Information on New and Existing Jobs

[ronin sparthos]

Wasnt Titans 2hr called 'Anger of the Land' in a previous FF? That name was always lame... they dont use 'Hellfire' anymore because its was too religious for a worldwide FF <.<

Smn avatars needs individual JTs on each one of them to further help differentiate themselves from one another. Certain avatars need to be specified more for healing, some for physical attacking, some for tanking, some for magical attacking, and still others for plain ol' utility. These need to be a combination of our own job traits, as well as potentially new ones, and the avatars need to each have a particular stat (or set of stats) that are higher than their others. For example:

Titan: HP Boost traits (Tier them just like ours are), Defense Up traits, Auto-regen, resist traits, Killer traits (As a tanking-type, Titan should be able to intimidate certain types of mobs). Titan has enhanced vitality (+10) and strength (+5).

Garuda: Haste traits, Accuracy up traits. Garuda has enhanced Agility (+10) and dexterity (+5)

Ifrit: HP Boost traits, Attack up traits, Auto-regain, Killer traits (Ifrit should be able to intimidate alongside Titan, in line with their front-line roles). Ifrit has enhanced strength (+10) and vitality (+5)

Shiva: Triple attack, Accuracy up traits. Shiva has enhanced dexterity (+10) and agility (+5)

Ramuh: Conserve mp (chance to reduce the mp needs to use all Ramuh BPs), magic attack bonus traits (affects accuracy and damage of his spells and magic-based attacks). Ramuh has enhanced intelligence (+10) and mind (+5)

Leviathan: Conserve mp, Accuracy up, fast cast (reduce charging times for all BPs)

Fenrir: HP Boost traits, Attack up traits, Defense up traits, double attack, store tp. Fenrir has all stats enhanced (+5 each)

I think Ifrit and Garuda as the attacker summoners, Ramuh and Shiva as the spellcasters, Leviathan and Carbuncle as the Healer summons and Titan as the 'tank' summon would be a good idea. Shape some new 'spell pacts' and more 'physical pacts' for midlevels. The prime avatars are a summoners 'all-purpose' summons and can be used for a variety of things.

I think mainly avatar specific gear is whats missing for SMN, shiva and ifrit are useless endgame as well. If they had better gear that went along the lines of increasing specific summons damage outputs and lowering perpetuation costs to something that you dont have to worry about, but making bloodpacts cost more that things would be balanced. (Honestly how broken is an avatar just being out meleeing shit that isnt Too Weak/Easy Prey.)

More Avatar gear, another idea was being able to pick certain pacts at a certain level (attack pact, healing pact, support pact) via trekking back to the Protocrystal to kinda... 'customize' your summoner.

'Hey my Ifrit is fully geared for physical pacts, im gonna tear shit up.'

'Well mines a support Ifrit, he has high HP and can tank shit and buff me or my party'

'No, my healing Ifrit is the best - watch as he uses his healing fire to cure the party!'

Something along those lines, Attack, Support, Healing. Different growth trees depending on which path you wanted to take.

[Jones]

[quote=Ferien]

Has SE ever changed the weapon skill rating for any job ever?

BRD Dagger, Sword, Club added
BRD Staff added

Maybe I'm missing something but did SE not give Brd any weapons when it first came out? >.> lol

Throwing! Brilliant![/quote:1arukc96]


So PUP isn't the only that got that done to them!!! Throwing in a slot they can't throw with anyway.

But seriously, if BRD only had Evasion, Throwing, and Parry when it first came out, what did they parry with? Although I'd gladly give away all my combat skills for those A+ Singing/Wind/String skills BRD used to have.

[Khamsin]

so whatever is Odin, Alexander, Caitsith or Sage Sundi, please SE give me some new pet that either summons faster or can stay out while performing better that free-perp Carby.

I think we can all agree on this.

I just use spirits if I get caught unawares and need a quick summon.

updates like "added guns to RNG,"

How long did it take them to decide to allow RNGs to use guns, too?

[Kenji]

'Hey my Ifrit is fully geared for physical pacts, im gonna tear shit up.'

'Well mines a support Ifrit, he has high HP and can tank shit and buff me or my party'

'No, my healing Ifrit is the best - watch as he uses his healing fire to cure the party!'

Something along those lines, Attack, Support, Healing. Different growth trees depending on which path you wanted to take.

Noooooo! I don't want WoW's talent tree problems!

I just use spirits if I get caught unawares and need a quick summon.

I agree. Spirits should be for fast summons; they just need a dramatic perp cost reduction. Avatars should be slower to summon and utilize, like they are now. They just need a power boost to compensate. The lv70 pacts are a good example of this. But the perp cost and a lot of other abilities don't match.

[Lucavi]

'Hey my Ifrit is fully geared for physical pacts, im gonna tear shit up.'

