Thanks George W. Bush!

[Tajin]

Hmmm, money, are you guys hiring? >.>

[Charla]

A good example.

Now consider that the company making the offer might not have mentioned interest on the debt, or even bothered to explain the concept of interest. Then consider that whoever she ends up working for might decide he wants to do this, and there's not much she can do about it. I agree that it's not slavery if informed consent is made and all parties abide by the terms laid out, but neither one is real likely when it's so incredibly easy for the employer to cheat.

@Firas: Glad you enjoyed the day off. Remember: I'm not really talking about your country, I'm mostly just complaining about corporate corruption and using it to justify taking sides in this argument.

[Plow]

I think we're all pretty much agreeing at this point that if it's regulated well enough, it's all well and good, and that if it's not, it'll probably be unfair, but depending just how bad it was back home it may still be well enough.

[archibaldcrane]

First of all, thanks for the holiday bush.

Second, thanks for the derail.

Third, so many quotes, and all. But im just going to say, we get maids that have a degree in computer engineering, teachers, etc. Don't you wonder why they do they choose to come to the middle east to work? no, we dont force anyone, they choose to be here. Because their country doesn't offer what we offer. I asked my maid once (shes a college graduate) why dont you find a job in the philippines, maybe something you related to your major, or something you like. She told me: "I can get one easily, and i did before coming here, but being a maid in the UAE pays alot more than being a computer engineer in the philippines, I have 3 daughters to feed". So, in other words, the country is doing those people a favor by giving them such opportunities. How they are treated, is based on the family. I'm not going to lie, i see/hear some families treat their maids like total shit, makes it look like they're slaves. Some families are the victims when the maid steals their belongings/jewelry/clothes and run away(we were a victim of that). But the concept was never meant to look like its slavery
As for the holding their passport, we dont control them, its just a deposit or a guarantee kinda. So they wont cause any mishaps or violate any rules. But we cannot "hold" them here if they do not wish to work anymore, we just give them back the passport and drop them off the agency where they came from. After that, the agency proceeds with the necessary to book them a ticket for the next flight to the philippines. and thats that. Like it or not, its doing us great good in here. Safety, less crime, more jobs for expatriates, etc.

Very critical in your comments on a country you know very little about, especially you arch=\

Kids, are you ready? I'm good and liquored up now, I've got my american flag headband on, and it's time - it's "america, archibaldcrane-style" time!

Providing a great opportunity for these poor, poor people eh? So they can come be your maid?

You see, here in America, we learn about indentured servitude. In fucking HISTORY class. But you see, over 100 years ago, we figured that it wasn't a good way to treat people (not immigrants, people, by american standards) and by the end of slavery it had fallen by the wayside, along with slavery. And if indentured servitude didn't live up to the standard of living in 1880, imagine how it compares to the standard of living in America now. Speaking of standard of living, I hear ya'll in UAE have it quite nice. Given the falling american dollar, UAE is topping the US in GDP per capita. People go on vacations to your tiny little country JUST TO GO SHOPPING.

Now look, I get it. The UAE doesn't have the "immigrant tradition" that the U.S. has, immigrants working earnestly to become citizens were never "vital" to it's development and success. They are a dime a dozen. UAE citizenship is valued and rare, hence the fact that 85% of it's population are non-citizens. Like america, you need people to work the manual labor jobs, the poor people, and they sure as hell aren't going to be UAE citizens - there's much too much money kicking around in oil and natural gas for UAE citizens to be wasting their time with manual labor. Maid? Why not? I'm a rich-ass UAE citizen, I deserve such luxury. I've got the american flag bandana tied really tight now. You know what U.S. citizens say to people with maids? They say "Hey, fuck you! Learn to clean up after yourself you rich asshole." When this is coupled with at-best borderline exploitative tactics of indentured servitude, your U.S. citizen is about ready to pound a 12-pack of Milwaukee's Best and start throwing punches.

