FFXI Thinning Out?

[levish]

Part of what I meant when I said "go about it a different way" was, everytime a great idea gets put out, etc, the devs or whoever complain that "it would be too hard to code" or something along those lines. I claim total ignorance to anything involving programming, don't know shit about it. But if there IS a way to make an MMO that CAN have changes implemented without it being "too difficult", they should try that. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the answer to my aformented question is "dont have it on a dead console", lol.

The "dead console" is hardly a limitation, the limitation is the amount of resources they are willing to invest in revamping. judging from their responses they are perfectly happy carrying along as they have been all along and throwing people updates and changes whenever they get to it.

At the very least: EQ1 got a major engine revamp, LoTRO released DX10 graphical improvements and I'm sure there are more than a few others.

The problem is SE doesn't care enough about FFXI to assign more resources to make major changes to FFXI

TBH maybe they are right (SE not investing major resources in FFXI) and they are better off just focusing their development efforts on the next gen MMO

[ringthree]

Really if S.E early on had dropped the console, added a few more ways to exp and stayed ontop of certain issues. They would be giving WoW all they could handle.

I can understand not dropping the console. But whats their excuse for not opening up a few more doors to obtain average exp early on or fixing the countless problems when they were brought about. This right there would have kept more people involved in FFXI and brought new people in without them staring at a screen for 4 hours trying to land a party/make a party.

The party system is the main reason that people here are still playing, in my opinion. The party system forced people to play together, even when they might not have chosen to otherwise. It ingrained in the players that cooperation was the only way to deal with things, and this forced a level of civility that is not found in almost any other game. Even if you did not like someone, a good portion of people sublimated the normal desire to stab people through the internets so that they could achieve their rewards. This system operated at every level of the game from the very beginning. It is not so important now because that ethos is literally part of the game-play, but it was essential to creating the community to begin with.

WoW is the perfect example of why forced partying is good, as much as some people hate it. I have actually seen people mature while playing FFXI because they realized that they couldn't just act like idiots and jerk-offs and expect people to help them.

I am not saying that I think SE meant to create this civil society within the game, but the partying system was a massive contribution to the game, whether you enjoyed the system or not. Forced reliance on other people for just about everything in the game creates a society within the game that will have some level of civility. Without it, there is no societal punishment for being a douche, so the level of civility is much lower, (e.g. WoW).

[Rags]

TBH maybe they are right (SE not investing major resources in FFXI) and they are better off just focusing their development efforts on the next gen MMO

The way they have handled everything in FFXI will most likely hinder their next MMO. With the way S.E approached every problem and every issue. An then throw in the poor lack of communication between themselves and the player base. They are pretty much scaring a large chunk of the player base away.

[ringthree]

The problem is SE doesn't care enough about FFXI to assign more resources to make major changes to FFXI

TBH maybe they are right (SE not investing major resources in FFXI) and they are better off just focusing their development efforts on the next gen MMO

I think you are operating on a very rudimentary understanding of how companies like SE work.

First, if SE didn't "care" about FFXI they would just shut it down. The bottom-line is that they will invest an amount of resources into the game that maintains their profits at an acceptable level. If assigning more resources to the game doesn't increase projected profits by the requisite amount then they will not allocate the resources.

Second, resources in a company like SE are compartmentalized. It's not like they say, "Hey, we need someone to go work on the new PSP FFXIII 14th spin-off. Pull someone from FFXI and get them on it." The new MMO has it's own development team, separate from FFXI completely. Some of the higher ups may move from FFXI to the new MMO but that is more about their own decisions, not about SE internal relocations. The allocation of resources for things like a graphical upgrade/update would much more likely come from internal FFXI reallocations, like moving people from the development team to the do upgrade/update work. The problem for those that want a graphical upgrade/update is that SE likely has decided, and rightfully so, that game development is more important than a graphic upgrade/update.

