. Think FFXI could get some fix-ups done with an extra 480K? I do.

[Siatdiat]

In the end, it's about the money. $1 in development gets less $ back for S-E than it did two years ago, three, four. Eventually, it's better for the company to gently nurse the game along rather than try and develop brain-breaking content that attracts new players in droves...cause there isn't any more to get. FFXI is saturating it's market.

That being said, my wish would be for a "development fund".

S-E puts up a few projects they think people want to see moved forward. You can then donate a buck (or two, five-whatever you like) towards work -specifically- on these, with the one getting the most votes (money) getting tasked first, using the money donated. Project developer keeps a running progress report on the project(s) chosen and people can continue to donate. When it's done, a new set of choices is presented.

Think this is lame? A $1/month sorta thing by even 10% of the current population (assuming a conservative population estimate of 400,000) would be nearly half a million yearly in money specifically devoted towards improving the game, in ways directed by the playerbase. Think FFXI could get some fix-ups done with an extra 480K? I do.

They can't get much done with the monthly fees people pay them to play in the first place, nor the price of buying an expansion that obviously little actual effort was put into. I don't think they could do much with 480k besides make something worse than Einherjar.

[Jerseyprophet]

WoW vs. FFXI is so 2005. Both have really good things about them, and really bad things about them. They are also incredibly different, and in many ways the same.

This is what I have learned from years of these threads:
1. People that go to the other games forums to enter the debate are horribly biased. These are the worst fan boys, because they are willing to venture out into foreign territory to spread the faith.

2. It's never as bad/good as it sounds. Exaggeration is the name of the game, and if you try to be realistic those that are willing to engage in extended soliloquy will always win the day.

3. Progression, end-game, raiding, instances, obsolescence and fun all mean different things to different people. Just look at game reviewers. People that review these games only see an amazingly small fraction of the game and game-play then give bold-stamped ratings as if you can even rate a game that has been in perpetual existence for 3+ years. Even on the issues that people can agree on the definitions of, they don't agree on the importance of those issue.

4. What's the freaking point to these threads? FFXI is dying, WoW is dying, all games are dying. There is a Fight Club quote to be had here, but in reality for MMO's both FFXI and WoW are doing amazingly. If you are having fun, you will continue to play. When it is not as fun, you will stop playing.

But in the spirit of this thread here are the most obvious of points that are often missed in the minutiae.
For FFXI: Job System. Fundamentally, one of the best decisions ever made in game design. Creates attachment to one character, and avoids alt-itis. Allows job buyer's remorse without having to reroll. And even though there was some job bias earlier, it has pretty much reduced this to a dull hum because a player can always level another job. Non-bright spots: it takes forever to level in FFXI compared to WoW and then you also need a subjob.

For WoW: Perfected Instancing. Although WoW didn't create the idea of instancing they made it into a system that everyone copies. Instanced zones allows unique experiences, without risk of MPK or mob theft. Instances can be turned into anything that they desire. Non-bright spots: Open world is often fun, and even with the wide open options that instancing provides, Blizzard hasn't actually been very creative with the raid.

So, ultimately, this entire discussion is useless if we don't use it as a way to make suggestions to the developers on how to improve each game. If we just use this space to debate how Einherjar is or is not better than Karakzhan then we really are comparing apples and oranges.

Quoted because its the best post I've ever read, especially considering the topic. Unbiased, and well said. I could not agree with this post any more.


Now my over-opinionated and arrogant words (I didn't say addition or two cents because what Gaar said was perfect. This is seperate).


The friendships made were not worth supporting the favoritism of their more important Japanese players. Nor was it worth standing by and embarrassingly playing ourselves out in front of Square Enix who deliberately ignores their players wishes. It's our game, if you dont like it dont play it -- well, then I wont play it. Fuck you SE. There's other ways to stay in contact with FFXI friends, this forum being one of them. WoW is a new adventure that I've loved more as the days passed on.

If we purchased the game, paid our 12 a month (plus 1$ per extra character...a fee Blizzard doesn't charge....just throwing that out there ), are we not ENTITLED to be able to earn a .dat file the game contains? How many of you have played FFXI for over 2 years, consider yourselves skilled players for the most part, and have made an effort more than once to earn a piece of gear that you do not have? Is that fair? I didn't say we should be GIVEN something, since it'd have no value. BUt these players compete to try, and if it was a CHANCE, eventually more than 10% of the population would have achieved it.

