FFXI Thinning Out?

[Kenji]

Things like pankration and chocobo racing were epic failures, it didn't even last more than a few months. Campaign is going to reign king taking up most players free time because of its rewarding exp factor, is it even going to be worth trying to make pankration and chocobo racing more worthwhile?

Before I left, I remember people asking for the ability to raise chocos and race them. Then I read the announcement later, and a lot of people seemed glad SE was listening to them. The idea of raising a choco and racing it never appealed to me, so I never went into it, though.

Bad idea to begin with? Or bad implementation? Should SE have not listened to the playerbase on that?

[Intense]

Bad idea to begin with? Or bad implementation? Should SE have not listened to the playerbase on that?

It was a bad idea, I dont recall ever a phase where people were asking to raise or race chocobo's. I do remember people wanting to be able to call a chocobo from anywhere though.

[ronin sparthos]

People asked for the chocobo raising because it seemed like it'd be a given that you could then use them anywhere that was an outdoor zone.

SE of course, didnt see it that way. They felt you should spend a month raising a bird that would be inferior to a normal rental bird, give or take a color change or 2.

It was a good idea, the racing part was complete garbage. (from the minute i heard you couldnt actually move your bird around and that it was gonna be automated i knew it was dead)

Pankration? Lol, it sounds good on paper but now its actually out in the field its not such a great idea.

[Lordender]

No, its not. I feel they were shitty ideas in the first place and them being released showed SE's distance from knowing the playerbase's interests. Im sure no one would really mind/notice if they were ninja'd OUT of the game.

Thats pretty much my mind set is the fact they released things like pankration/chocobo racing to give players something to mess around with while seeking for exp or just to kill a few hours of time for a casual player. WoTG comes out and offers campaign which is far superior in everyway that I don't think those two events can even come close in popularity.

If everyone and their grandma is rushing to campaign for whatever reason, buffer, finishing a merit point, ranking up, I much rather SE working to make campaign better than trying to breathe life into chocobo racing/pankration.

[BRP]

is it even going to be worth trying to make pankration and chocobo racing more worthwhile?

There needs to be content and there needs to be reward. If the content is semi-fun(which is very subjective) and the reward is something tangible, people will do it.

Adding more levels and abilities to grind in Pankration will at least bring back people who enjoyed it to 50 on two or three monsters.

Chocobo Racing isn't much fun, but is apparently incomplete. There are empty AH slots in each of the beginning areas and the it looked it was desired to allow people to pay something to instant warp to any of the four major towns. If they make some major changes to the racing gameplay itself they could at least win the favor of it's target group of players.

But most importantly, if they add large gil(or exp, but ehm) rewards to both, people will do the grindah there and that gets them money. People are going to need a reason to do these mini-games. If they can play Pokemon or Race chocobos instead of killing some farming monsters for gil drops, they will. Sure, it'll attract gil sellers, but I think I'd prefer seeing gil sellers at the coliseum than anywhere else in the game.

There isn't a racetrack in the world a MMORPG player won't race on for the right carrots. A lesson SE should be applying to more than just mini-games.

What may be a final nail in the coffin for both is the "Fellowship treatment". Add an interesting timesink with some payoff with a good deal of potential then just drop it(or add emotes, that works too).

While SE fixing Chocobo Racing's ridiculous 1-race-a-week was a good thing... the fact that you can't use any new monsters in Pankration, can't summon your chocobo(yet, I hope), and racing or raising having effect 20 years in the past seems to be unlikely makes for a grim forecast. Maybe they'll add jousting or something, but then, it'll probably lack the reward, going full circle.

I dont recall ever a phase where people were asking to raise or race chocobo's.

Before they were added, I saw it a lot, everywhere. It wasn't even phase. A chocobo mini-game is basically a staple of Final Fantasy and many people expected it.