America has it's own immigration/poor people problem. The manufacturing base - the fallback for people who didn't go to college - the opportunity to make a decent wage under decent conditions, has been nearly completely outsourced to other countries. Fuck the workers, just get the products shipped here cheaply. What about the jobs you can't outsource? Farming is a joke - illegal labor can be obtained at such an economic competitive advantage that U.S. citizens would never attempt to break in at such insulting wages. Service jobs - your maids/housekeepers/nannies/cab drivers often befall the same fate. The difference here is that immigrants are held to standards - not to the standards of the countries they come from, but to american standards. All they have to do is "beat" the prevailing wage you'd pay an American and they win. Pretty much no matter where they are from this isn't too hard.

On the other hand you have the UAE. Similar standard of living, very different bar to hurdle. In the UAE, you have people thinking "well, I don't care if they have a college degree - it's better to make shit from an employer who holds your Visa and restricts your rights as a maid...because it's more than I'd make as a skilled worker in their own country!" They are held to the standard of where they are from - a much, MUCH lower standard than the low-level UAE citizen. Those workers are seen as "fortunate" given their alternative - they should be so lucky, seriously.

UAE and America both have one thing in common - they are nations of immigrants. The United States happens to have incorporated most of it's immigrants as valued members of the country. The UAE on the other hand, prefers that they toil in servitude.

While it may seem that I'm getting really riled up about this reality, I honestly think it's hilarious. A country whose citizenry is arguably -better- off financially than your average American, and they still fight tooth-and-nail to maintain their dominant position over their most vulnerable residents.

Justifications are an awesome sleep-aid.

[Khamsin]

But that's American policy. It was right for us, but we shouldn't thrust our policies or views upon the rest of the world. Let them run things the way they want.

[Charla]

It's really the last generation's American policy. These days we don't believe in realistic quotas because dey terk aah jerbs.

Oh, and most of us don't really have a problem with rich people having servants. The drunken shitkickers do, but they tend to pass out before they get a chance to take a swing at anyone.

[Olo401]

You see, here in America, we learn about indentured servitude. In fucking HISTORY class. But you see, over 100 years ago, we figured that it wasn't a good way to treat people (not immigrants, people, by american standards) and by the end of slavery it had fallen by the wayside, along with slavery. And if indentured servitude didn't live up to the standard of living in 1880, imagine how it compares to the standard of living in America now.

Have we been paying attention to the American economy? These days if you make under 250k a year and have a home mortgage, you ARE IN INDENTURED SERVITUDE. If you make under 50k, and you own a car, you're PROBABLY BARELY MAKING ENOUGH TO COVER YOUR RENT AND GAS. And it's about to get a lot worse, if this comparison is any indication..

[archibaldcrane]

I make around 25k/year, with student loans and a car, living in Los Angeles, which isn't cheap.

I still manage. Your 250k/year baseline is ridiculous.

[Charla]

You see, here in America, we learn about indentured servitude. In fucking HISTORY class. But you see, over 100 years ago, we figured that it wasn't a good way to treat people (not immigrants, people, by american standards) and by the end of slavery it had fallen by the wayside, along with slavery. And if indentured servitude didn't live up to the standard of living in 1880, imagine how it compares to the standard of living in America now.

Have we been paying attention to the American economy? These days if you make under 250k a year and have a home mortgage, you ARE IN INDENTURED SERVITUDE. If you make under 50k, and you own a car, you're PROBABLY BARELY MAKING ENOUGH TO COVER YOUR RENT AND GAS. And it's about to get a lot worse, if this comparison is any indication..

Well, home ownership is only one widespread form of debt. Credit cards are more common, charge far higher interest rates, and there's no such thing as equity. Also, you're not quite as likely to be misled about the terms on your morgatage or credit card if you watch the news once in a while, so it's your own fault for being ignorant amirite?

[aurik]

Have we been paying attention to the American economy? These days if you make under 250k a year and have a home mortgage, you ARE IN INDENTURED SERVITUDE. If you make under 50k, and you own a car, you're PROBABLY BARELY MAKING ENOUGH TO COVER YOUR RENT AND GAS. And it's about to get a lot worse, if this comparison is any indication..