Ultimately the point is this: SE does care, they care a lot, and it's just idiotic to say that SE is out to get us or that they intentionally do negative things against the player base. They definitely are not perfect, and there was a lot of benign neglect for the first couple of years, but as of late SE has been working much more quickly and efficiently to provide better and enjoyable content. I am not trying to defend all of their actions, but it is obvious that their ethic has completely changed. Of course people will point to the problems with Wings (rushed release for Christmas thus lacking depth in content), or the "slow" response to all of the character thefts (fixes to things as substantial as this don't just appear out of thin air, they have to actually confirm the problem, then develop a solution and in comparison to the way most companies react to this kind of problem, they acted pretty damn swiftly), but the reality is that FFXI is still fun, and that SE is doing a pretty damn good job of giving us a game we want to play.

[Lucavi]

Second, resources in a company like SE are compartmentalized. It's not like they say, "Hey, we need someone to go work on the new PSP FFXIII 14th spin-off. Pull someone from FFXI and get them on it."

Actually quite a few companies do this, if the need arises. Most of the time dev. teams finish one project, get about two weeks off to decompress all of what they've been working on for the past year(s), and then are assigned to another project, but there are instances where in mid-progress of a game where developers and small teams of testers, devs., ect. will be funneled out to other, more "pressing" projects. I know SSBB is a shining example of this, with having a translation team shipped over while already working on another game.

And honestly, are you really suggesting that the majority of the initial staff that worked on the game, and that the majority of the people that worked on the expansions are STILL here? If that's the case, why do updates take even LONGER now than they used to?

SE may be making money off of the game, but more membership = more money. Its not like a Japanese company to sit on what's considered an "acceptable" profit margin, if theres a market to make more money. The reason why SE is "sitting" on it is simply because they've made all the money that they essentially can in their own nation. They've gotten just about all the subscribers that they can in their own nation.

WoW recently rolled over the 10 mil mark, and not simply focused in the US. You try to appeal to a large audience, you get a nice return. Hell, not that I like the idea, because I've met and made some great Japanese friends through FFXI, but I bet the membership would have been higher if SE had simply assigned some servers to be regional, instead of throwing everyone together, leaving the NAs to dig through the trash left behind by the JPs who already had maxed crafts from fishbotting.

Theres a lot SE could still do, but much of it revolves around understanding that just like with their precious Japanese, other people from other nations are paying the same monthly fee to play their game, and with that monthly payment comes a right (on the part of the player) to at the very least voice their opinion on what they feel about the game, and a responsibility (on the part of the company) to at the very least, to listen to that opinion, assuming its funneled through the right channels.

SE only listens to the JP playerbase -- that essentially dooms the game for all non-JP that ever have a problem with it, because at best, you can only hope that some JP has the same issues that you do, and then you have to hope that the JPs get the message out.

They definitely are not perfect, and there was a lot of benign neglect for the first couple of years, but as of late SE has been working much more quickly and efficiently to provide better and enjoyable content.

There are only two things that came even "remotely" quick:

1) The sweeping changes and modifications to Campaign.
2) The new policy to restore lost accounts that were compromised.

The first one is a glossy one, but hopefully began a new trend with SE to actually adjust their content once its released, instead of leaving it out in the sun to rot (pankration? ballista?)

The second one is only a response to an actual crisis -- one that threatens SE's actual bottom dollar.

Ask yourself how "remotely" quick actual job adjustments, new merit categories, weapon balancing, damage balancing, new spell additions, new quests, or events outside of the standard holiday events (which usually consist of the same pairing up with people, chasing down some level 10 enemy in the wild at flee speed, or talking to a few NPCs in the right order for a meager prize) occur. Do those arrive within "reasonable" times? We haven't seen new merits for the core jobs since waaay back in the spring of 06. Is that a "reasonable" period of time for such an important part of the game?

[Kayos]

The problem for those that want a graphical upgrade/update is that SE likely has decided, and rightfully so, that game development is more important than a graphic upgrade/update.

While I agree with the point you are trying to make, I just find this statement laughable considering the current state of FFXI. If game development is thier #1 priority, shouldn't the game show signs of being developed? This lul after a lackluster expansion for almost 3 months now isn't helping prove your point...

[Lordender]

the current state of FFXI. If game development is thier #1 priority, shouldn't the game show signs of being developed? This lul after a lackluster expansion for almost 3 months now isn't helping prove your point...

