Randomer Question Thread

[Amele]

Regarding Ninja body pieces:

Is Haub > Shura? I have DBody sitting in storage (Mnk is only 37) I'd have to pawn off some shit for a Haub +1 (short a few hundred K)

generally speaking; yes. (haub is 12~13 acc after applying Dex) and 5 dex will help your crit ws, etc etc.

you lose a (small, about 7) amount of attack, but gain 2-3acc 5dex and 5 strength.

edit: this assumes you're not concerned about loss of evasion (i.e.: shura togi is better for an evasion based build, because you lose only a little accuracy in TP in exchange for tons more evasion, and can continue to use the haub for ws to gain dex benefit on ws)

[FailureMidgard]

Yea, but he runs when his last third eye is gone and gets out of range before they swing again.. that's kind of fishy considering they have no form of slow on them and should be at least getting one more attack off when he runs >_>

Watched the videos briefly the other day...he did use those ice trousers, I'm way too lazy to go back and try to see if it procced or not, but it's possible. Furthermore (and I have no clue what is immune to gravity or if he used it), remember dancers get gravity. I've used the dnc gravity to kite when 3rdeye was down as sam/dnc before.

[FailureMidgard]

generally speaking; yes. (haub is 12~13 acc after applying Dex) and 5 dex will help your crit ws, etc etc.

you lose a (small, about 7) amount of attack, but gain 2-3acc 5dex and 5 strength.

edit: this assumes you're not concerned about loss of evasion (i.e.: shura togi is better for an evasion based build, because you lose only a little accuracy in TP in exchange for tons more evasion, and can continue to use the haub for ws to gain dex benefit on ws)

Sounds like he doesn't even have the Togi made...I wouldn't drop that much gil on it until you actually lvl your mnk, it's an inferior piece for almost anything for ninja, and on top of that you can never sell it back if you change your mind. Fulltime Haub for DDish things (merits), Use a SH or something if you want evasion, and still use the Haub for WS.

[Malinn]

I was under the impression that Shura > NQ haub for some reason. I've been using it on my SAM for a while (obviously for TP build). However, I've learned to enjoy being a little evasive for situations where I have hate a little more than briefly. Is it just plain unacceptable to TP in Shura togi, or is the difference negligible?

Also, since I don't have store TP maxed yet, I've been using Dusk gloves instead of Hachiman. I also have O.kotes, and I rarely, if ever use them. Would selling them bite me in the ass?

[Malinn]

Better yet, I'mma just gonna post what I wear when I TP and WS and tell me what I need to change.

TP Set
Ushi/Hagun/Soboro
Mythril Grip +1
Tiphia Sting
W.Turban
C. Chain
Bushi/Brutal
Shura Togi
Dusk Gloves
Woodsman/Rajas
Amemet+1
Swift Belt
Byakko's Haidate
Fuma Sune-ate

Weaponskill Set
Wyvern Helm
Aqua/Flame Gorgets
Bushi/Brustal
Osode/Hauby(NQ)
Flame/Rajas
Amemet+1
Warwolf Belt
Shura Haidate
Rutter Sabatons

Yeah yeah, I know it's not the best, but whatcha gonna do?

[FailureMidgard]

Better yet, I'mma just gonna post what I wear when I TP and WS and tell me what I need to change.

TP Set
Ushi/Hagun/Soboro
Mythril Grip +1
Tiphia Sting
W.Turban
C. Chain
Bushi/Brutal
Shura Togi
Dusk Gloves
Woodsman/Rajas
Amemet+1
Swift Belt
Byakko's Haidate
Fuma Sune-ate

Weaponskill Set
Wyvern Helm
C.chain
Bushi/Brustal
Osode/Hauby(NQ)
Flame/Rajas
Amemet+1
Warwolf Belt
Shura Haidate
Rutter Sabatons

Yeah yeah, I know it's not the best, but whatcha gonna do?

Switch to Pole Grip.
Grab some Sea Gorget(s) for WSes.
There is no way you are at the accuracy cap also, so unless you are wearing Shura just because you don't lose the eva/agi (which is situationally valid), it's gonna be lower damage than Haub.
Any other upgrades are likely obvious and expensive/harder to obtain.
Toss Ushi, that thing has 0 use since Sekkanoki. Soboro is /rng /dnc only...hope you aren't using it other times. :/

[Callisto]

I personally would use Pole Strap and TP in Hauby, but that's just nitpicky most likely. If you have Sea gorgets are nice for SAM WS' since the main ones are all single-hit.

[Malinn]

Oh, ahaha, I forgot to mention I have Aqua and Flame Gorget.

[Malinn]

Switch to Pole Grip.
Grab some Sea Gorget(s) for WSes.
There is no way you are at the accuracy cap also, so unless you are wearing Shura just because you don't lose the eva/agi (which is situationally valid), it's gonna be lower damage than Haub.
Any other upgrades are likely obvious and expensive/harder to obtain.
Toss Ushi, that thing has 0 use since Sekkanoki. Soboro is /rng /dnc only...hope you aren't using it other times. :/

Pole grip sounds good, I'll get that. And actually, yes, I do wear Shura so I don't lose the evasion/agi. My concern was how much damage I'm losing out on, if it's not a ton, I don't mind. And I pretty much use soboro for /DNC since I hawked off my /RNG gear. I plan on replacing the woodsman ring with something that doesn't gimp my evasion.

