Opinions about circumsicion

[Beckwin]

And Beckwin mentioned that circumsicion had no negatives, so here....

If there's anything easier than washing your dong once or twice a day, I think it's wearing dry underpants. I don't think you want to try to refute that line of reasoning either.

[Beckwin]

It's really...just...not that big of a deal.

Agreed.

[Deejay]

Basically, it comes down to this:

Anyone claiming that there are no potential downsides to circumsicion is full of shit. Same for those claiming there are large downsides.

Anyone claiming that there are no potential downsides to not being circumsized is full of shit. Same for those claiming there are large downsides.

The reality is, it's really not going to matter much either way, and for the vast, vast majority of people, they are happy the way they are. It's pretty much a non-factor in most people's lives. What should be agreed upon is that if you're going to get your son circumsized, you should get an experienced doctor to carry out the procedure to reduce the risk of complications. If you are not going to get your son circumsized, it is important that you teach him proper foreskin care and cleansing techniques to reduce the risk of complications.

And that's about it. It's really...just...not that big of a deal.

/thread

[Rocl]

Basically, it comes down to this:

Anyone claiming that there are no potential downsides to circumsicion is full of shit. Same for those claiming there are large downsides.

Anyone claiming that there are no potential downsides to not being circumsized is full of shit. Same for those claiming there are large downsides.

The reality is, it's really not going to matter much either way, and for the vast, vast majority of people, they are happy the way they are. It's pretty much a non-factor in most people's lives. What should be agreed upon is that if you're going to get your son circumsized, you should get an experienced doctor to carry out the procedure to reduce the risk of complications. If you are not going to get your son circumsized, it is important that you teach him proper foreskin care and cleansing techniques to reduce the risk of complications.

And that's about it. It's really...just...not that big of a deal.

Ding ding ding
We have a winner.

[Kuya]

Yeah, I can't see any reason at all why circumcision might be an OK idea. lol. No one is arguing that it's necessary, but just based on that statement alone, it doesn't seem like a terrible thing to do.

It is becoming tiresome to argue this over and over and over. But sure, if you want to replace good hygiene with amputation of the foreskin, go right ahead.

we also have shitty sex education, probably the shittiest among first world nations. this is highly irrelevant to the discussion because it simply makes no distinction between circumcised and not in terms of transmission/susceptibility.

Shitty sex education is right when many americans honestly believe the things that have already been refuted in this thread.

the irony there made me giggle.

I know i did lol.

So this acknowledges possible difficulties requiring medical intervention in order to maintain proper hygiene. k.

No one has denied this.

Note that many drugs etc aren't even 50-60% effective. We're also looking at vaginal vs. anal, etc. But no, the WHO is entirely wrong and one CDC study on 2,000 urban MSM of specific minority groups proves that.

That's not the point. The problem is the inconclusiveness of the studies and the various and serious holes the research has. And the greater problem is the fact that most people are not aware of this.

Kuya, I don't think anyone is arguing that circumcision is a necessary procedure; people are just saying that it does have some merit (however slight you want to deem it, idc) in terms of hygiene and minor health benefits. And I don't think anyone pro-circ is offended by or in worry for the health of uncut dudes, and the same applies to the decisions they choose to make for their children. And not cutting at an early age is a decision with repercussions: if the child grows up and wants it for cosmetic/body image reasons, he has to go through a lot more pain and recovery, and also if he developed tight foreskin problems at any point, the situation would be the same. As much as you might want it to be the case, you can't take a noble hands-off stance by choosing to not have it done for your child.

People have argued in this thread that circumsicion is better. And it has been demostrated that most benefits that circumsicion may provide are offset by complications circumsicion may also provide. Seing as how complications of circumsicion and the diseases foreskin is accused of are about the same in the percentage scale. And the pain the newborn feels will be the same as the adult feels, barring the slower recovery of the adult and the ability of the adult to resist pain better. The only argument for that has been that the infant won't remember, but regardless you are causing pain. Why justify it this way?

As i've already said, i am somewhat ok with the reason such as:

1- You want your son to look like you.
2-It is tradition.
3-It is religion.

Even though i still disagree with infant circumsicion. But please, in terms of health the positives are in great question. I don't think the people in question need to try and beg at the laps of science to justify circumsicion. But in essence, i bet most of the people here did not know that what circumsicion is lauded for is actually false, so i feel a bit justified in that sense for making the thread.

