UFO sighting in Texas...

[Woozie]

As I was explaining earlier, the duration of events change dramatically from frame to frame via time dilation. If a person is watching you at 299 999 km/s, time dilation will be extreme, so the duration of events will vary to an extremely noticeable extent. The analogy I used with the candles earlier applies here as well.

[Howard Roark]

ufo's -> math -> physics -> quantum physics -> math again

F=m*a

am i the only one who glazed over then saw FMA (full metal alchemist)?

[Denchi]

I read the first page of this thread and thought "Oh snap this might be interesting." Then I skipped to page 5 and thought "Oh nevermind."

I'll leave it up to the math geeks.

[Luto]

You can't have free will and predetermined events. It's one or the other.

Why? how does one pertain to the other?

free will = choice
predetermined = already set choice
if you want to talk about absolute free will with control over all events then you are talking god like power.

you can have free will and predetermination co-existing. its the same with desitiny. has it already been set? maybe, but according to our limited perception, since we cannot see past a certain point in time our choices made are free to us. infinite paths to one outcome. you can chose which ever path you want = free will. but the outcome is what we cannot chose, because we are limited 4th dimensional creatures we dont know that.

or

free to chose within a limited boundary. e.g multiple choice questions. the answers are predetermined either A B C or D

but.. you have free will to chose between the predetermined.

How can you have both? If it's predetermined, you never really had the choice.

[Takiwaki]

You can't have free will and predetermined events. It's one or the other.

Why? how does one pertain to the other?

free will = choice
predetermined = already set choice
if you want to talk about absolute free will with control over all events then you are talking god like power.

you can have free will and predetermination co-existing. its the same with desitiny. has it already been set? maybe, but according to our limited perception, since we cannot see past a certain point in time our choices made are free to us. infinite paths to one outcome. you can chose which ever path you want = free will. but the outcome is what we cannot chose, because we are limited 4th dimensional creatures we dont know that.

or

free to chose within a limited boundary. e.g multiple choice questions. the answers are predetermined either A B C or D

but.. you have free will to chose between the predetermined.

How can you have both? If it's predetermined, you never really had the choice.

I just showed you how lol its all a matter of perspective. you need to be clearer in your statement about what is being predetermined.

are you touching on choice as in the outcome of something you do not have control over? or do? we have free will over what? ourselves, but the outcome of somethings are affected by forces we have no control over.

predetermination and free will has long been a huge debate on many levels as it also consists on acceptance of truth of what is and what is not.

[Kaylia]

The energy expended is going to be expended while you're accelerating. Regardless of the speed of the observers, any observer in any inertial frame will see you accelerate the same amount, and hence will all get the same value for the change in energy.

So in your example, the observers in every frame will see the same acceleration (and the same change in energy) even though they were all moving at different velocities (as long as they're all in an inertial frame).

How can the acceleration and energy expenditure measured be the same from all frames of reference?

If I'm on a ship moving at 299 999km/s, and I throw a baseball at 1km/s, the observer who sees me going that fast will not see the ball at 300 000km/s, they'll only see it going at 299 999.00001 km/s.

Or is this a technicality, in that the acceleration really is the same, but the observed duration that this acceleration takes place is different? e.g. from my view within the spaceship, an object accelerates at 1km/s^2 for 1 second, increasing the velocity by 1 km/s. But from outside the ship, they still observe a 1km/s^2 acceleration, but only for 0.00001 seconds?

It's similar paradox that lead Einstein to relativity. Woozie answered this already, but the only explanation you can give is time dilatation (unless you allow the object to be at 2 position at the same times, or have 2 different level of energy). If time is different, velocity observed will be different, and energy will be conserved.

[Marsala]

You can't have free will and predetermined events. It's one or the other.

Imagine a cruise ship going somewhere and you have your choice of what to do on that ride? I think that is a pretty good concept of both.

[Septimus]

You can't have free will and predetermined events. It's one or the other.

Imagine a cruise ship going somewhere and you have your choice of what to do on that ride? I think that is a pretty good concept of both.

I look at it more along the lines that we have free will, but are really, really predictable.

[Neosutra]

You can't have free will and predetermined events. It's one or the other.

Still dont quite get it do you?

Infinite permutations accounts for all possible choices you could make and has NO fucking relation to free will.

There is no free will. Free will is an illusion of a simple species associating the "choices" they make as determinant events. Your choices are irrelevant to the calculations of the infinite permutations of each wave state.

[Blarg]

What do you mean here

There is no free will. Free will is an illusion of a simple species associating the "choices" they make as determinant events. Your choices are irrelevant to the calculations of the infinite permutations of each wave state.

especially the infinite permutation of each wave state, not really sure what you are saying.

[Khamsin]

What do you mean here

There is no free will. Free will is an illusion of a simple species associating the "choices" they make as determinant events. Your choices are irrelevant to the calculations of the infinite permutations of each wave state.

especially the infinite permutation of each wave state, not really sure what you are saying.

