NIN/DRK Trouble

[shaddix]

I must be misunderstanding kaeko's enmity testing then, :/ i will look again

edit, yeah i donno what i was looking at, what i said makes sense for CE but not for VE because of the decay rate

oh it appears that on anything the recast is up before the VE is completely gone then enm+ is superior and if VE is gone by the time the recast is up then haste+ is superior, this mmust be what i was looking at before, anything that is break even with recast and hate decay enm+ and haste+ are equal, anything that the VE decays before recast is up then haste is superior, which is, pretty much everything as nin/drk

[Darcatvar]

I am surprised to see some people do not use souleater/last resort when it is up. It is not less hate then provoke, it is in fact more. Provoke is 1800, souleater/last resort is 2600 combined. On Ouryu if you do get slowed you can just switch to less used spells like absorbs if Erase doesn't come right away then go back to your normal rotation.

You can also use Spirits at start if you can build tp and then swap to earth staff or w/e you may be using. Pop Souleater/Last resort right after and cancel them toss a stun and you have a nice hate spike to start the fight.

[Berdysh]

I did all the math for haste gear vs full emnity gear and as it stands going max haste (I have usukane sune-ate, use Hades Sainti when needed) with emnity everywhere else perform better hatewise. The VE is there more often and the CE is continually being built. With my setup my VE actually outlasts my timers, trying for full emnity however, it does not.

If you have Usukane Sune-Ate, this is definitely true. My math was done without them, instead comparing Yasha Tekko +1/Yasha Sune-Ate +1 vs. Dusk Gloves and Fuma, and the former won over time. Usukane Sune-Ate give you only 1 less enmity than the other pure enmity pieces for those slots, and 5% haste counting Dusk gloves. Freaking bees.

As for SE/LR, I hope everyone uses them. While I do not melee during SE (I find that needlessly risky), it's a good idea to pop both every 6 minutes. Also, if you map out your spam cycles according to your hasted timers and gear-adjusted VE and CE values, you can actually use SE/LR to know roughly where you stand on hate.

[shaddix]

*** >_< this post is also inaccurate **** read my last post in this thread for why i misun derstood :3

oh you know what, since the breakeven point of enm vs haste is at the point where the decay rate matches the recast, then after that point you should start stacking enmity to save mp.

in stun's case the amount of haste you need to break even is 46% on your recast, after that you should be stacking enmity, assuming you have 2x march and haste, you should only need ~11% haste in gear and then you will want to pack on enm+


oh if you have enm merits you'll want less haste gear obviously. in fact, hmm le t me look at afew more #s :3

i made a mistake here and factored in CE as well as VE so check my post further down for better info

[CoronA1979]

Figured I would add my thoughts in as well, although honestly it's just repeating what so many others have already said. If it's a quick fight, you really don't wanna use a NIN/DRK. Somewhat longer fights where the fight is semi controlled, it is a superb tank if played properly. It is very nice when fighting something that isn't immune to Stun. Those random Stuns from a tank are nice when they block TP moves. On long lasting fights, it's pretty much just a race to who hits the hate cap first. At which point it just bounces back n forth unless someone gets hit. In optimal situations, I co tank with this guy, and let me tell you it is not easy to keep up, at all. But I manage, and any competent tank should be able to keep up with there partner imho.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...125_121433.png

My NIN/DRK

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f.../RonasRing.png

With 2x March and Haste, timers are capped and I could probably get away with stacking Enmity in another spot like say Feet, but I sold my Yasha +1's long ago. To lazy to count but that's about + 23-25~ Enmity in gear with capped +Enmity merits. Of course I have an OhShit macro for physical damage mitigation with staff +1 Jinpachi loldarksteelsubligar jelly ring etc but if played right, doesn't have to get used very often. Also carrying a massive stack of Enmity+ setup is good for when you get a hate reset move like roar ~__~

[ringthree]

My Citadel Build was

Cabonara
Kodachi of trials/Tutelary
Lamia Kaman
Flawless Ribbon
Moon Amulet
Cassie/Intruder
Kirin's Osode
Seiryu's Kote
Merman's Ringx2
Resentment Cape
Trance Belt
Koga Hakama
Marine F Boots

+479 HP, +101 Light, -13% MDR

Survived many Citadel before I stopped doing Ultima all together.

Wouldn't a Dark Staff or better yet a Pluto's Staff be better for Citadel Buster? Less HP but more resistance and damage reduction?

