Opinions about circumsicion

[Faris]

Circumscicion is better. Its good for my kids, and i will do it. He wont hate me or it wont effect his life in a negative way whatsoever...Why is it so bad to guide your child? guide him, through culture, religion (OH GOD I DIDNT!) and tradition, i myself arent too fond of tradition, i take the nice bits and leave the rest.

That's fine. I never argued agaisnt religion, culture or tradition in this specific thread. I don't agree with it for different reasons. However, do me a favor and explain the bolded.

I'm not very good with precise words and descriptions, so im quoting a site, why it is better..I hope you didnt just mean the typo -_-

The common view in Britain...
As part of being untaught we take the attitude: If it ain't broken, don't fix it, ie, if there is no immediate problem do nothing. Only circumcise if something goes wrong - often reluctantly as a last resort after painful and prolonged treatment. This is in stark contrast to the rest of healthcare where the motto: Prevention is better than cure is stressed. There is a problem with thinking as we do. When does circumcision become necessary?
There are a few situations where it is clearcut. If there is only a small opening in the foreskin so that passing urine is difficult, or when the foreskin is painful to pull back during an erection or won't return forward again. The latter is an emergency situation needing urgent surgery to avoid really serious consequences.
But there are many other situations where circumcision helps prevent future disease or discomfort. We should seek to prevent problems arising, rather than deal with the problems once they occur. Let us look at some of these, in no particular order.

1 Where the foreskin cannot comfortably be pulled back over the glans (knob) of the penis. Now, up until the age of five or six, many boys cannot retract their foreskins - mums and dads beware - if you try too early you may do some damage. Above the age of six or seven, it is important that boys be taught how to clean under the foreskin, making sure the skin is pulled right back. If your son cannot do that he may need circumcising. Boys frequently forget or deliberately avoid this routine and run into difficulties.

2 If the foreskin cannot easily be moved when the penis becomes hard, or if that causes pain - this is not only a childhood problem. At puberty, as the penis grows and masturbation begins, problems may emerge. Some men have pain on intercourse, which they then try to avoid for that reason. If so, you (and your partner) will benefit from your circumcision just as many boys do. Some men are afraid to admit to this problem, but it is curable by circumcision.

3 Where you and your partner keep getting 'thrush' infections.Some call this 'sexual ping-pong'. One keeps passing it back to the other. Of course, you may first try creams or tablets from your doctor or chemist, but if it keeps coming back, circumcision will cure it. It did for me. The foreskin is a warm and moist incubator under which infections can easily develop.

So as you can see, although things aren't actually broken, they may need fixing to eliminate misery and promote a more comfortable trouble-free life. How long does it take to fix? About 20 minutes!

Are there benefits from circumcision?
There are several:

1 Many older men, who have bladder or prostate gland problems, also develop difficulties with their foreskins due to their surgeon's handling, cleaning, and using instruments. Some of these patients will need circumcising. Afterwards it is often astonishing to find some who have never ever seen their glans (knob) exposed before!

2 Some older men develop cancer of the penis - about 1 in 1000 - fairly rare, but tragic if you or your son are in that small statistic. Infant circumcision gives almost 100% protection, and young adult circumcision also gives a large degree of protection.

3 Cancer of the cervix in women is due to the Human Papilloma Virus. It thrives under and on the foreskin from where it can be transmitted during intercourse. An article in the British Medical Journal in April 2002 suggested that at least 20% of cancer of the cervix would be avoided if all men were circumcised. Surely that alone makes it worth doing?

4 Protection against HIV and AIDS. Another British Medical Journal article in May 2000 suggested that circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract the HIV virus. (It is very important here to say that the risk is still far too high and that condoms and safe sex must be used - this applies also to preventing cancer of the cervix in women who have several partners.)

A BBC television programme in November 2000 showed two Ugandan tribes across the valley from one another. One practised circumcision and had very little AIDS, whereas, it was common in the other tribe, who then also started circumcising. This programme showed how the infection thrived in the lining of the foreskin, making it much easier to pass on.

5 As with HIV, so some protection exists against other sexually transmitted infections. Accordingly, if a condom splits or comes off, there is some protection for the couple. However, the only safe sex is to stick to one partner or abstain.

6 Lots of men, and their partners, prefer the appearance of their penis after circumcision, It is odour-free, it feels cleaner, and they enjoy better sex. Awareness of a good body image is a very important factor in building self confidence.