Think of it as an ever-branching tree, where the sum of your choices define the branches (albeit in this case, infinite). All the branches are there, despite whatever choices we make, and our choices do not alter the tree.

The fun thing to think about, though, is why our consciousness is on this specific branch, and no other? There may be infinite permutations to cover all possible outcomes of what has ever or will ever occur, but our minds and our memories seem to slide along a specific path. Perhaps its simply that if we were on another path, we'd remember that instead. Maybe it only seems significant that all our choices led us down a particular path because we had to have made those choices to be here to think about it in the first place. On any other path, our memories would be of all the choices made to get to that branch, instead.

[Neosutra]

What do you mean here

There is no free will. Free will is an illusion of a simple species associating the "choices" they make as determinant events. Your choices are irrelevant to the calculations of the infinite permutations of each wave state.

especially the infinite permutation of each wave state, not really sure what you are saying.

Just that he is associating macroscopic actions/results to quantum states, and when doing a calculation that includes ALL variations of the quantum states, you inherently cover all the macroscopic possibilities. Free will, is just a series of rather simplistic factors associated with a finite group of packeted bio-entropy bags(humans). We say we have "free will", because we can make choices. When in reality the number of options we can take at any given moment is finite, and furthermore if you understand time a little better you will see time isnt quite what it seems from our perspective. There isnt some massive timeline where little ole humans choices cascade accross the eons. There is a massive amount of energy, traveling at the speed of light (so they dont even experience time), interacting with each other to form matter that does experience time (because it doesnt travel at the true speed of the universe).

The true state of the universe has no time. The true state of the universe is a single point.

There is a reason the space between our celestial bodies is filled with literally nothing, yet we just cant get there. Wrap your brain around the concept of something being right next to you, but there being a perceptive distance relative to your function of "c", that makes everything seem far away.

We are a simple species, made of matter that is made of light, and we are trapped riding the waves of this cosmic spacetime.

[Blarg]

Ok I wasn't sure if you were claiming that there is no free will at all, while of course we can't choose to fly or grow another set of arms there are still things that we freely choose to do. I can choose to spin a pencil clockwise or counter clockwise according to my own will, even though those 2 possibilities have always existed along with tossing the pencil in the air and throwing it to the ground etc before my ever having seen that pencil. There is a limit to what we can freely choose to do but I think what is possible to do can be freely done.

We are a simple species, made of matter that is made of light, and we are trapped riding the waves of this cosmic spacetime.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this (the way you say we are trapped leads me to think you may mean the following) but do you think that if the entire universe were to come about in the EXACT same way, that the split second of the big bang happened the very same way as it did 15billion years ago, that the entire outcome and actions on this planet would have happened the same way at the same times, for example, this post of mine would happen with every word and letter the same all over again.

[Neosutra]

Ok I wasn't sure if you were claiming that there is no free will at all, while of course we can't choose to fly or grow another set of arms there are still things that we freely choose to do. I can choose to spin a pencil clockwise or counter clockwise according to my own will, even though those 2 possibilities have always existed along with tossing the pencil in the air and throwing it to the ground etc before my ever having seen that pencil. There is a limit to what we can freely choose to do but I think what is possible to do can be freely done.

We are a simple species, made of matter that is made of light, and we are trapped riding the waves of this cosmic spacetime.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this (the way you say we are trapped leads me to think you may mean the following) but do you think that if the entire universe were to come about in the EXACT same way, that the split second of the big bang happened the very same way as it did 15billion years ago, that the entire outcome and actions on this planet would have happened the same way at the same times, for example, this post of mine would happen with every word and letter the same all over again.

Well, this is the state the universe ended up in given those conditions on this iteration. One would be inclined to think given the same quantum variables, influenced by the same forces, you would get the same result. Then again, thats just this dimension ....

But I was further stressing the point that time/space is really relative and in all actuality doesnt really exist. And by space I mean the space between two objects.

[Woozie]

Well, this is the state the universe ended up in given those conditions on this iteration. One would be inclined to think given the same quantum variables, influenced by the same forces, you would get the same result. Then again, thats just this dimension ....

You're fully aware of the fact that the same experiment performed with the exact same initial conditions will not always have the exact same result. It's the probabilistic nature of our universe. If the conditions of the big bang were to be recreated, there's a possibility that we would get the exact same result, but there is a possibility that we wouldn't.

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting the meaning of your paragraph? To me it sounded like you were saying that given an exact same conditions, you will always recreate the exact same result.

[Neosutra]

Well, this is the state the universe ended up in given those conditions on this iteration. One would be inclined to think given the same quantum variables, influenced by the same forces, you would get the same result. Then again, thats just this dimension ....

You're fully aware of the fact that the same experiment performed with the exact same initial conditions will not always have the exact same result. It's the probabilistic nature of our universe. If the conditions of the big bang were to be recreated, there's a possibility that we would get the exact same result, but there is a possibility that we wouldn't.