[Beckwin]

Honestly I think South Park explained circumcision best: "it's easier to clean and it makes it look bigger". Of course it doesn't make you AIDS-proof.

I've been aware for awhile that a lot of the rest of the world doesn't do it so commonly, and it's not like England is suffering massive penile disease epidemics. Not hard to put two and two together.

[Khamsin]

Sure, in an ideal world, no one has trouble cleaning their junk and everyone wears condoms all the time and no one has tight foreskin and it rains gumdrops. But let's face it, nothing is ideal. I've maintained at least average dental hygiene, complete with regular dental checkups, throughout my childhood and into adulthood, but I've still had several small cavities. You thinking that as if magically, basic hygiene will accomplish what circumcision can is kind of... amusing.

You might try to be claiming some sort of objective motivation for raising the issue, but it really doesn't appear like that to me.

You know, you could have had those teeth painlessly removed before the cavities even developed!

Except we need teeth. We don't need vestigial foreskins.

As for the circumcision and STD stats, be careful how you relate the data. The data saying that circumcision lowers the chance of STDs is an appropriate statistical relationship and not based on improper assumptions of causation. The data saying that despite having the largest percentage of circumcised men, we also have the largest percentage of STDs is an inappropriate statistical relationship based on improper assumptions of causation. Make sure whatever statistical relationships you are referencing are appropriately related, like the circumcision = less STDs one.

[Vail]

http://www.circinfo.net
info website that list all positive and negative effects for circumcision and weight the risk/benefits
the site has over 600 sources of information btw.

the benefits are small, only about 10% of males will really benefit from being circumcised vs not, the number who benefits from not-circ is under 2%. So 88% of problems with the penis don't care either way it seems.

Honestly it's up to the parents to look at their health background and decide which risk/benefits are right for their son.

[Kuya]

From what little i've read of your site Vail...

http://www.circinfo.net/who_in_the_worl ... cised.html

It has so far left a bad taste in my mouth, but i'll keep reading.

Circumcision is one of the most common medical procedures in the world,

Umm, no?

The fact that it is still popular must mean that there is something in it!

...

The USA has, of course, the greatest medical knowledge and medical expertise in the world. In this country, 65-90% of males are circumcised

America has the greatest medical knowledge in the world and they do circumcisions! Honestly...

Those who are not circumcised are mainly from cultures in which it is unfamiliar (e.g., Hispanic, as well as many European and Asian).

Incorrect, they are aware of it, they simply chose not to do it in mass.

Such a high rate for elective surgery involving the genitalia suggests important net benefits.

How about we save these assumptions till you present the data?

Since Greeks did not approve of circumcision it shows how great Pythagoras' thirst for knowledge must have been!

I feel like i'm reading a religious site.

I'll keep... reading...

Except we need teeth. We don't need vestigial foreskins.

As for the circumcision and STD stats, be careful how you relate the data. The data saying that circumcision lowers the chance of STDs is an appropriate statistical relationship and not based on improper assumptions of causation. The data saying that despite having the largest percentage of circumcised men, we also have the largest percentage of STDs is an inappropriate statistical relationship based on improper assumptions of causation. Make sure whatever statistical relationships you are referencing are appropriately related, like the circumcision = less STDs one.

I'll ignore the vestigial comment. But i think you meant HIV, as research has already stated many times that AIDs is the current center of the pro circumcision debate, because the difference in STDs rates in general among the circumcised and the uncircomcised is about the same. And as you might have already read, the correlation between uncircumcized and higher HIVs ignores the habits of the subjects and makes the correlation impossible to trust.

[Plow]

Kuya, I would just like to state that I love you for doing all the work in this thread, because I really hate doing a bunch of research and crap to support arguments on online forums.


Too many OP these days take their threads for


You deserve some

[Tyche]

Oddly enough, I've read threads like this 3 times, one here, one on the KI MNK forums, and another somewhere else. Everytime it was initiated by someone who wasn't circumcised that felt the need to justify their foreskin. Also, despite there being an almost 2:1 margin in the poll, the most adamant stances come from the foreskin side. Why do people with foreskin feel such a need to justify their positions while those circumcised, for the most part, could care less. Is it guilt, or maybe trying to satisfy their own insecurities?

