Puppetmaster merits!

[Suiram]

Okay, so now I'm really curious. What attachments did you use when you got 1571, and what is automaton's INT with the frame/attachment/maneuvers you used? My PUP is level 1, but mostly I'm just trying to figure out how fire got up that high from an automaton.

tbh I'm suspecting firesday/weather.

Yeah, but even assuming that I can't see how an automaton gets up that high with only 76 INT, even on puddings. That's why I'm asking because I don't know much about PUP, maybe certain heads/frames get more.

[DragonCloud64]

Okay, so now I'm really curious. What attachments did you use when you got 1571, and what is automaton's INT with the frame/attachment/maneuvers you used? My PUP is level 1, but mostly I'm just trying to figure out how fire got up that high from an automaton.

tbh I'm suspecting firesday/weather.

No firesday or fire weather, it's the magic of ice maker. You can control when they cast but not as much what they cast. You can however decide if they cast a nuke/enfeeble/drainaspir though you have to use certain manuevers. But as far as nukes go, they either cast what the mob is weak to or the highest spell they have, depending on what attachments your using. Those numbers are with all the Magic Attack Attachments on.

[Suiram]

I've been looking at this, and unless I'm doing the math wrong, without Fire potency merits it'd be pretty difficult for even a very well-geared BLM to hit that with a Fire IV on pudding. I propose a new standard for BLM epeen, called the Lobo Metric, of getting a 1572 or higher non-MBed Fire IV on an Ebony Pudding at the regular camp.

Edit: No outside buffs like etude, wizard roll, or diffusioned memento mori either, has to be solo.

[Lotan]

My calculations... Feel free to correct where I'm wrong...

Loudspeaker I(Attachment) = 5 magic attk bonus +5 per ice maneuver(+20 max)
Loudspekaer II(Attachment) = 10 magic attk bonus +5 per ice maneuver(+25 max)
Ice Maker(Attachment) = 20 magic attk bonus per ice maneuver and removes all ice maneuvers(60 max)

For those who don't know, it's possible to have 3 active maneuvers at once.

Optimization(Merit) is 5 magic attk bonus per rank(15 max)

Mana Channeler and Optic fiber may have a minimal increase too(I don't remember off the top of my head)

If you add those 4 things up you get a 120 magic attack bonus.

It should be noted before the PUPs of the world start declaring themselves the best nukers that there are a ton of limitations on the BLM PUP:

Weaker def than a BLM
Weak/Useless stoneskin(Ability, not spell)
24 second recast timer that's shared by all spells
No Stun, no grav, etc.
etc etc.

They do on the other hand have the advantage of almost infinite mp.

As far as merits go, I went the route of Optimization over Fine Tuning. Accy seems to be less of an issue since the skill patch, but I don't do a lot of big mobs, so maybe it would help there.

Lotan

[Khamsin]

I've been looking at this, and unless I'm doing the math wrong, without Fire potency merits it'd be pretty difficult for even a very well-geared BLM to hit that with a Fire IV on pudding. I propose a new standard for BLM epeen, called the Lobo Metric, of getting a 1572 or higher non-MBed Fire IV on an Ebony Pudding at the regular camp.

Edit: No outside buffs like etude, wizard roll, or diffusioned memento mori either, has to be solo.

If I hurry up and skill up my BLM head to the new skill cap and do an epeen Blizzard IV, can I have a Dreizehn Metric?

[Sargas]

I was kinda doubting the 85-90% thing myself, so I was looking at the numbers and asking Khamsin as well. Just to confirm what he said, and ignoring resists/macc, if you used Loudspeaker II with 3 ice maneuvers (INT+6, MAB+25) and then consumed those with Ice Maker (MAB+60) would it have 70 INT, MAB+60? Or 76 INT, MAB+85?

The Ice Maker doesn't add MAB. It's a straight damage multiplier in the same way that elemental staves (or weather/day bonuses) are. So in your example the nuke would go off with 76 INT, MAB+25, damage +60%. Bear in mind that Optimization merits boost MAB too.

Mana Channeler and Optic fiber may have a minimal increase too(I don't remember off the top of my head)

Optic Fiber will boost Loudspeaker to 22 MAB and Loudspeaker II to 27 MAB (with 3 ice maneuvers). Mana Channeler is 10 MAB + 10 more for each water maneuver, but increases the recast timer by quite a bit.

[Lotan]

I don't think those are resists as much as they are just under-geared/meritted BLMs doing those numbers. Still though, impressive damage for the puppet.

Eh the Blms weren't undergeared, they had sea capes / dynamis / hmn gear etc. Though i did see a couple of blms worthy of the "most gimped/confused players" thread.

Burst II for 1551 on Flans isn't what I'd call "Good". Nukes aren't ever "slightly resisted". It's either 1/2, or 1/4, etc. The only real possible decrease(Off the top of my head) is earth weather/day kicking in for a -10%/20%. I think mine hits for just under 1800, and I'm fairly AH(No Zenith Mitts or god/sea gear).

I was kinda doubting the 85-90% thing myself, so I was looking at the numbers and asking Khamsin as well. Just to confirm what he said, and ignoring resists/macc, if you used Loudspeaker II with 3 ice maneuvers (INT+6, MAB+25) and then consumed those with Ice Maker (MAB+60) would it have 70 INT, MAB+60? Or 76 INT, MAB+85?