[shaddix]

ok how much enm+ are you going to have on you *anyway* that cannot be replaced with haste gear, including merits

since i know nothing about nin equips i'll just say 4 from merits right? and then i'll say 10 from gear that' you're pretty much guaranteed to have on you no matter your haste setup

so that's 14% increase in enm of stun right here:
so 1280 > 1460 VE increase is going to be your base stun
so the point where the recast matches the decay here, 1460/60 is at 24 seconds abouts so you need 46% haste to match the recast to the decay, so 2x march haste is 35 so you need 11 like i said earlier, and once you get those eleven you're going to pack on more enm since that is more mp efficient, if you not having mp problems then ramp the haste up i guess since it will let you hover closer to the 10000 cap for VE

and you know what even though this is optimal, it seems kinda trivial because you'll be having to swap gears for utsusemi, so you might as well go ahead and just cap your recast with equips full time to avoid the blinking, even though that's not really a problem with a good mage

[CoronA1979]

so you might as well go ahead and just cap your recast with equips full time to avoid the blinking, even though that's not really a problem with a good mage

While it's not, that's why in my NIN/DRK screenshot you can see I built a combination of both so I didn't have to bother with the blinking. While a good mage can deal, it doesn't help that's for sure. The only time I blink is when I hit the OhShit macro or unless I am swapping into a elemental resist build.

[Churchill]

I prefer to blink and use gear sets to maximize every situation, one thing to remember is that you gotta press a macro twice a lot of times if using windower macros, or all your rings and stuff may not get swapped.

As far as SE/LR go, I use them at the start for sure, Stun>LR>SE>Weapon Bash, after that I use as needed, for example taking a huge chunk of damage if elegy drops off Tia and he's in MS mode, or eating firagas and damage because you didn't swap gear or it didnt all swap. Using them when you're at capped hate doesn't do as much as when you could have used them when you mess up inevitably.

The other nice thing, and an advantage I see over RDM/NIN, is that Stun>LR>SE>Weapon Bash can be used much like Cover in fights where your hate is either reset or where you can be Terror'd. That stuff happens at the most innopportune times and can save your co-tank or your alliance from wasting time or wiping.

[shaddix]

correct me if i'm wrong here but it seems that you want to run your numbers on stun, under the assumption that you are wearing all the enm+ gear that will not sacrifice haste, and count merits also, and also take into account you will have 35% haste from march/haste. as it seems, if you can reach the point where decay is the same as recast, then enm+ is equal to or better than haste+ at this point, so enm+4 will beat haste+3

so you want to factor in your haste last(excluding magic), enmity first(that doesn't prevent you from using haste slots), and then determine how much haste you need in equips to match the decay with the recast and then make evaluations based on is this number bigger than this number between haste|enm. usukane feet are god in this regard as was mentioned i think


of course all this shit isn't taking into account that you need hp and ele resist builds, so really i'm just talking out my ass

[Secksi]

My Citadel Build was

Cabonara
Kodachi of trials/Tutelary
Lamia Kaman
Flawless Ribbon
Moon Amulet
Cassie/Intruder
Kirin's Osode
Seiryu's Kote
Merman's Ringx2
Resentment Cape
Trance Belt
Koga Hakama
Marine F Boots

+479 HP, +101 Light, -13% MDR

Survived many Citadel before I stopped doing Ultima all together.

Wouldn't a Dark Staff or better yet a Pluto's Staff be better for Citadel Buster? Less HP but more resistance and damage reduction?

The resist is only for the minute chance you somehow actually resist citadel. -%MDR > HP > Light resist IMO.

Coron, I'd drop your belt for Trance if you're getting double march/haste. I personally use Turban/Dusk(Koga)/Fuma for my haste, and Yasha Hakama +1/Trance belt in their respective slots for the extra enmity and hps.

[Not Seditedi]

Secksi is right.
You can't really rely on a resist build for Citadel Buster since it is impossible to hit any high amounts of light resist due to lack of a Barlight spell. Focus on MDB -%TMDA and HP before Light resist. Don't sacrifice any significant amounts of HP or MDB for Light Resist gear.

[fuergrissa]

Can somone go into greter detail about "The point at which decay is the same as recast"? Unless I read the live journal incorrectly, decay occurs on your total VE, not individually on the VE vallues of each action. So your loosing the same amount off of your total for each unit of time, reguardless of how much you add to your total; correct?

My first thought is to equip only enough haste to cap timers, With haste+double march that means you need about 15% correct? (Velocious, B.haid, Fumas and save head for the Arht +1?)then stack enmity in every other possible slot.

[Ferien]

Can somone go into greter detail about "The point at which decay is the same as recast"? Unless I read the live journal incorrectly, decay occurs on your total VE, not individually on the VE vallues of each action. So your loosing the same amount off of your total for each unit of time, reguardless of how much you add to your total; correct?

My first thought is to equip only enough haste to cap timers, With haste+double march that means you need about 15% correct? (Velocious, B.haid, Fumas and save head for the Arht +1?)then stack enmity in every other possible slot.

Correct. More than 15~16% Haste isn't going to help your timers unless you're missing one of the spells.

For Flash and Stun, Haste alone won't allow the VE to stack on top of itself, as the 1280 VE it grants decays in 21.3 (22) seconds, vs the minimum recast (from Haste alone) of 22.5. With some Fast Cast you'll get them matched up, but either way, max Haste/Fast Cast combined with Enmity is always the way to go.