Wikipedia says...
Indentured Servitude
An indentured servant is a laborer under contract of the employer for some period of time, usually seven years, in exchange for such things as ship's passage, food, and accommodations.

Mortgage
A mortgage is a method of using property (real or personal) as security for the performance of an obligation, usually the payment of a debt.


So in essence, you're wrong, shut the fuck up.

[Olo401]

I make around 25k/year, with student loans and a car, living in Los Angeles, which isn't cheap.

I still manage. Your 250k/year baseline is ridiculous.

When the shit starts hitting the fan a lot harder than it is now, it won't be ridiculous.

[archibaldcrane]

These days If you make under 50k, and you own a car, you're PROBABLY BARELY MAKING ENOUGH TO COVER YOUR RENT AND GAS.

I'm just saying you're wrong.

[Charla]

Well maybe he's basing his numbers on the assumption that you're also paying 30% on your 5 maxed out credit cards. It's the American_Way after all!

[archibaldcrane]

Probably.

I don't do credit card debt, just 42k in student loans.

[Kyreth]

This is one reason I have no credit cards.

Just my check card. Debt is the new American slave trade, though it's been around for decades.

[Charla]

This is one reason I have no credit cards.

Just my check card. Debt is the new American slave trade, though it's been around for decades.

True. Although I think 30% interest wasn't legal in the 70s.

[evilbau]

This is one reason I have no credit cards.

Just my check card. Debt is the new American slave trade, though it's been around for decades.

No offense but thats a dumb reason not to have credit cards. You said 'one reason' so i'll assume you have others, but credit cards aren't for people who don't know what they are doing, or even for those that 'remember 95% of the time'. But they do have a lot of benefits. You'll find out why when you want to buy a house.

to OP: I thought this little middle eastern trip was going to finally be the fulfilling of Tecumseh's Curse for good ol dubya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh%27s_curse)

[archibaldcrane]

Oh, I use my credit card all the time - I just pay it off every month. Helps your credit rating, and works out fine if you aren't a shop-crazy spaz.

[Khamsin]

Aside from the obvious differences between indentured servitude and mortgages/credit card debt/etc. keep in mind that indentured servitude requires that you work for one company with restricted priviledges doing specific tasks they assign you, whereas in order to pay off a modern debt, you can work wherever you want and do whatever you want just so long as you pay the lender back on time.

And let's be honest, even if there were no such thing as debt and everything was purchased up front, you'd still need to work just like you are now. You can hardly compare a monthly paycheck to your debtors "servitude" when they don't dictate anything other than that you have a job in order to pay them back, which you'd have anyways even if you didn't owe them anything.

[Kyreth]

This is one reason I have no credit cards.

Just my check card. Debt is the new American slave trade, though it's been around for decades.

No offense but thats a dumb reason not to have credit cards. You said 'one reason' so i'll assume you have others, but credit cards aren't for people who don't know what they are doing, or even for those that 'remember 95% of the time'. But they do have a lot of benefits. You'll find out why when you want to buy a house.

I've got a great credit rating, actually. It's called "pay off your loans, quickly.". Car, computer, etc. Ford keeps offering to completely finance my next vehicle at a low, low rate, my bank wants to know when I'm getting a loan for a new home, and my current landlord was amazed that anyone he'd rent to could keep themselves off the Visa/Mastercard teat.

You want good credit- get loans on the things you don't have cash on hand, pay it off in advance, in full. Don't keep credit cards around. You end up like my late wife- multiple cards, refinancing, using one to pay for the others and watching your savings vaporize like dust in the wind.

All it takes is one bad month, and you're fucked. One. And the CC companies know it. I have plenty of friends with the bills to prove it. Like Vegas, the odds are with the credit card, simply from human nature. Live within your means, save when you can and you'll go a lot further with your money in the end. President Jackson had the right idea in that regard.