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting the meaning of your paragraph? To me it sounded like you were saying that given an exact same conditions, you will always recreate the exact same result.

You know Im fully aware of that

I wasnt saying we would always recreate the same results, I was saying a possibility of two things:

1. Given the same variables, the universe ended in this condition in the first place, suggesting that this is the most probable course for the universe to take to maintain/move toward the entropic equilibrium.

2. Every differnt quantum choice results in a parallel universe and thus saying "would it happen the same" is irellevant because every possible timeline would play out, accounting for every "same way" imaginable. I personally do not think there is enough mathematical evidence to support this second premis, but it is neat to think about.

[Remyo]

I know this turned into a quantum physics wtf thread, but military released a statement about what the UFO was.

Military Blames UFO Reports on Jet Drills
By ANGELA K. BROWN,
AP
Posted: 2008-01-24 07:00:32
Filed Under: Nation News
FORT WORTH, Texas (Jan. 23) - So much for aliens in Texas dairy country. At least that was the message Wednesday when the military said 10 F-16 fighter jets were training in the Stephenville area the night dozens of residents reported seeing a UFO.Although Air Force Reserve officials in Fort Worth initially said they had no planes in the area Jan. 8, they said Wednesday that they were mistaken and wanted to set the record straight "in the interest of public awareness."

But some residents remain convinced that it was no human-made aircraft, saying the military's revelation actually bolsters their claims. Some insist they saw at least two fighter jets chasing a large object with bright lights.

"This supports our story that there was UFO activity in that area," said Kenneth Cherry, the Texas director of the Mutual UFO Network, which took more than 50 reports from locals at a meeting last weekend. "I find it curious that it took them two weeks to 'fess up. I think they're feeling the heat from the publicity."
Well-respected business owners and a county constable were among dozens who swear that what they saw was larger, quieter, faster and lower to the ground than an airplane. They also said the object's lights changed configuration, unlike those of a plane.

"I guarantee that what we saw was not a civilian aircraft," Steve Allen, a pilot and freight company owner, said Wednesday.

Allen said that the planes' training area in the Brownwood Military Operating Area that includes Stephenville's Erath County does not include the airspace where he saw the object. Also, Jan. 8 was not the only day sightings were reported.

Maj. Karl Lewis, a spokesman for the 301st Fighter Wing at the Joint Reserve Base Naval Air Station in Fort Worth, declined to comment on the nature of the military training or say if it took place on other days.

He initially said folks may have seen an illusion caused by two commercial airplanes and reflections from the setting sun. On Wednesday, he said he should not have speculated about the reported sightings.

Anne Frazor, who owns a fabric store in Stephenville, about 70 miles southwest of Fort Worth, said many in town have seen military aircraft zoom overhead from time to time as part of training operations. But she said that is different than what she saw Jan. 8.

"I couldn't begin to say what it was, but to me it wasn't planes," Frazor said.

Since the reported sightings two weeks ago, the 17,000-resident town has had some fun with the international publicity. Some high-schoolers made T-shirts that read "Stephenville: the new Roswell" on the front and "They're here for the milk!" on the back. A picture features flying saucer beaming up a cow.

Several stores put new messages on their marquees, including "Aliens welcome."

This week Tarleton State University is even hosting a lecture by a UFO researcher on the U.S. government's secret response to UFOs, based on previously classified documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.

The U.S. Air Force says it has not investigated UFO sightings since 1969 when it ended Project Blue Book, which examined more than 12,600 reported UFO sightings - including 700 that were never explained. That program started a few months after the 1947 crash near Roswell, N.M., which the government said was a top-secret weather balloon but others involved later said was an alien spacecraft.

"What we want is the government to admit there are UFOs and what they know about them," Cherry said.

I'm almost positive thats what it was, but I can see where it does look somewhat fishy.

[Septimus]

I'm almost positive thats what it was, but I can see where it does look somewhat fishy.

Honestly, the government was probably better off just ignoring it, even if it was exactly what they said it was. People have such an inherent distrust of anything that the government says these days, the only way to make people believe that it wasn't alien invaders would be for the government to admit that they have been in cahoots with the aliens for years.

[Khamsin]

I'm almost positive thats what it was, but I can see where it does look somewhat fishy.

Honestly, the government was probably better off just ignoring it, even if it was exactly what they said it was. People have such an inherent distrust of anything that the government says these days, the only way to make people believe that it wasn't alien invaders would be for the government to admit that they have been in cahoots with the aliens for years.

I'm not a paranoid conspiracy theorist (aka guartz), but I can see where some people might think it suspicious that it took them this long to say "Oh yeah, we had a jet training exercise right above your town that night, afterall." Especially after conflicting statements, speculations, and denials from when the reports first came in.

The military just needs to learn to say "no comment" on this stuff and if they choose to say anything, have their story together first.

[Kuya]

I used to believe in UFOs, and right now i can't say i belive in them or not. Mostly because i'm far too concerned with our species' insufferable imperfections that i really don't have the energy or interest in alien lifeforms.