I would be worried if we don't see any update info between tomorrow and the 1st week of february. I would agree to the point that if you didn't think wings of the goddess opening was lackluster that your in a very very minority group of people because most people were extremely disappointed with the opening.

[Kayos]

On the flip side if they would just release any iota of future update news I believe it would appease most of the player base (obviously depending on the level of epicness vs. fail of the actual news).

[Gulkeeva]

On the flip side if they would just release any iota of future update news I believe it would appease most of the player base (obviously depending on the level of epicness vs. fail of the actual news).

I'm sure they will, like any other game give small previews and info on an update to give people a bit of hope of change, like a roller coaster.

Going up nearing update, riding steady for a bit then falling back down after awhile repeating constantly. That reminds me... my character hasne't seen WOTG yet, or anything outside the moghouse in a year or so... and still paying for it O_o

[Vhess]

An old friend from a LS is studying abroad in Japan, and posted pictures of some drink with FFVII characters on it called 'potion' lol. It was the best gimmick product i've ever seen...and I wanted one heh >.>

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... al+Fantasy

[neochaos]

Ultimately the point is this: SE does care, they care a lot, and it's just idiotic to say that SE is out to get us or that they intentionally do negative things against the player base. They definitely are not perfect, and there was a lot of benign neglect for the first couple of years, but as of late SE has been working much more quickly and efficiently to provide better and enjoyable content. I am not trying to defend all of their actions, but it is obvious that their ethic has completely changed. Of course people will point to the problems with Wings (rushed release for Christmas thus lacking depth in content), or the "slow" response to all of the character thefts (fixes to things as substantial as this don't just appear out of thin air, they have to actually confirm the problem, then develop a solution and in comparison to the way most companies react to this kind of problem, they acted pretty damn swiftly), but the reality is that FFXI is still fun, and that SE is doing a pretty damn good job of giving us a game we want to play.

At this point in the game, they have lost enough subscribers and morale to where if they did care, it wouldn't matter. It WOULD be idiotic for them to throw a lot of resources into fixing this game. As for what I bolded in regards to what you said, that's the whole problem. It's cool that NOW they are beginning to pick up the slack (although the 3 month lack of update notice...yeah), but unfortunately they are a few years and a certain MMO behind them. If SE would have been on a keen edge to make customers happy back in 2004, I'm sure there wouldn't have been that wave of players leaving FF for WoW. And im sure this game would not only be much better at this point, but it'd still have a strong playerbase. That's why my original theory was that a lot of their resources and money were going towards their next MMO, but of course, if as you say, they are 2 entirely seperate parts of the company, then I can easily say the FFXI dev team = mass failure.


Since this was the first time SE delved outside of offline console gaming, FFXI was I assume, a learning experience for them. If you're going to release an MMO, release it simultaneously, or make regional servers. The whole "leaving NA's to pick through the JP trash" in 03 when it was released was something a LOT of people didn't like to begin with. Also, anytime new updates happen we only hear about it first from a japanese magazine or some interview we gotta search out for on the internet. For some god awful reason I guess its JP culture to keep everything new under lock and key instead of talking about the things to come with their customer base.

SE needs to tighten up fast and do a 180 with MMOs if they even want their next MMO to be worth playing the free trial of. On a lighter note about SE, I def can't wait till FFXIII and 13 versus comes out, looks sweet :Q

[Kenji]

Since they have about the same number of subscribers that they did 2 years ago, if they have lost anyone, they've been replaced by new people. Servers numbers of 3000 on average are still what I remember from 2 years ago. I've had several parties in the dunes with people who didn't have subjobs.

So what's happening, is people at the end game, who have consumed everything, become bored with having to wait 3 months. They claim the sky is falling, and make topics like this. Then they leave to try something else. New players come in to replace them. Returning players come in to replace them. The game continues as normal, completely oblivious to the fact that somehow, the world revolves around a few leet bored players.

[Kyreth]

I am not saying that I think SE meant to create this civil society within the game, but the partying system was a massive contribution to the game, whether you enjoyed the system or not. Forced reliance on other people for just about everything in the game creates a society within the game that will have some level of civility. Without it, there is no societal punishment for being a douche, so the level of civility is much lower, (e.g. WoW).

Quoted for truth. Interdependence creates a more polite playerbase.