The Japanese(and some people on on BG forums?) will eat this mini-game stuff up and as far as SE is concerned, that is their main market. Adding shit that in the end doesn't matter has no effect on shit that does. Chocobo Raising or Racing or Venture's Roll or Fellowship has not a single thing to do with Einherjar. Einherjar sucks because SE wants it to suck.

[Croaker]

Bad idea to begin with? Or bad implementation? Should SE have not listened to the playerbase on that?

It was a bad idea, I dont recall ever a phase where people were asking to raise or race chocobo's. I do remember people wanting to be able to call a chocobo from anywhere though.

Raising Chocobos is a great idea.

Racing Chocobos is a great idea.

Where they failed is in lack of any kind of reward system for doing it. Imagine if by raising the ultimate chocobo and aquiring 1,000,000 race win points, you could obtain items of actual benefit?

Special map shortcuts They have these in FF12
Ocean Chocobo: Valkurm --> Kazham
Mountain Chocobo: N. Ronf --> Batilla Downs.

Special Choco Equipable items
Brave Mask: Allows Choco to be ridden into dungeons.
Battle Armor: Allows Choco to fight along side you in battle.


If they had any of these things, choco raising would be an amazing success. So its no the event itself that fails, its the rewards.

[Intense]

I dont recall ever a phase where people were asking to raise or race chocobo's.

Before they were added, I saw it a lot, everywhere. It wasn't even phase. A chocobo mini-game is basically a staple of Final Fantasy and many people expected it.

Expected it for the purposes of eventually being able to call out your chocobo pet from out in the field? Yeah, that sounds a lot like what I just said only worded differently I suppose. People wanted to be able to use call a chocobo for convenience and borrowed the old idea from past FF games as a way to relate to SE to give it to them.

But I still maintain that Chocobo Racing and Pankration could go to hell. :]

EDIT:

Special Choco Equipable items
Brave Mask: Allows Choco to be ridden into dungeons.
Battle Armor: Allows Choco to fight along side you in battle.

Oh yeah pet jobs will love that.

[ronin sparthos]

Maybe they'll add jousting or something, but then, it'll probably lack the reward, going full circle.

I just put this thought of 2 people on chocobos and the ballista start music and lol'd. I can see SE pitching this now: 'A new exciting addition for DRG!'

Chocobo Racing could be a good idea if you could win something even as trivial as potions, stacks of nin tools or hell... sneak/vis items. It doesnt have to be something insanely good, but maybe the choco-jockey coats (theres a bunch of colors) that allowed you to call your own chocobos in any outdoor zones would be cool. So you can actually at least get something outta it as a whole and you'll know most people will touch the content.

Edit: Maybe for doing a quest where you bring your bird to the stables and win some races, you get to pick a jockey coat and get the ability to ride steeds in any outdoor areas of your choosing. Something cool people would enjoy, and you'd force people to check out the zones and content.

[Correction]

Hmm, sorry, you'll have to do better.

If you insist.

Druids are decent up through Gruul's, and perhaps Morogrim, but they start to lose power after that.

Shows a fundamental lack of understanding of feral tanking. Bear tanks can be used to tank anything that does not require a shield (i.e. Illidan, Essence of Desire, Kael'Thas).

Pallies are only taken as tanks if you don't have warriors, or you want to hold a bunch of adds (which applies to only a very few bosses). Never as main tank.

Paladin tanks are mandatory for ZA timed runs. Oh look, a paladin main-tanking Gruul: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTrNbgRv1Vo

You're right about warriors being the core tanking class and find themselves able to tank everything where feral/protadin can't, but you see one limitation and assume it's universally true. Don't use words like 'never' unless you really mean it.

Hell, the whole thunderfury, hand of rag issue. They seem to get it right with Atiesh, and then screw up again with the warglaives, where a top guild could farm Illidan for months, and not see them. Along comes a fresh new guild who gets several warglaives in a row.

