NIN/DRK Trouble

[Osede]

Blind and Bind are the same hate and it is all VE. Both are low MP, decently fast cast while Blind has a much lower recast. Sleep has decent CE and VE. Kuriyama and Hojo both give lower hate but cost no MP and have lower cast times. In general I would suggest against using Absorb spells, they are the same hate as Blind and Bind, but cost substantially more MP. Essentially if you need to cast Absorb spells, its better to wait the two seconds for Blind to be up again.

I would like to remind that, DRK can't use "BLIND" spell

In my nin/drk experience, if you are in the situation where want the fight going to be fast, /drk won't be able to grab the hate as fast as the hate from DD's output. however if the fight is gonna going to be long, /drk will be a good choice.

As for omega farming, the pot never drop chip for us

oxblood ftw

[Starblaster]

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I've never done this before, but situationally shouldn't a NIN/DRK melee with Souleater for more enmity at the start of a fight? Assuming there's a PLD/NIN co-tank. That would result in high hate for the NIN from melee, and hate for the PLD from curing.

[Churchill]

Generally a good way to restore hate quickly to a PLD tank is to SE Zerg with low delay Katana's while the PLD cures you.

This is hardly on option for most of the stuff you tank though.

[TacoTaru]

Reading through Belkin's LJ (which was a great read) I was wondering if Nin/Drk tanking Proto-Ultima would shoot for a build similar to BahamutV2 if they were going to eat Citadel Buster. Would you even try to add in Light resist gear or would you simply stack all the Damage -% gear you can then put HP where you can't get anything else?

[Seditedi]

Hard to get a light resist set mainly because you don't have a bar-light spell, only light carol.
Best bet is Shell V/Magic Defense Bonus/-% magic damage taken

[Churchill]

And about 1650HP helps. You can get a decent amount of light resist from items like Osode but mainly MDB/-MDMG

[Ashira]

Reading through Belkin's LJ (which was a great read) I was wondering if Nin/Drk tanking Proto-Ultima would shoot for a build similar to BahamutV2 if they were going to eat Citadel Buster. Would you even try to add in Light resist gear or would you simply stack all the Damage -% gear you can then put HP where you can't get anything else?

Go through Kaeko's LJ, probably somewhere in Limbus tagged threads, or maybe Ultima (I don't remember his tags); we did a couple of 6-7 man Ultimas and were ultimately successful. Didn't try Light Resist, went full out HP, he chronicles items and all.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/

The enmity tests are there as well, which we should be able to resume again soon, now that he's finished SCH.

Myself on NIN/DRK; Stun, Bind, Sleep, Kura, Hojo, Utsu, repeat. I recast Utsu when down to 2 shadows almost constantly, it's another nice enmity boost, esp after losing 25 to a blink.. and also a guarantee against double attacks or multi-shadow moves. Aspir when it's up is also a decent CE gain and low MP usage. Abs spells we found are not really all that worth it. Weapon Bash = good (when staff tanking). One of our tanks has taken to using Souleater and then cancelling when Tia flies in those fights, for the enmity boost as we will be taking some unavoidable damage in the air.

Hmm, can't think of much else at the moment; it's so second nature to our tanks at this point, and even, oddly to me even though I rarely do it, that I just kinda .. .

[Aireiya]

A small point is that if the nin is casting the right spells with the right gear and still having problems keeping hate, the most likely reason is that he's taking damage that he shouldn't be. It can be a bit hectic to manage so many spells and keep utsu up at the same time, so there's a small learning curve to be able to keep shadows up while spamming spells.

[Belkin]

Reading through Belkin's LJ (which was a great read) I was wondering if Nin/Drk tanking Proto-Ultima would shoot for a build similar to BahamutV2 if they were going to eat Citadel Buster. Would you even try to add in Light resist gear or would you simply stack all the Damage -% gear you can then put HP where you can't get anything else?

I'm not really familiar with Light Resist gear, but I'm gonna go ahead and say there isn't enough of it to make a worthwhile resist build. I'd just go with a Magic Defense Setup or a full out HP build like Ashira mentioned.

[Kaeko]

Make sure to consider the type of damage you're using when considering which tank is "best".

The LS I'm in, for instance, uses almost all BLM damage with some token TH THFs. TP is heavily limited on the HNM, meaning very few (relatively) bad moves. NIN/DRK performs optimally in this kind of situation. Things that constantly wipe shadows make NIN/DRK a bit harder to use well (though still possible).

In a situation where your DD is coming from primarily DDs, or you're not really focused on TP limiation, I would have to say PLD/NIN is much better.

RDM/NIN can go both ways I think; it's the most versatile tanking job of the 3, but probably the hardest to use. NIN/DRK maintains the VE hate cap the easiest (high VE spammable moves) as well as uses Stun in rotation, RDM hits the CE hate cap the easiest (especially under 2hr), but has issues maintaining VE cap unless spamming Blind (which very few I see on my server use ever); PLD has difficulties maintaining VE cap without using Cure.

Overall though, PLD is really easy to maintain extremely high hate. The others tail off if you stop spamming for even a bit. If going "just by the numbers" on the enmity table, PLD is an inferior tank to RDM/NIN and NIN/DRK; however, in practice it's the easiest to use well in any situation and probably the best overall when gauging all situations.

[ringthree]

Blind and Bind are the same hate and it is all VE. Both are low MP, decently fast cast while Blind has a much lower recast. Sleep has decent CE and VE. Kuriyama and Hojo both give lower hate but cost no MP and have lower cast times. In general I would suggest against using Absorb spells, they are the same hate as Blind and Bind, but cost substantially more MP. Essentially if you need to cast Absorb spells, its better to wait the two seconds for Blind to be up again.