There's a reason the words "antisocial" and "loner" go together so often. If you have to work together for success, then the playerbase winnows a larger portion of the assholes. The higher you go in FFXI, the more people you need to play nice with to succeed...and it does mean folks learn to interact by necessity. Which is healthy.

At it's most extreme, you can get an MMORPG where strangers will literally keep a line open so you can get help- old-oldschool Gemstone III with it's hardcore death system, we actually had emergency contacts for the clerics so if someone got in trouble we could get someone there, get the body someplace safe, and rez the guy before he lost everything. People who decided to be jerks? It got around, and eventually bad luck happened...and they rotted somewhere, unloved.

[Tulun]

Forced reliance is ultimately flawed, though, as a basic game mechanic and it is definitely a big, big factor in why 11 did not explode as WoW did (console mixing was definitely another big factor). Other MMOs may have had similar issues, I don't personally know.

As far as community goes, 11 is forced to be 'nicer' but there are plenty of pretty abhorent and negative people throughout 11; there are countless examples of this (see: any drama thread). WoW simply has more population, but per capita, it may not necessarily have more or less jerks.
And people who are ding bats may get to the highest level (but they do in 11 anyway, depending on the job they level), but they are far from guaranteed to get any instanced gear in WoW; you have to have a large number of people working together in order to get the 'creme de creme' of gear, just like 11, and if you're a dumbass, you are from guaranteed to get far.

The party system isn't bad, and 11's job system is actually pretty good. The problem is, the best part of the party system is really only apparent at capped events, or end game. And getting to end game is a *RIDICULOUS* process. I could 100% guarantee 11 would have had larger growth if leveling was at the very least a much faster process, or at least a process that could be done reasonably solo.
But they will never fix the grind. They are hell bent on it; it's obvious by almost every single game mechanic they add. And so, 11 caters specifically to, more or less, hardcore MMO gamers. I guess that's fine, but as a marketing tool, you are missing out on a ton of people.

[Kenji]

Forced reliance is ultimately flawed, though, as a basic game mechanic and it is definitely a big, big factor in why 11 did not explode as WoW did (console mixing was definitely another big factor). Other MMOs may have had similar issues, I don't personally know.

Or a bigger percentage of the populace are jerks. What was penny arcade's Greater Internet Dickwad Theory? Since WoW caters to the masses, they get a greater percentage of them.

Any game will have some jerks; you can't build something idiot-proof, after all. But I've noticed less in FFXI. Or rather, a greater percentage are weeded out. In WoW? Who cares if someone dislikes you? Tons of servers, quick to level. Transfer or start over, and no one knows where you went. People actually take the time to point out dicks here, and their rep follows them cross servers.

And getting to end game is a *RIDICULOUS* process. I could 100% guarantee 11 would have had larger growth if leveling was at the very least a much faster process, or at least a process that could be done reasonably solo.
But they will never fix the grind. They are hell bent on it; it's obvious by almost every single game mechanic they add. And so, 11 caters specifically to, more or less, hardcore MMO gamers. I guess that's fine, but as a marketing tool, you are missing out on a ton of people.

They have the majority of the Japenese people, and that's all they seem to care about. Also, FFXI's grind is at the beginning. WoW's grind is at the end. You can ignore WoW's grinding, if you just want to level a char to 70 and skip the rep grinds, the heroic badge grinds, the honor grind, the raid instance grind, etc.

[Rags]

Forced parting is fine when this game was new for the most part. You could always find a party if you lasted long enough or had "THE JOB". I think the lack of secondary exp was a huge mistake on S.E's part. I am not talking about implementing Wows exp gain. But they needed to add something that would help out the downtime while LFG. Sure you could solo an E.P. But you barely survived and had to use up a vast amount of resources. They have done things to help it out. But I feel its too late and not enough especially since the first 3/4 of the exp grind is slower then it was in late 03.

I have had a few bad experience with missions to realize that advancing the story of FFXI shouldn't have to involve 5-15 other people. Players getting ticked and leaving, Players dieing at the wrong time forcing the group to start over or players just up and leaving for some reason. I remember doing a CoP run and the mage just warped out when we made it to the Bc and never said a word. You can suck you can be a douche bag, But when a party needs a mage they will take them regardless of what they did a day prior.