I used to think evasion was worthless, but I've been saved by it so many times in critical situations, so I figure it's something to consider.

Oh, and any suggestions for solo SAM/DNC gear?

[Callisto]

No need to really change anything from a normal SAM set, juse use Soboro, though you may want to grab a Genbu's Kabuto and a couple of other VIT pieces to swap in for Waltz Potency if you're really worried about it.

I don't know the 6-hit math off the top of my head, but if you're right on the bubble at the moment you could get an Ecphoria and dump the Woodsman, then trade in Chiv for PCC.

[FailureMidgard]

No need to really change anything from a normal SAM set, juse use Soboro, though you may want to grab a Genbu's Kabuto and a couple of other VIT pieces to swap in for Waltz Potency if you're really worried about it.

I don't know the 6-hit math off the top of my head, but if you're right on the bubble at the moment you could get an Ecphoria and dump the Woodsman, then trade in Chiv for PCC.

Depends what you are trying to solo...if you're going for some random lower lvl crap and just farming, sure. Furthermore, in this situation you really don't even need a soboro..you should be able to WS fairly regularly.

If you want to kill something a bit harder...pretend you're a nin...eva/parry/agi (and %dmg down if 3e falls) are your friend. I wouldn't even worry about modifiers on Waltzes.

[Callisto]

Yeah not important at all, just if you're worried about min/maxing and have the gear/open slots.

[Amele]

Switch to Pole Grip.
Grab some Sea Gorget(s) for WSes.
There is no way you are at the accuracy cap also, so unless you are wearing Shura just because you don't lose the eva/agi (which is situationally valid), it's gonna be lower damage than Haub.
Any other upgrades are likely obvious and expensive/harder to obtain.
Toss Ushi, that thing has 0 use since Sekkanoki. Soboro is /rng /dnc only...hope you aren't using it other times. :/

I feel like you might be underestimating soboro, but I would need to do more work on it before I can really state one way or the other (short version is that at ~12 fstr (around 110ttl str for say, typical level 81 merit mobs) soboro will do basically the same tp mode dps as hagun (again, tentatively because I haven't run all the numbers) - and will weaponskill significantly more frequently.

so then it's a matter of determining if the increased ws rate makes up for the generally crappy ws damage; considering *how much* of a sam's weaponskill damage comes from application of WSC+FSTR vs D and fTP I think it'll be something like, sobo will do about 65% per hit but about 60% more often..


obviously this doesn't negate the need to own a hagun since it's a staple weapon for sam, but versus soboro in merit-style content it gets alot fuzzier.

w/rt to ushi: I'd drop it too, if your only source of TP is meditate, it will take ~5 minutes to get to 300 and sekka will be up by the time you need to burn it at which point sekka+hagun will beat sekka+ushi.

[Callisto]

Almost forgot about this for SAM body as well, if you don't want to lose evasion but still want Hauby-ish stats, it's a nice option other than D.Body and saves you 50 HP for 10 Atk:

http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/...7s_Harness.png

[FailureMidgard]

I feel like you might be underestimating soboro, but I would need to do more work on it before I can really state one way or the other (short version is that at ~12 fstr (around 110ttl str for say, typical level 81 merit mobs) soboro will do basically the same tp mode dps as hagun (again, tentatively because I haven't run all the numbers) - and will weaponskill significantly more frequently.

so then it's a matter of determining if the increased ws rate makes up for the generally crappy ws damage; considering *how much* of a sam's weaponskill damage comes from application of WSC+FSTR vs D and fTP I think it'll be something like, sobo will do about 65% per hit but about 60% more often..


obviously this doesn't negate the need to own a hagun since it's a staple weapon for sam, but versus soboro in merit-style content it gets alot fuzzier.

w/rt to ushi: I'd drop it too, if your only source of TP is meditate, it will take ~5 minutes to get to 300 and sekka will be up by the time you need to burn it at which point sekka+hagun will beat sekka+ushi.

I feel most people overestimate Soboro greatly. The extent of my testing is parsing for a short bit in a party with Hagun, then switching to Soboro and playing as similarly as I can. Then I've also watched other players switch off Soboro when I asked them to (not even to a Hagun), and watched their dmg go up switching to awful weapons including Ushi.

As far as the math goes:

TP Bonus is a +20% dmg bonus roughly.
At 110 str/12 fstr, Hagun's base damage is another ~25% damage increase.

These 2 increases are multiplicative, so you're actually looking at ~50% increase in damage over Soboro. This is also working with the assumption that you are sitting exactly at the fstr cap for Soboro and no higher or lower. If you go lower, Hagun's base dmg will actually have a bigger impact. If you go higher, Hagun not being weapon rank capped will up both auto-swing DPS and WS dmg.