'Well mines a support Ifrit, he has high HP and can tank shit and buff me or my party'

'No, my healing Ifrit is the best - watch as he uses his healing fire to cure the party!'

Something along those lines, Attack, Support, Healing. Different growth trees depending on which path you wanted to take.

Sounds a lot like WoW, and what I mean by that is actually diverse, fun, and useful without restricting the character to a single, solitary build to be allowed to go to a fight or event and actually participate. Right now, smn has one method: level 70 BP, possible buff, de-summon, and stay the fuck out of danger until you can BP again.

Noooooo! I don't want WoW's talent tree problems!

So you like having a complete lack of options in terms of what's allowed and what's not allowed? You have fun just spamming spinning dive or pred. claws all your life, then de-summoning?

[Khamsin]

'Hey my Ifrit is fully geared for physical pacts, im gonna tear shit up.'

'Well mines a support Ifrit, he has high HP and can tank shit and buff me or my party'

'No, my healing Ifrit is the best - watch as he uses his healing fire to cure the party!'

Something along those lines, Attack, Support, Healing. Different growth trees depending on which path you wanted to take.

Sounds a lot like WoW, and what I mean by that is actually diverse, fun, and useful without restricting the character to a single, solitary build to be allowed to go to a fight or event and actually participate. Right now, smn has one method: level 70 BP, possible buff, de-summon, and stay the fuck out of danger until you can BP again.

[quote:36qh3o9y]Noooooo! I don't want WoW's talent tree problems!

So you like having a complete lack of options in terms of what's allowed and what's not allowed? You have fun just spamming spinning dive or pred. claws all your life, then de-summoning?[/quote:36qh3o9y]
You do have options. It's called Spinning Dive or Spring Water. Predator Claws or Whispering Wind.

Now, if you don't think Spring Water or Whispering Wind is flexible enough to allow you to heal instead of DD as a viable option, beyond the Cure III you're already subbing, what makes you think a talent tree system like this would produce healing that's any better? Besides, you can DD *and* heal at the same time anyway, with just Cure III. There's no need for "Healing Fire".

As for tanking, if you are really in a position to need an avatar to tank, it will be tanking due to the 1000 Predator Claws you just did. If your Predator Claws didn't pull hate because the PLD's got it under control, then you didn't need your avatar to tank.

As for buffing, that's what Diabolos, Fenrir, Titan, and Garuda are for, if that's really what you're needed most for.

[Kenji]

So you like having a complete lack of options in terms of what's allowed and what's not allowed? You have fun just spamming spinning dive or pred. claws all your life, then de-summoning?

Not that either. There is a better way. Adjust things so leaving your avatar out is good. If we are going to modify avatars to make them different, then make it across the board. Ifrit has greater attack for all players. Ramuh has better attack magic then other avatars for all players.

I'm sick of hearing "Sorry, I didn't spec for [insert ability or talent here]." We're skirting close to that with the category II merits right now. The only saving grace, is that they are all equally sub-par, so it doesn't quite matter how you spend your points.

[isladar]

The 100-tp mini Make Yo' Sushi sounds awesome.

please tell me u made that up and no one actually says that

I did in fact make that up, if by 'make that up' you mean find inspiration from the hoary depths of my sheer unmitigated awesomeness and then let it spring forth from my keyboard like fuckin' Athena popping eighteen boners from her father's forehead all while Death Wish II blares in the background.

And yeah, also I can totally respond to something from page seven since my quote is from page one. KAPAZZA.

[ronin sparthos]

You do have options. It's called Spinning Dive or Spring Water. Predator Claws or Whispering Wind.

Now, if you don't think Spring Water or Whispering Wind is flexible enough to allow you to heal instead of DD as a viable option, beyond the Cure III you're already subbing, what makes you think a talent tree system like this would produce healing that's any better? Besides, you can DD *and* heal at the same time anyway, with just Cure III. There's no need for "Healing Fire"

I get your point, but the issue is more how you can make smn do something 'on its own' and less of depending so hard on the subjob whm. Whispering Wind, Healing Rubies, Spring Waters are all great but the fact is that those are the only spells that function that way and SMN has no other ways to heal other than falling back on /whm and cure-spelling all day. Hardly 'summoner' im my opinion of it. Why cant they do away with the perp costs and have a summon cost something low -but- the tradeoff is that your bloodpacts are where your going to spend your mp more than the summon being out itself. Avatars could then melee and you spend your MP healing, buffing or doing ANYTHING outside paying stupidly high perp costs.