7 Balanitis is an unpleasant, often recurring, inflammation of the glans. It is quite common and can be prevented by circumcision.

8 Urinary tract infections sometimes occur in babies and can be quite serious. Circumcision in infancy makes it 10 times less likely.

What about my son?
Dads - you are responsible for discussing these matters with your sons as soon as they reach an age when you can communicate with them. And, single mums - so are you, because nobody else will do so. There is no examination of the penis in school medicals.

Your teenage sons, especially the younger ones, will have almost total ignorance. They may secretly be having problems. Maybe they wish they had been circumcised for either body image or medical reasons. Help them to be informed and aware of their options. Don't cop out, there are leaflets available to help you.

You need to check your younger sons (age 5+) and teach them hygiene and be sure all is working properly. Try to cultivate a situation in which they will be comfortable to share any concerns they may have - like soreness. Remind them to pull back their foreskins whenever they pee as it helps to keep the foreskin clean. It also makes it easier to aim and assists them to avoid spraying the toilet - just as circumcision does.

What about infant circumcision?
You need to think about this calmly, because some people are getting angry about it in the USA, even using inflamatory words like 'genital mutilation'. Make sure you are fully informed because you as the parent have the responsibility to make decisions on behalf of your child - like the big decisions about vaccinations, knowing that for long term benefit to the child and others, the pain of the injection and often the fever which follows are worthwhile.

Having read this leaflet, you are in a better position to make decisions. Circumcision can become an emergency, or the foreskin may cause considerable problems, not least when sexual intercourse starts or in older age. Remember, it may be a taboo subject for most people - but it should not be so for you.

You may feel you could help your son avoid some of these problems once and for all by having him circumcised early in life (the best time in the healthy baby is 7-10 days old). Not only is it a simpler procedure, needing no stitches, but he will not remember the event. He will also grow up never knowing anything different. Boys circumcised later in life may find it a more embarrassing experience. For a while afterwards they will feel the sensitivity of the permanently exposed glans, but will gradually adapt to it. Thus, circumcision in babyhood can be a very sensible decision - especially for a single mum with a boy and no man around the house. If you do circumcise your son, you must explain as soon as he is old enough to understand, what happened and why it was done. This helps acceptance and avoids ignorance. (I used to think some of my friends were born with a very different penis from mine until I learned about circumcision at age 13.)

You might equally sensibly decide to wait and see, but do be ready to take action quickly if problems start to arise.

If you are thinking about infant circumcision, there are leaflets describing it in detail. You would need to discuss it with the midwife or doctor before birth to plan it. You may encounter opposition - there is currently an irrational anti-circumcision culture in the medical profession. Remember- it is your choice to do what you think best for your son in the long term. If you have any difficulty arranging circumcision on the NHS, the local Jewish circumciser, (môhel - pronounced 'moil') will often oblige you (as may a Muslim doctor). Some even offer to visit and do it in your home. You can contact the Gilgal Society for a list of circumcising doctors and môhels. The procedure takes only a few minutes.

that is off many sites, http://www.circinfo.com/benefits/bmc.html

[Lockecole7]

Way to put words into my mouth. I'll let my child weather or not they want to choose an irriversable procedure. I don't see how an unbiased view that lets them make a choice later in life means I'm incapable of raising a child.

Circumcision is potentially reversible, although expensive. Obviously the above was purposeful exaggeration to exacerbate my point, I wasnt accusing you of the above. You "not making a choice for your child" is making a choice, its choosing uncircumcised. That's a choice, there's a 99% chance your child will stay with the original decision you chose, as making a decision like cutting your penis at the age of 18 is a little ridiculous for a teenager to handle, ontop of the incredible financial cost/and multiple potential health risks related to the surgery. That is how I view it, so in the end I believe my decision would be better for the overall well-being of my child. In the end my point is, as a parent: NOT MAKING A CHOICE IS STILL MAKING A CHOICE.

as for this:

Same thing I'll do. I won't make any decisions for my child till he's 18. He'll decide whether or not he wants to go to school, whether or not he wants to go to the dentist, doctor, (most likely therapist at this point.) Whether or not he feels like eating his vegetables, going to bed at night, behaving correctly, saying thank you, being respectful to his elders.