Warglaives are the first example of WoW using the RNG to determine legendary weapons, but they handled it better as only 2 classes can equip them. Replace 'warglaives' and 'illidan' with 'ridill' and 'fafnir' and you'll see why this scenario is still superior. This is still tangential to the point of 'listen to your customers.'

WoW is a good game, for who it's for. It's not for me. And if you feel I'm picking on it, then you need to re-examine. Because I only pull out the facts.

*cough*

[Kenji]

You really didn't want to go here.

Shows a fundamental lack of understanding of feral tanking. Bear tanks can be used to tank anything that does not require a shield (i.e. Illidan, Essence of Desire, Kael'Thas).

*Can* != *desired.* Warrior tanks are still better. You haven't said anything in regards to that point, yet.

Paladin tanks are mandatory for ZA timed runs. Oh look, a paladin main-tanking Gruul: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTrNbgRv1Vo

You're right about warriors being the core tanking class and find themselves able to tank everything where feral/protadin can't, but you see one limitation and assume it's universally true. Don't use words like 'never' unless you really mean it.

If you had bothered to read my posts, you would have seen that I maintanked several things. My point was never that paladin's couldn't tank. It's that they weren't generally wanted for them, because warriors were better. It can be done, yes. But if you really want your pally tank to get silenced on growth 11, and thus get crushed because he couldn't recast holy shield...

But I'll simply my words in the future, just for you.

For the record, I know some guilds that allowed their pallies to tank higher content. Those pallies had to really gear themselves out the ass to do it. And in those cases, it was either because the guild was all friends and let their friends have the fun they wanted, or the warrior tanks were non-existant or crappily geared. There are very few fights that favor a pally tank. There are a ton more fights that favor a warrior. Especially, on progression fights, why make things more difficult than you need to? Even when I led my guild, way back when we were progressing through kara, I had the warrior tank things like maiden and curator, because it was better for the raid.

The reason why bears lose poweron T5-T6 content, is because they hit the armor cap, and warriors become passively crush-immune. And being crush immune on fast hitting bosses, was the paladin's forte up til this point.

Warglaives are the first example of WoW using the RNG to determine legendary weapons, but they handled it better as only 2 classes can equip them.

Now who doesn't know anything? Thunderfury and Hand of Rag were both dependant upon the RNG. Tell that to all those warriors and rogues with one binding.

Wanna go again? I'd rather not, as this is not really a WoW thread, and has gone there more than it probably should.

[Rags]

When I heard about Chobi breeding I thought it was going to be a good idea. An then I found out later on that you could only call it a few times. Only in special areas. An it was 10 times worse then the rental chobi's. Definitely not what the masses expected when they asked for it thats for sure.

Fellowship was also another one hit wonder. When they first came up with the idea it sounded great. An then S.E put their own twist on it. A lvl cap. Yeah thats understandable. But you could only call it in certain areas. An then it was only out for a few minutes or a few mobs and it vanishes to wait another day to call them.. An now you don't see them out much anymore.

[ronin sparthos]

Fellowship was one of the best ideas ever, it is a SHAME they abandoned it for garbage like Pankration.

[Kenji]

All they need to do, is extend the duration of your fellow up an hour at least, regardless of mobs kill. And even let it hit 70. An extra dps source or a healer, to allow you to solo things occaisonally. I think they just didn't want people to get so solo-minded, as they were afraid it would break the community aspect. They want us to be dependant upon others all the time. Perhaps that works better for the JP, but NA generally have a need to be able to solo things a bit more often. The whole individual vs. group think aspect.

[Correction]

*Can* != *desired.* Warrior tanks are still better. You haven't said anything in regards to that point, yet.

You're right about warriors being the core tanking class and find themselves able to tank everything where feral/protadin can't, but you see one limitation and assume it's universally true. Don't use words like 'never' unless you really mean it.

Durrrrr......

But if you really want your pally tank to get silenced on growth 11, and thus get crushed because he couldn't recast holy shield...