Simply put, give summoner equivalents to cure I / II / III and hell even IV via the avatars, give some more bloodpacts that do that healing, do that erasing and do that raising (obviously only a R1 for SMN). Give a summoner a reason to keep those summons out and heal via the summon and less via the whm sub that absolutely makes the job. (SMN/anything else means you get laughed at universely atm.) We have dancers that can throw out instant waltzes up to tier 4, why cant the avatars do the same? Why is summoner one of the only jobs -still- that cannot function correctly without a subjob? The job can heal if the avatars had pacts to let them, along with the obvious ability to do damage at higher levels and even buff the party slightly but because there is such huge gaps between it and the fact that whispering/spring water have only AOE properties that smn falls back on /whm and just being an inferior curer and one of the least desirable healers ingame.

Talent trees are something i just tossed out, but thats not even needed. Summoner needs a way to heal single-target via avatars and the ability to use some better damage pacts near the midgame stretch, aoe Warcry that doesnt last for shit isnt gonna cut it. SMN is a ball full of potential, why it is being dragged through the mud by SE is beyond me.

[BlackMoomba]

Pup won't get a B in H2H, cause they'll never get Asuran Fists.

[layoneil]

Pup won't get a B in H2H, cause they'll never get Asuran Fists.

ever heard of SP WS?

[Max™]

The 100-tp mini Make Yo' Sushi sounds awesome.

please tell me u made that up and no one actually says that

I did in fact make that up, if by 'make that up' you mean find inspiration from the hoary depths of my sheer unmitigated awesomeness and then let it spring forth from my keyboard like fuckin' Athena popping eighteen boners from her father's forehead all while Death Wish II blares in the background.

And yeah, also I can totally respond to something from page seven since my quote is from page one. KAPAZZA.

I approve of Isladar's quote, for Mawggles, and because I call it Make You Sushi.

Also, landing on someone with a punch, Mnk/Drg, I did that at 30 when the latent earrings were new.

/p FLYING BURNING DRAGON JUMP KICK GO!
/ja "Jump" <stnpc>

[Ryko]

A number of people in our LS say "make yo(ur) sushi" because someone once pronounced it as such over vent accidentally.

[Kenji]

I get your point, but the issue is more how you can make smn do something 'on its own' and less of depending so hard on the subjob whm. Whispering Wind, Healing Rubies, Spring Waters are all great but the fact is that those are the only spells that function that way and SMN has no other ways to heal other than falling back on /whm and cure-spelling all day. Hardly 'summoner' im my opinion of it. Why cant they do away with the perp costs and have a summon cost something low -but- the tradeoff is that your bloodpacts are where your going to spend your mp more than the summon being out itself. Avatars could then melee and you spend your MP healing, buffing or doing ANYTHING outside paying stupidly high perp costs.

Simply put, give summoner equivalents to cure I / II / III and hell even IV via the avatars, give some more bloodpacts that do that healing, do that erasing and do that raising (obviously only a R1 for SMN). Give a summoner a reason to keep those summons out and heal via the summon and less via the whm sub that absolutely makes the job. (SMN/anything else means you get laughed at universely atm.) We have dancers that can throw out instant waltzes up to tier 4, why cant the avatars do the same? Why is summoner one of the only jobs -still- that cannot function correctly without a subjob? The job can heal if the avatars had pacts to let them, along with the obvious ability to do damage at higher levels and even buff the party slightly but because there is such huge gaps between it and the fact that whispering/spring water have only AOE properties that smn falls back on /whm and just being an inferior curer and one of the least desirable healers ingame.

I understand what you're saying, but summons have always been about the one big move. Perp cost just needs to be addressed. And perhaps changing each ability on an avatar to a 1 min cooldown. Thus, if you were being brought along for healing, you'd sub whm still, but you'd leave Carbuncle out. You could do healing ruby, which would then go into a 1 min cooldown, then do a Healing Ruby II which would then go into a 1 min cooldown as well. Between pulls, you'd bring out garuda for a quick whisper wind, hastega, and aerial armor, each on their own 1 min cooldown.

Or perhaps a better idea. A new JA at 65 that opens a particular spell list. In this list, you have all the healing and buffing spells listed. Selecting a "spell" from this list, causes a quick summon, buff/heal, release. This happens faster than normal summoning, and puts the particular spell on a 1 min cooldown. Even if you summon the normal avatar normally afterwards, that particular spell will still be on cooldown. Perhaps change Blood Pact Ward to this kind of idea.

[Tomino]

I just use spirits if I get caught unawares and need a quick summon.

I was thinking more about situations like the usual Limbus run, Nyzul, the standard Dynamis and any other farm/merit event. i dont really need spirits there, I only need something to interact with the mobs fast enough before they die from melee merits and ubergear otherwise it simply isnt funny. Hastega and CureIII makes me some sort of RDM-1

when they introduced Diabolos, aside from the cool-looking factor, it was a well designed addition : nice magic damage, ranged BP, BLM buff and a different 2h.

Fenrir is already on lower perp higher dot than normal avatars, so something along those lines.