Also, with respect to Haste and Enmity, Haste actually has double the effect of the same amount of Enmity. +50 Enmity gives you 50% more hate, 50% Haste lowers your recast by 50%. A 50% decrease in recast timers actually doubles how often you cast the spell, effectively doubling your hate generation.

[fuergrissa]

For Flash and Stun, Haste alone won't allow the VE to stack on top of itself, as the 1280 VE it grants decays in 21.3 (22) seconds, vs the minimum recast (from Haste alone) of 22.5. With some Fast Cast you'll get them matched up, but either way, max Haste/Fast Cast combined with Enmity is always the way to go.

You answered most of my question, thank you, but in reference to the above comment, that may be true assumign you are doing no other action to accumulate VE over the course of that 22 seconds.

After 22 seconds the amount of VE equivalent to 1 stun is erased, however if durring that 21 seconds following that Stun cast you say, use bind, sleep, aspir, and SE/LR, Then over the course of that 22 secodns the total amount your hate has decayed is still the same, while the total amount accumulated has increased dramatically.

This Is why I dont understand the relavence of this point at which a certain action alone achieves more VE than the overall rate at which VE decays, when your not going to sit there and just do that one action.

If somone were to tell me I'm wrong, and that each action's VE is eroded seperately, IE: Casting 2x stun instantly (CS or something) puts your total VE at 2540, but each stun erodes individualy, hence eroding your hate twice as fast, If this were the case and I'm mistaken, then this point would seem a lot more relevent to me, because then it would be the only means of accumulating VE over time, but the way it is I just dont see it.

[Ferien]

Oh, no, you're absolutely right. With full Haste, Flash and Stun essentially create a base on top of which all VE will stack and accumulate, since it's the total VE that decreases, not each individual action's. Shaddix just misunderstood the concept and posted about it.

[vagus]

Tanked my 2nd HNM yesterday on Nin/Drk, Mr. no stun to get enmity Khimara-Chan. Khimara seemed to move a lot during the fight. At around 50% or so, it started moving toward the blm's. I'm not exactly sure why, this never happened on Tiamat. Bind -> Blind -> Slow -> Paralyze -> Sleep is my rotation. I only have 1 Enmity merit and this is my gear.

Weapon : Terra's Staff
Head : Turban
Neck : Harmonia's Torque
Earring's : Eris' Earring+1
Body : Arhat's Gi+1
Hands : Dusk Gloves
Ring1 : Ebullient Ring
Ring2 : Mermaid Ring
Back : Cerb Mantle
Waist : Warwolf Belt / Swift Belt
Legs : Haidate
Feet : Dusk Leds.
Ranged Slot : Shuriken

I left my Hades Sainti in moghouse and i'm torn between this and the staff. I ate Carbonia and bumped my HP to around 1400. Any type of help would be greatly appreciated. I was tanking with another pld.

-V

[Therin]

As people have said already, unless you're a REALLY good NIN (i.e., Rukenshin or someone comparable) PLDs have more available to their arsenal in terms of hate generation.

If you do the switch, you'll probably notice for a while that your PLDs are holding more than your NINs, but once the NINs have gotten used to tanking it shouldn't be so bad.

There are some mobs that I wouldn't put a NIN on, though (Like Prudence or Khimaira - not saying it can't be done, because it certainly can't, but I'd rather not try).

[Weeks]

In my shell, NIN has always worked better than PLD for Prudence. No /DRK though.

[Secksi]

Tanked my 2nd HNM yesterday on Nin/Drk, Mr. no stun to get enmity Khimara-Chan. Khimara seemed to move a lot during the fight. At around 50% or so, it started moving toward the blm's. I'm not exactly sure why, this never happened on Tiamat. Bind -> Blind -> Slow -> Paralyze -> Sleep is my rotation. I only have 1 Enmity merit and this is my gear.

Weapon : Terra's Staff
Head : Turban
Neck : Harmonia's Torque
Earring's : Eris' Earring+1
Body : Arhat's Gi+1
Hands : Dusk Gloves
Ring1 : Ebullient Ring
Ring2 : Mermaid Ring
Back : Cerb Mantle
Waist : Warwolf Belt / Swift Belt
Legs : Haidate
Feet : Dusk Leds.
Ranged Slot : Shuriken

I left my Hades Sainti in moghouse and i'm torn between this and the staff. I ate Carbonia and bumped my HP to around 1400. Any type of help would be greatly appreciated. I was tanking with another pld.

-V

Staff only for Khim IMO >_> you're gonna take damage. You also were not casting blind as nin/drk. My rotation for Khim is bind/sleep/hojo/kura/repeat, if some timer isn't up move to jubaku/absorb- . Keep ablities for after a particularly shitty dreadstorm.

Khim has horrible fucking tp moves if you're unlucky. You will take a lot of damage sometimes, and if that happens your DD need to know when to back the fuck off. He is my favorite for parry skillups though.