And if it was possible beyond a 1% chance in hell - there wouldn't be threads about people sacraficing friendships for a PCC, Kraken Club or whatever. If we own the fucking game, we own every item in it. Give us a fair fucking chance to earn it.

Needing three years to obtain 1 item is ridiculous and if it doesn't seem it to you, you really need to consider how you prioritize your life.

[ronin sparthos]

Even if people donated money to SE, whats the point? They would continue to fuck up and do whatever they want in regards to patches. The excuse that because the game is 'aging' that they dont need to pump new life into the game is rediculous, the game just launched a new expansion and many other MMOs have gone well longer than 'XI before drying up.

If the game was really dying, they wouldnt have peddled another expansion pack. Whats really the issue is the fact they wanna do whatever they want on their own time at their own pace. FFXI is just starting to look middle-aged and it has alot of kick left in it, but SEs dev team is hellbent on doing things their way no matter what the playerbase has to say about it. 'We think Einherjar is fine in terms of difficulty, no further updates to it will be planned' - SE's dev team.

....and thats the reasoning that causes FFXI to have as much dead content as it already has.

[Jerseyprophet]

Whats really the issue is the fact they wanna do whatever they want on their own time at their own pace

And you just said what I said earlier (as well as many other either jaded FFXI players, ex FFXI players and/or WoW players);

Square-Enix does not listen to their players. That will be their downfall, as it already has started to be.


I may be off here, because I'm repeating what I've heard from a friend who plays EQ2 (and I do not play EQ). He said that EQ's response to the gold farming issues they had was to implement a way for players who wished to purchase gold to do it through THEM officially. If they wanna pay real life money for game money, fine, do it through us. We'll take your money and that destroys IGE or mr. third party from trying to do it themselves.

I know theres more problems than gold farming in both WoW (very minimal) and FFXI (more obvious than a hooker with herpes on her lip), but this is one example how a MMO looks at a problem and does something to FIGHT THE PROBLEM.

SE has banned thousands upon thousands of accounts monthly. They've made shit rare/ex (and in turn lowered drop rates, great fucking thinking, SE, since most players that were forced to BUY the item due to it's impossibility to obtain when the gil sellers ran it now need the rare/ex version for either bragging rights or to make their money back -- hai leaping lizzy/o kote), and yet...........how's Ulli guys? Gil sellers still in sky? Was when I played ( 1.5 years ago - after these changes). Maybe they've gotten their act together....yet, call me crazy, I doubt it.



I should also point out that I didn't buy gil, I've never used a windower, or any third party program. And my gear shows it. I am 300 Clothcraft and never made a-f.u.c.k.i.n.g. dime from it. I was a thief with TH3. The only money I ever made was farming rainbow thread in to cloth in the tree off spiders. That simply kept me in the clear enough to have money to party (food/bolts/shadows). I've never been rich. The best item I ever owned was a scorp harness left to me by a retired thief (miss you Cryss), and a refresh cloak (forget the name already.....man it's been a while) - that was signed by me. Got the cloths to make it from killing Kirin in the LS. 4 years.



In WoW I have 1500 gold, and I've been buying alot of shit. I'm on tier 3 gear (legs/body), mount from Kara, and have the best dagger I could have imo (pvp). 1 year.

REWARD YOUR PLAYERS. They earned it.

[Kenji]

Oh, they do listen. They just don't always get it right. They do, however, take their time updates. Then again, I've noticed that, on a general level, Americans tend to want things *now*. Instant self-gratification. Speaking as an American.

No matter what MMO, the playerbase always whines that the company doesn't listen to them, and that it will be their downfall. Even in WoW, Blizzard does things that makes the playerbase go "WTF?" and ignores the wants of the class forums.

And jersey, SE has actually dealt with the gilseller problem nicely. They are much less prevalant now. Hacking accounts, but pretty much gone from the game. Since FFXI takes so much time to level up, it's a lot of work lost when an account is banned. Some servers, you don't see them at all, even at popular NM camps.

In WoW, they can be lv70 inside of a week easy, so banning doesn't hurt. Not a day went by when I got gold selling tells, invitted into a gold farmer raid to be spammed, or saw them in IF or Org, spamming their gold in trade.