Furthermore, using a Soboro makes you essentially lose 10% DA from /war 5% DA from a Brutal, and 2% DA from Pole Strap. This is a ~17% increase in auto-swing damage and WS frequency.
Also, using a Soboro will never see the increase in WSes that you are citing. You break 100 TP insanely often, and you hit 100 TP when the mob is at 4% often as well. Also, meditate should be factored in somehow because that will be a sizeable benefit to Hagun as well (esp with both meditate pieces + 2.5min meditate timer).

Finally, Soboro spam feeds the mob TP. Sometimes this isn't an issue, but I've seen parties with 2 Soboro Sams on Mamool, and it really wasn't pretty at all.

Edit: Added following Summary on #s and fixed a mistake (I said polearm instead of pole strap!)
Hagun should be doing 50%+ more damage than Soboro per weaponskill. (So your 65% # is near correct).
However, I don't think a Soboro will WS more than 25-30% more often than a Hagun (1.45-1.15)/1.15 is my rough estimation.
These #s ignore the TP Soboro feeds, ignore the fact that meditate will lower the ratio on WSes a bit further (prob push it down to the 20-25 range), and assume a -perfect- fSTR value for Soboro.

I haven't actually checked these TP rates, just going off practice on what I see my TP values at when I try to WS as often as possible with Soboro. They do about match up with the overall damage difference I have seen when I switch between the 2 weapons, however.

[Amele]

I feel most people overestimate Soboro greatly. (clipped to reduce post size)

As far as the math goes:

TP Bonus is a +20% dmg bonus roughly.
At 110 str/12 fstr, Hagun's base damage is another ~25% damage increase.

(clipped to reduce post size)

soboro's attack rate is about 1.9x swings/avg a round, not 1.45. * assumes 30/50/20 distribution. - so this gives a 'raw' of 65% more frequent - once you add in the meditate (fully merited) you get the original number I quoted.

this was all just back of the envelope work because it's meant as an impetus to take a closer look and not as a definite 'this is better/worse' judgment. - which is why I didn't bother to estimate 'waste' in ws rates or handle the fTP boost from the waste.


anyway, your numbers are pretty consistent with mine (I came up with ~65% per hit discrepancy in tp mode rather than 50%, but this was basically washed by the differing swing rates). I just think that given how close soboro and hagun are on paper, it deserves controlled tests - honestly I think soboro used correctly is probably closer to hagun than alot of people tend to believe - and that too many people switch away from it too quickly.

[FailureMidgard]

soboro's attack rate is about 1.9x swings/avg a round, not 1.45. * assumes 30/50/20 distribution. - so this gives a 'raw' of 65% more frequent - once you add in the meditate (fully merited) you get the original number I quoted.

this was all just back of the envelope work because it's meant as an impetus to take a closer look and not as a definite 'this is better/worse' judgment. - which is why I didn't bother to estimate 'waste' in ws rates or handle the fTP boost from the waste.


anyway, your numbers are pretty consistent with mine (I came up with ~65% per hit discrepancy in tp mode rather than 50%, but this was basically washed by the differing swing rates). I just think that given how close soboro and hagun are on paper, it deserves controlled tests - honestly I think soboro used correctly is probably closer to hagun than alot of people tend to believe - and that too many people switch away from it too quickly.

To clarify, I was saying Hagun does 50% more damage than Soboro per WS. +50% is the same as 66.6%. I'm saying if Soboro does a 100dmg WS, that WS is 150 dmg with Hagun, 100/150 is the same % you got.

I may later try to get some actual parses/#s for some of this (as I said, I have witnessed different weapons back-to-back, but never with actual control), but I think regardless of that fact, you're feeding the mob double the TP for similar damage at best. Even when you are doing something that subtle blow isn't really a big deal on, the enemy's TP gain in this amount -does- affect things. From birds to mamool to gears to random limbus mobs, most enemies that are scary are scary because of their TP moves (and then things like Feather Tickle or Restoral directly counter your damage even if it isn't harmful to you), and giving them double the TP doesn't seem like a good call.
And I still think Soboro won't keep up very well at all in practice.

[Jaffar]

Oh, and any suggestions for solo SAM/DNC gear?

Basically your typical tp & ws set, then a defensive gear set for when TE is down. I typically use:

Arhat +1 head
pcc (or possibly eva torque)
Brutal/Cassie (since i have some mp merits)
Arhat Gi +1
Rajas/jelly
Boxer's
Swift belt
Myochin Haidate +1
Fumas/Suzaku /AF1 feet

[quannum]

assuming:
overwhelm=5
bladebash=1
shikikyo=1
ikishoten=0

where to put the last 3 merits?

[Wolfknight]

assuming:
overwhelm=5
bladebash=1
shikikyo=1
ikishoten=0

where to put the last 3 merits?

personally 5 blade bash cause only time I really find shik usefully is at HNMs between windows but I don't camp HNMs so I dropped it.