This is the kind of mentality that will ruin a child...you dont just give kids that much freedom, they're kids for God's sake, all kids need to be guided, need to be taught, and disciplned. We're not animals. If that was you being sarcastic, then oops.

Oops.

I have a proposition, sans mentioning females, how about all the parents start tattooing and giving their kids piercings instead of leaving this decision to them when they are older. I mean, you're the parent and you need to make these choices for them before they go through such painful procedures. Circumsicion, tattooing, piercings, all of these are comestic procedures, except of course when the first is needed due to complications, so then why circumsicion and not tattooing or piercings for the boy? I'll tell you why, it's because you are arbitrarely choosing to perform surgery on the kid just because you want to, it has little or nothing to do with health reasons.

I was under the impression you had a point in making this topic, now I realize you've just gone off the deep end.

[Plow]

Way to put words into my mouth. I'll let my child weather or not they want to choose an irriversable procedure. I don't see how an unbiased view that lets them make a choice later in life means I'm incapable of raising a child.

Circumcision is potentially reversible, although expensive. Obviously the above was purposeful exaggeration to exacerbate my point, I wasnt accusing you of the above. You "not making a choice for your child" is making a choice, its choosing uncircumcised. That's a choice, there's a 99% chance your child will stay with the original decision you chose, as making a decision like cutting your penis at the age of 18 is a little ridiculous for a teenager to handle, ontop of the incredible financial cost/and multiple potential health risks related to the surgery. That is how I view it, so in the end I believe my decision would be better for the overall well-being of my child. In the end my point is, as a parent: NOT MAKING A CHOICE IS STILL MAKING A CHOICE.

as for this:

Same thing I'll do. I won't make any decisions for my child till he's 18. He'll decide whether or not he wants to go to school, whether or not he wants to go to the dentist, doctor, (most likely therapist at this point.) Whether or not he feels like eating his vegetables, going to bed at night, behaving correctly, saying thank you, being respectful to his elders.

This is the kind of mentality that will ruin a child...you dont just give kids that much freedom, they're kids for God's sake, all kids need to be guided, need to be taught, and disciplned. We're not animals. If that was you being sarcastic, then oops.

Oops.

I have a proposition, sans mentioning females, how about all the parents start tattooing and giving their kids piercings instead of leaving this decision to them when they are older. I mean, you're the parent and you need to make these choices for them before they go through such painful procedures. Circumsicion, tattooing, piercings, all of these are comestic procedures, except of course when the first is needed due to complications, so then why circumsicion and not tattooing or piercings for the boy? I'll tell you why, it's because you are arbitrarely choosing to perform surgery on the kid just because you want to, it has little or nothing to do with health reasons.

I was under the impression you had a point in making this topic, now I realize you've just gone off the deep end.

Wait wait, so, if you make a ridiculous sarcastic argument it's a valid and acceptable argument, if someone makes the exact same ridiculous sarcastic type of statement in the opposite direction, they're going of the deep end? Did you just go all Firas on us?

[Faris]

teehee

[Lockecole7]

First of all I wouldn't be surprised if Kuya wasn't sarcastic in that statement I quoted. My argument wasn't sarcastic though, just the example...which was not my point at all. It lead up to the following, the statement that "not choosing for your child" is somehow being absent of a decision, when I was proving that not acting in your child's life is in fact just as much of a decision as doing something is. Secondly, it was obvious all of the above you wouldn't let your child do in the right state of mind. Obvious sarcasm is stated to show its ridiculousness in order to prove the opposite point. In the example, my sarcasm proved that point. (well to those who get dry humor at least it did.)

Saying you should tattoo and pierce your child when they're young is fucking stupid and does not support his argument via sarcasm. Tattoo's/piercings are not done to promote the health of the child and to alleviate potential issues ahead of time, if anything they would do the opposite for an infant/young child. Regardless of how much people disagree with the above, that is why many parents get their child circumcised, and has been proven in certain situations to do just that.

[Vail]

I'll tell you why, it's because you are arbitrarely choosing to perform surgery on the kid just because you want to, it has little or nothing to do with health reasons

people have listed several health benefits both immediate and preventative gains for being circumcised.

yes some medical reports say otherwise, while others come out saying it's still benefical. that's modern medicine for you. this will go on forever based on things people can find and what they don't find.