The Ice Maker doesn't add MAB. It's a straight damage multiplier in the same way that elemental staves (or weather/day bonuses) are. So in your example the nuke would go off with 76 INT, MAB+25, damage +60%. Bear in mind that Optimization merits boost MAB too.

Mana Channeler and Optic fiber may have a minimal increase too(I don't remember off the top of my head)

Optic Fiber will boost Loudspeaker to 22 MAB and Loudspeaker II to 27 MAB (with 3 ice maneuvers). Mana Channeler is 10 MAB + 10 more for each water maneuver, but increases the recast timer by quite a bit.

Thanks, I figured I had a few of those wrong. The point being, it's possible to get a pretty sizable increase. It's not possible to do this and spam spells at that level(It takes 20-30 seconds just to get 3 maneuvers up, not even taking overload in to account).

Back on topic, Blizz IV is worth the merit investment I think.

Lotan

[Suiram]

The separate +60% thing makes everything make a whole lot more sense now. With loudspeakers 1 and 2 with 3 maneuvers and 3/3 Optimization, that 60% from Ice Maker is the equivalent of 96 MAB.

I'm serious about the Lobo Metric, too, I'm going to try later to beat it I think lol

[Shuemue]

I've been looking at this, and unless I'm doing the math wrong, without Fire potency merits it'd be pretty difficult for even a very well-geared BLM to hit that with a Fire IV on pudding. I propose a new standard for BLM epeen, called the Lobo Metric, of getting a 1572 or higher non-MBed Fire IV on an Ebony Pudding at the regular camp.

Edit: No outside buffs like etude, wizard roll, or diffusioned memento mori either, has to be solo.

I presume we're not allowed day/weather either then?

[Lishje]

My Pup is now 69, I'm just dieing to get to 75 and merit magic up to try this out.

[Suiram]

I've been looking at this, and unless I'm doing the math wrong, without Fire potency merits it'd be pretty difficult for even a very well-geared BLM to hit that with a Fire IV on pudding. I propose a new standard for BLM epeen, called the Lobo Metric, of getting a 1572 or higher non-MBed Fire IV on an Ebony Pudding at the regular camp.

Edit: No outside buffs like etude, wizard roll, or diffusioned memento mori either, has to be solo.

I presume we're not allowed day/weather either then?

Ya no day/weather, lol Let's say 1729+ with one or the other, and 1886+ with both, if those conditions happen to be present.

[Khamsin]

Well, it's one thing to have the ideal epeen nuke with 3 ice maneuvers, but you can't get 3 more up by the next nuke, and if you try, you'll just end up overloading anyway.

I think a better, more sustainable method would be to use Mana Channeler and Condenser along with Loudspeaker I, II and Ice Maker (or Tranquilizer instead of Loudspeaker I if you wish), and go 2 ice + 1 water. That way, you'll get +20 MAB from Mana Channeler and an increase in delay between nukes so that you have enough time to get up your full maneuvers each time. The Condenser, and the fact that you're doing 2 ice and 1 water instead of 3 ice, will help alleviate overloads.

You won't quite come to the same pinnacle of epeen, but you'll be close. You'd be missing out on 2 INT, 15 MAB from Loudspeaker I/II, and +20% from Ice Maker, but gain +20 MAB from Mana Channeler.

[DragonCloud64]

Next time i'll wait for firesday+fire weather and nail my Karin Obi to Lobo.

[Suiram]

I BEAT THE LOBO CHALLENGE

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4...ometriccr0.jpg

blm > pup thank god

[DragonCloud64]

I BEAT THE LOBO CHALLENGE

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4...ometriccr0.jpg

blm > pup thank god

I see what you did thar :bagel:

[Suiram]

Well it wasn't intended as a knock against PUP, I was legitimately worried for a bit that I wouldn't be able to make it lol

[dyluck]

do you mind posting the gear you used to get that nuke off? I'm guessing novio, sorc ring, and ugga stacked with the usual standard HQ gear right? Also Genie weskit and Z.mitts+1? Also What does your thunder IV do under those conditions? I'm guessing you could break 2k on T-day.

[DragonCloud64]

do you mind posting the gear you used to get that nuke off? I'm guessing novio, sorc ring, and ugga stacked with the usual standard HQ gear right? Also Genie weskit and Z.mitts+1? Also What does your thunder IV do under those conditions? I'm guessing you could break 2k on T-day.

wooosh.

[Meian]

Mana Channeler's problem is that when it wants to start casting Aspir and the delay is fairly bad. I don't remember if it was proven or not if Mana Booster works with Mana Channeler but I used it with Condenser also and Tranq. My damage indeed dropped but for the lesser resist rates on Sky gods (which wasn't much, hopefully the update will indeed increase the attachments). Kirin was just aggrivaating. The nuke casting + Retrieve (confused with smn still) and the nuke still goes off while running is so abusive on kited stuff like Kirin but the resists were fairly common.

Valoredge still dominates endgame more often though than BLM frame.

[Khamsin]

What mobs did you guys cap your automaton magic skill on? I spent a couple hours soloing steelshells in tree on PUP/MNK with Soulsoother and went from 242-247, which is fairly decent, but it's a bit of a walk and the skillups will probably slow down before long.

Are there any convenient locations in the past to skill up, too?