Because Gruul attacks so fast that all the charges get used up during the silence right?

For the record, I know some guilds that allowed their pallies to tank higher content. Those pallies had to really gear themselves out the ass to do it. And in those cases, it was either because the guild was all friends and let their friends have the fun they wanted, or the warrior tanks were non-existant or crappily geared. There are very few fights that favor a pally tank.

Here's where I get to the core of the problem with your characterizations. You freely admit to being able to use your paladin as a tank through t5 content, yet complain that Blizzard has no better a track record of listening to its customer base than SE. The only way for you to be happy is for your Paladin to be able to tank every mob in the game, it seems. Now it's obvious why you prefer FFXI for your tanking fix. Good thing then you had no BRD/NIN tanking or RDM melee aspirations right?

For every one example of Blizzard living up to a promise while seemingly breaking another (prot pally vs. ret. pally dps) I can think of SE breaking ten (RotZ abjurations on Odin vs. the process of entering Odin's chamber). 'pallies had to really gear themselves' is a function of having 3 completely different talent trees with separate itemization requirements. The class is designed to be able to take hits, without completely replacing another tank class. But guess what? In order to make tanking a more dynamic field Blizzard has opted towards encounter design that makes use of specific tank abilities that are exclusive to a particular class. If everything in WoW were 'tank and spank' you'd see Oomkin tanking everything before long and you'd take even more away from the specialness of main tanking in the game. WoW is not about the complete eradication of class specialization in the game. I apologize if this doesn't mesh with your 'I want my tank to be as good as a warrior tank' dreams.

Every reason you come up with for why WoW is 'thinning out' the same way SE is 'thinning out' is unobjective. I get that you were unhappy playing WoW but I fail to see how FFXI is making up for its deficiencies when in this area and every other one you describe, the two games are equally deficient.

I only pull out the facts.

You are pulling out your bad experience as an offspec hybrid as a 'fact' demonstrative of the game's design and community responsiveness as a whole, which is rubbish.

Warglaives are the first example of WoW using purely the RNG to determine legendary weapons, but they handled it better as only 2 classes can equip them.

Is that clear now? A guild that could farm elementium could underman both Garr and Geddon. Once you were on the quest you were guaranteed a legendary in that situation. Warglaives are a 'get it or not' scenario, similar to Ridill. Relative guild ability was irrelevant in obtaining either whereas if you couldn't sucessfully clear BWL as a guild no matter how many bindings you got, you weren't getting a Legendary.

[layoneil]

Fellowship was their PUP Beta. if those guys had any influence they would be improving the final release.

[Kenji]

Warglaives are the first example of WoW using purely the RNG to determine legendary weapons, but they handled it better as only 2 classes can equip them.

So, I call you on something, and you go back and change it. Yet when I say something and you call me on it, you pounce on it and go "Aha! You bad!" Hypocrisy much? But, if we're allowed to go back and make things "clear" then let me put it to you in simple terms:

There are times when Blizzard doesn't listen to their customer base. There are times when SE doesn't. It doesn't make it right for either company. That's the only point I wanted to make in that regard. The exact number of times is irrelevant, as we could go and forth all day, pulling examples out. But this is not a WoW thread. And as I said, Paladin, Druid, and Shaman went 2+ years as just healers, despite their customer base asking for buffs for their other 2 trees so they could be viable there.

And you still misunderstand about the whole paladin issue. I used it as a base for the former issue, because it was what I was most familiar with. Blizzard is still not listening to their player base, because paladins aren't generally accepted as equal tanks to warriors. Talk to any paladin, and if they really know their class, they'll tell you that warriors are still better and that they still need improvements. How many BT/Hyjal clearing guilds use prot pallies to main tank anything?

Now, perhaps that's blizzard's design decision. I can accept that. But I decided that WoW is no longer for me because of that. That is my own personal opinion.