The facts are that people will believe in what they believe in, and if that is not good enough reason to make a choice then damn us all to hell. I thought believing in something and sticking to it was a sign of strong character and integrity.

many cultures did things we don't understand why or how. Some things old or dead cultures did was beneficial and somethings we find insanely barbaric. People will always pick and choice which things they believe in should be done for the reasons they find beneficial and often will over-look anything negative against it.

[Faris]

Mom, Dad, I love you for mutilating my little peepee.

I say BG should ban extreme sarcasm. Look at what it did!

EDIT:: dude, Kuya your arguement has absolutely no merit. stop being stubborn.

[Kuya]

I'll get to Locke later, first Firas.


Firas, the site you gave me, sadly, did not cite its sources at all, which makes its statements questionable. You should instead find a site that actually cites sources. It did say some things i agreed with... but some made me do a doubletake.

3 Where you and your partner keep getting 'thrush' infections.Some call this 'sexual ping-pong'. One keeps passing it back to the other. Of course, you may first try creams or tablets from your doctor or chemist, but if it keeps coming back, circumcision will cure it. It did for me. The foreskin is a warm and moist incubator under which infections can easily develop.

The answer is proper hygiene, not adhearing to an exagerated option such as circumsicion.

2 Some older men develop cancer of the penis - about 1 in 1000 - fairly rare, but tragic if you or your son are in that small statistic. Infant circumcision gives almost 100% protection, and young adult circumcision also gives a large degree of protection.

This is false, circumsicion does not give 100% protection and it has already been discused earlier in the thread. You should read the full thread Firas.

3 Cancer of the cervix in women is due to the Human Papilloma Virus. It thrives under and on the foreskin from where it can be transmitted during intercourse. An article in the British Medical Journal in April 2002 suggested that at least 20% of cancer of the cervix would be avoided if all men were circumcised. Surely that alone makes it worth doing?

Once again, proper hygiene, is it so dificult to efectuate proper maintanance on one's penis? Also discused earlier.

4 Protection against HIV and AIDS. Another British Medical Journal article in May 2000 suggested that circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract the HIV virus. (It is very important here to say that the risk is still far too high and that condoms and safe sex must be used - this applies also to preventing cancer of the cervix in women who have several partners.)

Inconclusive, also discused earlier.

5 As with HIV, so some protection exists against other sexually transmitted infections. Accordingly, if a condom splits or comes off, there is some protection for the couple. However, the only safe sex is to stick to one partner or abstain.

What?

6 Lots of men, and their partners, prefer the appearance of their penis after circumcision, It is odour-free, it feels cleaner, and they enjoy better sex. Awareness of a good body image is a very important factor in building self confidence.

And this is where it went downhill. The preference is extremely subjective, and the odour and cleanliness dependent on good hygiene. Why is personal hygiene being replaced with surgery?

7 Balanitis is an unpleasant, often recurring, inflammation of the glans. It is quite common and can be prevented by circumcision.

*sigh* Discused earlier.

8 Urinary tract infections sometimes occur in babies and can be quite serious. Circumcision in infancy makes it 10 times less likely.

lol

Dads - you are responsible for discussing these matters with your sons as soon as they reach an age when you can communicate with them. And, single mums - so are you, because nobody else will do so. There is no examination of the penis in school medicals.

You need to check your younger sons (age 5+) and teach them hygiene and be sure all is working properly. Try to cultivate a situation in which they will be comfortable to share any concerns they may have - like soreness. Remind them to pull back their foreskins whenever they pee as it helps to keep the foreskin clean. It also makes it easier to aim and assists them to avoid spraying the toilet - just as circumcision does.

Agreed.

You need to think about this calmly, because some people are getting angry about it in the USA, even using inflamatory words like 'genital mutilation'. Make sure you are fully informed because you as the parent have the responsibility to make decisions on behalf of your child - like the big decisions about vaccinations, knowing that for long term benefit to the child and others, the pain of the injection and often the fever which follows are worthwhile.

Vaccination=circumsicion? This is getting out of hand. Having foreskin isn't a disease.

[Stumblingdrunk]

EDIT:: dude, Kuya your arguement has absolutely no merit. stop being stubborn.