And I do appreciate the irony of Kuya picking flaws of a webpage with hundreds of sources on the same page he made a wall of text to point out a correlation that had absolutely no statistics to back it's reasoning.

[Kuya]

Oddly enough, I've read threads like this 3 times, one here, one on the KI MNK forums, and another somewhere else. Everytime it was initiated by someone who wasn't circumcised that felt the need to justify their foreskin. Also, despite there being an almost 2:1 margin in the poll, the most adamant stances come from the foreskin side. Why do people with foreskin feel such a need to justify their positions while those circumcised, for the most part, could care less. Is it guilt, or maybe trying to satisfy their own insecurities?

And I do appreciate the irony of Kuya picking flaws of a webpage with hundreds of sources on the same page he made a wall of text to point out a correlation that had absolutely no statistics to back it's reasoning.

You are currently trying to devalue my entire argument using an attack that is based on trying to imply that my entire point in this thread is invalid because my hurt feelings are getting in the way of my logical reasoning and observational skills, and you do this instead of taking my argument piece by piece and refuting it with your own logic using statistical data to back it up. Nice try.

Also, i presume you did not read said article i posted? Seing as how you stated is has no statistical data when it does in fact have it, not to mention sources. I do not fully agree with a correlation betweeen circumcision and STDs, but it seems you did not even read that.

As for Vail's site, i'm still reading it and actually looking at sources.

[Tyche]

I wasn't refuting the entire article, just the part you felt strongly enough to bold. You admit to not fully agree with the only part of the text wall that you felt strongly enough about to bold. Maybe I fail to see your intentions by bolding it. I'd of assumed you wanted to emphasize the point it was making. How silly of me.

[Kuya]

I wasn't refuting the entire article, just the part you felt strongly enough to bold. You admit to not fully agree with the only part of the text wall that you felt strongly enough about to bold. Maybe I fail to see your intentions by bolding it. I'd of assumed you wanted to emphasize the point it was making. How silly of me.

Once again, read what i already posted, Tyche.

What i meant was, that circumsicion is then not quite the preventative measure for STDs as many mistakenly believe.

Not that circumcision leads to more STDs, as the article may lead you to believe, that is what i used that bolded part for. And in that same token i bolded it to catch people's attention, so, presumebly, they would read the rest of it to see if it had any justification.

[Atlasion]

Oddly enough, I've read threads like this 3 times, one here, one on the KI MNK forums, and another somewhere else. Everytime it was initiated by someone who wasn't circumcised that felt the need to justify their foreskin. Also, despite there being an almost 2:1 margin in the poll, the most adamant stances come from the foreskin side. Why do people with foreskin feel such a need to justify their positions while those circumcised, for the most part, could care less. Is it guilt, or maybe trying to satisfy their own insecurities?

And I do appreciate the irony of Kuya picking flaws of a webpage with hundreds of sources on the same page he made a wall of text to point out a correlation that had absolutely no statistics to back it's reasoning.

Ok, I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread. But is this the first time the "insecurity" card has been pulled in 14 pages about penises?

[Elcura]

Oddly enough, I've read threads like this 3 times, one here, one on the KI MNK forums, and another somewhere else. Everytime it was initiated by someone who wasn't circumcised that felt the need to justify their foreskin. Also, despite there being an almost 2:1 margin in the poll, the most adamant stances come from the foreskin side. Why do people with foreskin feel such a need to justify their positions while those circumcised, for the most part, could care less. Is it guilt, or maybe trying to satisfy their own insecurities?

And I do appreciate the irony of Kuya picking flaws of a webpage with hundreds of sources on the same page he made a wall of text to point out a correlation that had absolutely no statistics to back it's reasoning.

Ok, I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread. But is this the first time the "insecurity" card has been pulled in 14 pages about penises?

Absolutely.

[Rocl]

This thread doesn't even matter because none of you will have a kid to circumsize.

That's right I'm saying either you won't bone a chick or you'll abort it right away.

Wait what

[Tyche]

Or they'll have a girl

[Atlasion]

Or they'll have a girl

I don't see the female circumsicion thread being this fun.

[Tyche]

Trade circumcision to breast enhancement and it may be. Would I let my daughter get a boob job? hmmm.