[ringthree]

Treasures of Aht Urhgan release patch: April 18, 2006
Next patch after release: July 25, 2006
Difference: 3 months, 7 days

Wings of the Goddess release patch: November 20, 2008
Today's date: January 31, 2008
Difference: 2 months, 11 days

In general, updates are about 2 and 1/2 months between, but the update after an expansion release is a little longer.

I have been saying this for over a month now, we are not looking at the update until late February or early March. And just to be extra clear, SE never said anything about when the next update or the AV video was going to be released.

[Rags]

Treasures of Aht Urhgan was released April 18, 2006
- Treasures of Aht Urhgan Version Update June 26, 2006
Treasures of Aht Urhgan Update July 25, 2006
Difference 2 months 8 days between release and Version updates


Wings of the Goddess release patch: November 20, 2008
- Today's date: January 31, 2008
Difference: 2 months, 11 days

You forgot to ad when S.E gave us info on the next update. Then again you could use CoP as an argument. Released sept 21, 2004 and then the first version update was Oct 7, 2004, and then Dec 9, 2004. Which is 2 updates in the same amount of time.

[ringthree]

Treasures of Aht Urhgan was released April 18, 2006
- Treasures of Aht Urhgan Version Update June 26, 2006
Treasures of Aht Urhgan Update July 25, 2006
Difference 2 months 8 days between release and Version updates


Wings of the Goddess release patch: November 20, 2008
- Today's date: January 31, 2008
Difference: 2 months, 11 days

You forgot to ad when S.E gave us info on the next update. Then again you could use CoP as an argument. Released sept 21, 2004 and then the first version update was Oct 7, 2004, and then Dec 9, 2004. Which is 2 updates in the same amount of time.

So are you making the argument that they are 3 days behind on the release of the first information on the next version update? Because thats all there was on June 26, 2006. In fact, there was even an information post on June 21, 2006. So *gasp* they are 8 days behind on the first information post about the next version update! (This is before we consider the fact that the holidays were right after the expansion release which just might have delayed this version update a tad.)

People will complain about anything...

[neochaos]

Making an MMO that relies on other's has its pros and cons. I just dislike the fact that almost EVERY aspect of the game relies solely on others. And the few aspects that you CAN solo have primarily shitty rewards. If everyone in FFXI was a class A boy scout, there to help with anything at any given time, then sure, make this game as people-reliant as possible. But unless you got a good group of friends, or a ls thats incredibly helpful, ur fucked. I'm just one of those people who like to play a game and have a bit more control over it.

Treasures of Aht Urhgan release patch: April 18, 2006
Next patch after release: July 25, 2006
Difference: 3 months, 7 days

Wings of the Goddess release patch: November 20, 2008
Today's date: January 31, 2008
Difference: 2 months, 11 days

In general, updates are about 2 and 1/2 months between, but the update after an expansion release is a little longer.

I have been saying this for over a month now, we are not looking at the update until late February or early March. And just to be extra clear, SE never said anything about when the next update or the AV video was going to be released.

As far as that goes, ToAU had a LOT LOT LOT LOT FUCKING more things in it at its release than WotG did. ToAU had 3 tiers of assaults, i forgot if hydra was there from day 1, but at least Cerberus was, you still had a pretty shitty amount of missions at ToAU start, but even so. ToAU gave you a brand new jeuno, new areas to exp, it gave a lot. WotG gives us lolCampaign, no good gear for 70+, no HNMs, no new exp camps. It did give us a bastard child mage and a pretty nifty job that is DNC, but beyond that, my 30 bucks got pissed away. With so little added since the WoTG release, of course we're a bit antsy on wanting an update, even a little tidbit of info. ToAU got away with 3months+ of no update because the expansion kept a lot of people satisfied for at least the 3 months. You could do assaults and get points to get the assault gear. WoTG gives us nothing worthwhile to do, unless you like campaign, which I don't really care much about personally, so WoTG = fail.

And of course SE never said anything about the next update release date or AV video, etc. Why would SE want to do anything other than keep us in the bleak dark as usual?