Ok this i can not ignore, because Kuya has had a very good argument throughout this entire thread and its posts like yours that just ignore everything posted in the previous 10 pages that have "no merit"

[Kuya]

First of all I wouldn't be surprised if Kuya wasn't sarcastic in that statement I quoted. My argument wasn't sarcastic though, just the example...which was not my point at all. It lead up to the following, the statement that "not choosing for your child" is somehow being absent of a decision, when I was proving that not acting in your child's life is in fact just as much of a decision as doing something is. Secondly, it was obvious all of the above you wouldn't let your child do in the right state of mind. Obvious sarcasm is stated to show its ridiculousness in order to prove the opposite point. In the example, my sarcasm proved that point. (well to those who get dry humor at least it did.)

Saying you should tattoo and pierce your child when they're young is fucking stupid and does not support his argument via sarcasm. Tattoo's/piercings are not done to promote the health of the child and to alleviate potential issues ahead of time, if anything they would do the opposite for an infant/young child. Regardless of how much people disagree with the above, that is why many parents get their child circumcised, and has been proven in certain situations to do just that.

You're right, my sarcastic post was a stretch. And i now get what you meant with your previous post. You basicaly meant, the decision to not choose to circumsize a child is still a decision, which seems to have little relevance with anything i've sead previous of your response to Kuno. However circumsicion as a preventative surgery is a ridicules idea because it is an exagerated reaction to a small possibility of complication. The foreskin doesn't just randomly give you cancer or an infection. Most of these occurences have more to do with a lack of hygiene, less so for cancer, and in the rare cases we have foreskin that is too small, which is a very legitemate reason to use circumsicion.

The facts are that people will believe in what they believe in, and if that is not good enough reason to make a choice then damn us all to hell. I thought believing in something and sticking to it was a sign of strong character and integrity.

many cultures did things we don't understand why or how. Some things old or dead cultures did was beneficial and somethings we find insanely barbaric. People will always pick and choice which things they believe in should be done for the reasons they find beneficial and often will over-look anything negative against it.

But how does any of this justify citing health benefits that are extremely questionable? If you want you can circumsize in the name of tradition or religion, i still disagree but i find it less abrassive, however, like i've sead, i have a problem with people adhering to medical reasons that are not very factual at all.

[Faris]

gdi, it has some very valid points. This issue is so old that i just picked one site off of(?) many to just give you a fast reply If you are really that concerned about all the citing and hard evidence, i'll need to research something more solid, will take me time, since im doing some work and on BG.

EDIT:: Every site i go to, says:

1 - Protection against local infection in the penis

2 – Infections of the urethra

3 – Protection against cancer of the penis

4 – Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs)

5 – Protection of wives against cervical cancer

Jee, could they all be wrong?

[Stumblingdrunk]

gdi, it has some very valid points. This issue is so old that i just picked one site off of(?) many to just give you a fast reply If you are really that concerned about all the citing and hard evidence, i'll need to research something more solid, will take me time, since im doing some work and on BG.

EDIT:: Every site i go to, says:

1 - Protection against local infection in the penis

2 – Infections of the urethra

3 – Protection against cancer of the penis

4 – Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs)

5 – Protection of wives against cervical cancer

Jee, could they all be wrong?

the short answer is yes

[Faris]

gdi, it has some very valid points. This issue is so old that i just picked one site off of(?) many to just give you a fast reply If you are really that concerned about all the citing and hard evidence, i'll need to research something more solid, will take me time, since im doing some work and on BG.

EDIT:: Every site i go to, says:

1 - Protection against local infection in the penis

2 – Infections of the urethra

3 – Protection against cancer of the penis

4 – Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs)

5 – Protection of wives against cervical cancer

Jee, could they all be wrong?

the short answer is yes

alright fine, i'll go read the whole damn thread thoroughly and come back to see if it is, just to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Beckwin]

I'm just thinking of Tom Cruise telling the morning show guy "I know the history of psychology!"

I like all the medical professionals here who just know better than every other joe schmoe who can also read a book or listen to their doctor.

[Vail]

the short answer is yes

because you want it to be wrong? or because you have something to show?

[Beckwin]

No, because all of the health agencies, medical journals, and studies are full of shit. I wash my dong and I'm fine, that's all you need to know.

[Kuya]

gdi, it has some very valid points. This issue is so old that i just picked one site off of(?) many to just give you a fast reply If you are really that concerned about all the citing and hard evidence, i'll need to research something more solid, will take me time, since im doing some work and on BG.

EDIT:: Every site i go to, says:

1 - Protection against local infection in the penis

2 – Infections of the urethra

3 – Protection against cancer of the penis

4 – Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs)

5 – Protection of wives against cervical cancer

Jee, could they all be wrong?