And don't put words in my mouth. I never said WoW was 'thinning out.' If all you can do is hit me with straw men, then you're not as smart as I thought you were. I expect WoW to do just fine without me.

I will, however, use your words:

Once you were on the quest you were guaranteed a legendary in that situation. Warglaives are a 'get it or not' scenario, similar to Ridill. Relative guild ability was irrelevant in obtaining either whereas if you couldn't sucessfully clear BWL as a guild no matter how many bindings you got, you weren't getting a Legendary.

[/quote]

Guaranteed a legendary? Again, have you even played WoW? Before BC, my guild had 20+ sulfuron ingots. A ton of elementium ore. And exactly 0 eyes of rag and 0 bindings. Weren't we guarenteed a legendary? I must talk with Blizzard, because I guess we completely missed that we were owed a legendary, after farming MC and BWL for a year. Regardless of what else was involved, Thunderfury, Hand of Rag, and Warglaives are all dependant upon the Random Number Generator.

That is, ironically, another thing they aren't listening to their customer base on. There's a thread on Elitist Jerks where they even talk about this. They feel that Atiesh was the way to handle a legendary, and wonder why blizzard went back to the RNG. They pretty mutually agree it's a bad idea. So, as I said, Blizzard is just as capable of ignoring what their playerbase wants.

If you want to continue, we can do it in PMs. This is a FFXI thread, not a WoW thread. But somehow, I suspect you'll need to shore up your manly bravado, so you'll post again here anyway. You can't help it.

[Jerseyprophet]

You joined the ranks Kenji, welcome to BG forums. Personally, I'm glad you did - just realize the nature of it all. There's no time outs here. Thick skin and an open mind, my friend.

[Alixana]

I concur that the Atiesh was a great way to handle Legendaries. However, Blizzard, just like another gaming company we know and love, is wont to try to "fix" things that are not broken, and in the process break it.

Anyway, my stance is that Blizzard often listens to their playerbase too much, and Square not enough. In WoW there were far too many times X class was OVER-nerfed and Y class OVER-buffed due to constant whining on the forums, because, when it has come to class balancing, Blizzard has always tended to throw all reason out of the window, at times. Anyone who has played Diablo will know Blizzard is simply living up to their legacy, here. On the other hand, in FFXI some things tend to go unacknowledged and not fixed for years due to sheer negligence to pay attention to the community. A great example is how long is took for DRG, for example, to get any real updates, and meanwhile they are ostracized by the general community for being "lol". Some of it I accept as a difference of cultures, others just....big companies gone bad! I'm really not so sure why it's so hard for either company to gravitate towards some sort of happy medium.

One thing that I must say has disappointed me is that I can't bring my NPC Fellow to anywhere in Aht Urghan or the past. Many have expressed this sentiment, but I LOVED the idea of having an Adventuring Fellow, and then it just.....stops. Sometimes I wonder exactly what kind of "logic" goes on in these people's head. I maybe spent one day in Whitegate being amused by Pankration before I found more productive things to do.

Oh and an edit while you all were discussing tanking....Warlock tanks are the sexiest and you know it! Twin Emps are still my favorite encounter of all time.

Meh, my post is essentially not at all productive, but I'm bored in Jugner waiting for Campaign to start.

[kuronosan]

I've been reading all of your posts Kenji. I think you need to be a little more open-minded with your opinions and less defensive.

[Kenji]

You joined the ranks Kenji, welcome to BG forums. Personally, I'm glad you did - just realize the nature of it all. There's no time outs here. Thick skin and an open mind, my friend.

Truer words were never spoken. Sometimes it's easy to forget.

And kuro, noted. Thanks for saying it in a non-attacking manner. I'll chill for a bit, now.

Just want to re-iterate, that both are good games. Both have their flaws. Neither is dying. But my own personal opinion is that I'd done with WoW and enjoying FFXI. That's the last mention of WoW for me in a FFXI thread for awhile.