[ronin sparthos]

I understand what you're saying, but summons have always been about the one big move. Perp cost just needs to be addressed. And perhaps changing each ability on an avatar to a 1 min cooldown. Thus, if you were being brought along for healing, you'd sub whm still, but you'd leave Carbuncle out. You could do healing ruby, which would then go into a 1 min cooldown, then do a Healing Ruby II which would then go into a 1 min cooldown as well. Between pulls, you'd bring out garuda for a quick whisper wind, hastega, and aerial armor, each on their own 1 min cooldown.

Or perhaps a better idea. A new JA at 65 that opens a particular spell list. In this list, you have all the healing and buffing spells listed. Selecting a "spell" from this list, causes a quick summon, buff/heal, release. This happens faster than normal summoning, and puts the particular spell on a 1 min cooldown. Even if you summon the normal avatar normally afterwards, that particular spell will still be on cooldown. Perhaps change Blood Pact Ward to this kind of idea.

SE has shown that they can abandon the ordinary 'FF' style of doing things for this game exclusively. The problem with summoner atm is 1. Overdependance on /whm (without it, the job is effectively broken, few other jobs can say they need a sj as badly as smn.) 2. Perpetuation Costs (This is a relic of '05, in todays FFXI this is nothing more than hindering SMN from doing what its supposed to do and slows the jobs tempo)

The job is supposed to be mainly be focused on your avatars but the way things are, until you reach high levels when you get the good pacts the job boils down to healing and using summons as a bridge between cures. 1min timers on everything bottlenecks the job into healing until that timer is up, breaking it up into Rage and Ward was a good idea but as a job thats been pigeonholed into a 'healer' (Too many DDs already, job cant tank, it has a huge mana pool so....) it lacks the ability to heal on its own effectively.

Drop the perp costs low enough so that they are a non-factor in what a summoner does, give them some healing spells that are more or less cure I-IV, raise 1, curagas, erase, status cures that are under 'Healing Pacts', keep rage and ward on 1min timers but make the 'Healing Pacts' more along the lines of quick recast, quick reaction spells that originate from the avatars themselves. That way you can have the summoner using the Rages or Wards every 1min, the healing pacts as the key source of healing the party and the avatar doing its meleeing while the party is fighting something. *Gasp* it'd be the day that the summons are out more, summoners can maybe look beyond /whm (it'd still be a viable sub, just not the absolute end-all) and the job wont be frowned upon for 65-70 levels of its career.

Your take on it could work as well, its just sad that SMN is so dependant on its sj to function.

[Khamsin]

Pup won't get a B in H2H, cause they'll never get Asuran Fists.

ever heard of SP WS?

It's not as if PUP would be stronger than MNKs even with Asuran Fists, anyway, so there's no reason to believe it's out of the question at some point in the future.

[Kenji]

Drop the perp costs low enough so that they are a non-factor in what a summoner does, give them some healing spells that are more or less cure I-IV, raise 1, curagas, erase, status cures that are under 'Healing Pacts', keep rage and ward on 1min timers but make the 'Healing Pacts' more along the lines of quick recast, quick reaction spells that originate from the avatars themselves. That way you can have the summoner using the Rages or Wards every 1min, the healing pacts as the key source of healing the party and the avatar doing its meleeing while the party is fighting something. *Gasp* it'd be the day that the summons are out more, summoners can maybe look beyond /whm (it'd still be a viable sub, just not the absolute end-all) and the job wont be frowned upon for 65-70 levels of its career.

Your take on it could work as well, its just sad that SMN is so dependant on its sj to function.

Problem is, what else would you sub? The only things I can think of, are possibly SCH. Utilizing dark arts would allows some weak nukes and aspir, but that's about it. SMN is kinda different than most classes, in that WHM is subbed not because it's good (it is), but because nothing else is good at all.


How about a third BP category. Blood Pact: Revitalize. The following pacts fit under this one:
Healing Ruby
Healing Ruby II
Whispering Wind
Spring Water
Gospel of the Lost (Alexander, whom I'm still convinced we are getting)

Keep in mind, we also don't have Phoenix, who traditionally held the raises. And might have a healing move as well, so it would go under here. And to continue the theme: Blood Pact: Cripple. Any avatar move which doesn't do damage, but enfeebles the mob, would go here. Ward would keep everything else that is a buff.

Now you've got 4 different moves per minute. You're a buff, debuffer, doing some damage and off-healing as well.

[Spider-Dan]

Why is summoner one of the only jobs -still- that cannot function correctly without a subjob?

NIN is even more useless without a SJ, and yet that doesn't seem to bother anyone.

[Indalecia]

[quote=Spider-Dan]

Why is summoner one of the only jobs -still- that cannot function correctly without a subjob?

NIN is even more useless without a SJ, and yet that doesn't seem to bother anyone.[/quote:1n17gkm4]

Shut up and voke