Let me see if i can make you understand. A problem i have with some of these unprofessional pro-circumsicion sites is that they ignore to mention some information by sheer ignorance or to suit their own agenda.

That is, according to them, circumsicion prevents symptoms A, B, and C. Meaning not being circumsized puts you at a much greater risk of A, B, and C. However, they make it sound like simply having foreskin may lead to A, B, or C, when in reality you need a second factor to create these symptoms, that is, poor hygiene. Many of these sites always seem to ignore mentioning that you need to have foreskin and poor hygiene to actually get most of these symptoms, and not simply be uncut in the first place. What they are doing is munipulating information.

No, because all of the health agencies, medical journals, and studies are full of shit. I wash my dong and I'm fine, that's all you need to know.

Actually, most health agencies say that circumsicion is a unnecesary procedure that is carried out when the situation does not beg its urgency. As Valen said, there are alot of medical journals that argue for and agaisnt circumsicion, it's practicaly a stalemate till more conclusive tests are done. That is, the question of whether circumsicion reliably lowers chances of HIV, even though it is kind of moot seing as how you should be using a condom anyway.

[Stumblingdrunk]

No, because all of the health agencies, medical journals, and studies are full of shit. I wash my dong and I'm fine, that's all you need to know.

the short answer is yes

because you want it to be wrong? or because you have something to show?

Because of all the studies posted so far there has been a lot of information indicating that the studies were inconclusive with all things considered. Wake up people, studies are performed by humans, people with their own motives. Just because i create a study that indicates something does not mean it is scientifically accurate, and there has been significant information posted thus far to show that the studies stating the statistics you quote are misleading

[Faris]

gdi, it has some very valid points. This issue is so old that i just picked one site off of(?) many to just give you a fast reply If you are really that concerned about all the citing and hard evidence, i'll need to research something more solid, will take me time, since im doing some work and on BG.

EDIT:: Every site i go to, says:

1 - Protection against local infection in the penis

2 – Infections of the urethra

3 – Protection against cancer of the penis

4 – Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs)

5 – Protection of wives against cervical cancer

Jee, could they all be wrong?

Let me see if i can make you understand. A problem i have with some of these unprofessional pro-circumsicion sites is that they ignore to mention some information by sheer ignorance or to suit their own agenda.

That is, according to them, circumsicion prevents symptoms A, B, and C. Meaning not being circumsized puts you at a much greater risk of A, B, and C. However, they make it sound like simply having foreskin may lead to A, B, or C, when in reality you need a second factor to create these symptoms, that is, poor hygiene. Many of these sites always seem to ignore mentioning that you need to have foreskin and poor hygiene to actually get most of these symptoms, and not simply be uncut in the first place. What they are doing is munipulating information.

No, because all of the health agencies, medical journals, and studies are full of shit. I wash my dong and I'm fine, that's all you need to know.

Actually, most health agencies say that circumsicion is a unnecesary procedure that is carried out when the situation does not beg its urgency. As Valen said, there are alot of medical journals that argue for and agaisnt circumsicion, it's practicaly a stalemate till more conclusive tests are done. That is, the question of whether circumsicion reliably lowers chances of HIV, even though it is kind of moot seing as how you should be using a condom anyway.

You seriously think the majority of men wash their penises with (warm)water after pissing; and i'm not saying a simple splash of water, you need to wash whats between the penis and the foreskin? c'mon.
As far as what circumsicion is for, we both agree. It helps prevent ABC symptons, right? ok, so now what does that forsekin help in? Other than "increase" risks of "ABCD"

so what happens if you piss in a urinal? you walk to where you wash your hands with your dick dripping piss, slap it on the bowl wash it, then zip up?
and i know for sure in many countries in europe and in north america you dont have washing hoses in toilets like in arab/mulsim countries. So, where is your hygiene there?

[Beckwin]

Sure, in an ideal world, no one has trouble cleaning their junk and everyone wears condoms all the time and no one has tight foreskin and it rains gumdrops. But let's face it, nothing is ideal. I've maintained at least average dental hygiene, complete with regular dental checkups, throughout my childhood and into adulthood, but I've still had several small cavities. You thinking that as if magically, basic hygiene will accomplish what circumcision can is kind of... amusing.

You might try to be claiming some sort of objective motivation for raising the issue, but it really doesn't appear like that to me.