I would like to remind that, DRK can't use "BLIND" spell

In my nin/drk experience, if you are in the situation where want the fight going to be fast, /drk won't be able to grab the hate as fast as the hate from DD's output. however if the fight is gonna going to be long, /drk will be a good choice.

As for omega farming, the pot never drop chip for us

oxblood ftw

LOL Yeah, I was at work when I wrote that, I don't know where it came from. It's Bind that I use, not Blind.

[vagus]

Since we're discussing Nin/Drk. I'm curious what type of gear nin/drk use on Proto-Ultima. The LS I'm in recently got 2 nin/drk (myself being one of them) and we're trying to figure out a good gear setup. Mainly to survive a citadel buster to the face. Lol. Light / Magic Down Gear with Magic Defense or maybe full HP setup.

[Churchill]

I'd show you but I'm in a terrible Party.

Use Arrabiato or Carbonara for food.

Lamia Kaman+1
Merman's Earringx2
Merman's Ringx2
Resolute Belt
Resentment Cape
Kirin's Osode
Seiryu's Kote
Walahra Turban/Genbu's Kabuto
Pluto's Staff
Suzaku's Sune-Ate
+60 Light, +4MDB, -17%MDMG, +80-100HP

Is a good start, depending on your race I guess you may want the +125HP from BQ/Bloodbead too but I generally don't and use Merman's. I feel like I forgot something so if I did etc.

[Secksi]

My Citadel Build was

Cabonara
Kodachi of trials/Tutelary
Lamia Kaman
Flawless Ribbon
Moon Amulet
Cassie/Intruder
Kirin's Osode
Seiryu's Kote
Merman's Ringx2
Resentment Cape
Trance Belt
Koga Hakama
Marine F Boots

+479 HP, +101 Light, -13% MDR

Survived many Citadel before I stopped doing Ultima all together.

[Quixotic]

MP pool should not be a big concern for nin/drk, generally a refresh plus sanction/ballad is enough to keep a constant flow of spells. When I played, my nin/drk spell order was Stun > (Sleep if its a mob where sleeping it doesn't matter) > Bind > Kurayami Ni > Hojo Ni > Jubaku/Elemental > JA if needed > back to Stun. Haste is the most important stat, there should be no downtime in your casting cycle unless you're fighting Ouryu and get slowed.

[Hakamaru]

When I played, my nin/drk spell order was Stun > (Sleep if its a mob where sleeping it doesn't matter) > Bind > Kurayami Ni > Hojo Ni > Jubaku/Elemental > JA if needed > back to Stun.

Needs more Aspir for building CE.

Haste is the most important stat, there should be no downtime in your casting cycle unless you're fighting Ouryu and get slowed.

Ouryu, I'm gravitating more toward NIN/RDM because haste is almost unnecessary for spells with short recasts like Blind and Dispel. When Ouryu nails you with a wing on /RDM, you don't have to stop and wait for an erase. You're fine to keep spamming spells.

[Gengu]

Unless I've been waiting for some sort of SC, or anything like that, I've never had a problem maintaining high hate. I even take off some of my +enmity gear for whatever else I feel is more appropriate in that slot (Melody earring, MDB, etc). It always takes a few seconds to reach a pretty decent hate leveling, but keeping it there has never been a big deal <.>

You could always just find a couple videos to show your friend. Youtube ftw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZIBkazVXnM

[Berdysh]

Since Kaeko and others fleshed out the enmity numbers, I've switched from the typical routine to something like -

Stun -> Sleep -> Hojo -> Kurayami -> Aspir for about four cycles or so, then I'll start alternating between that and Stun -> Bind -> Absorb-MND -> Kurayami -> Hojo -> Poison (depending on the mob, obviously). If I'm going through a period of taking little damage, I'll just stick with the VE cycle (the latter of the two listed) for awhile.

This, I feel maximizes both your CE and your VE, and because you are adding so many spells to your spam cycle, you are able to wear heavy enmity and not be waiting on timers. My normal NIN/DRK gear set is something like 14% gear haste, +35 enmity (though that will change to +16% haste, +37 enmity when lolbees decide to be kind on Usukane Sune-Ate). MP has never been an issue for me with a single Bard doing March/Ballad and while receiving Refresh from a RDM.

It's fantastic hate, and the only other job than can sustain hate as consistently overwhelming is RDM/NIN, in my opinion. And no, that's not a slight on PLD/NIN...use whatever is working for you.

[shaddix]

*****this post is inaccurate***** =s

enmity and haste #s are directly comparable are they not?

if you wear 20% haste, your recast will be up 20% faster. if you wear 20 enm+ you will get 20% more enm from all actions. the enm+ will save mp, also there's less time wasted between when the recast is up and the spell is cast.

i guess though you'd want to gear with mostly haste+ so you don't have to blink for casting utsusemi. blinkmenot fixes this, but obviously you're rarely going to be in this ideal situation.

if you don't have to worry about blinking, and you're deciding solely between enm+ and haste+ you would take the one with the higher number, and if they are even you would take the enm, though you'd likely want to maybe swap some of that out as you get closer to hate cap? since the larger spikes from the enm+ gear will be wasted and haste+ will allow you to hover higher overall, though increasing your mp usage

edit: i do understand you need some gear to cap recast :3

[Churchill]

I did all the math for haste gear vs full emnity gear and as it stands going max haste (I have usukane sune-ate, use Hades Sainti when needed) with emnity everywhere else perform better hatewise. The VE is there more often and the CE is continually being built. With my setup my VE actually outlasts my timers, trying for full emnity however, it does not.