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  1. #1
    Sea Torques
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    Opinions for Job Adjustments

    This is a form letter I'd like to eventually get as many people as possible to agree to, and eventually spam SE's suggestion box with it. If they see it's coming from a large number of players, perhaps it might do something. Perhaps not. But I have time to waste; I play MMO's after all. Warning: This is a rather long post.

    Read over the changes suggested below. If you disagree with one, say so, and make your reasoning clear. We need to phrase things in a way that will get the Devs to listen, and Devs usually don't like being told their ideas suck. So butter them up, describe the issue being faced, and a suggested change that would remedy it. I know there are a lot of suggestions out there, but let's try to narrow it down to as few as possible, to better the chances of the changes sounding reasonable. I probably have too many listed for some of the jobs.

    Dear SE,

    I've enjoyed FFXI for a long time now, as it has a lot going for it. Thank you for all your hard work! We'd like to get a lot more enjoyment out of the game, and we have heard from you that there are things you'd like to see differently, with regards to how jobs are used. We'd like to bring to your attention some issues, and what we as the community have come to, with regard to suggestions that could greatly improve the enjoyment of those that play these jobs.


    WHM: While good, WHM itself doesn't bring that many unique tools to healing in later levels, outside of Raise 3, Regen 3, Cure V and Curaga III and IV(the latter two aren't used much). This stems partly from the fact that it's status cures are sub-able, and regular cures are just as potent whether as a Subjob or main job. In addition, Scholar recently obtained the ability to AoE status cures 10x more often than WHM. To remedy this, add AoE status cures (ie, Blindnaga) or Divine Veil on it's own 1-3 min seperate Job Ability specifically for status cures.

    BLM: BLMs have fallen in desire for xp parties, due to the issue that they are limited by MP, and thus can't keep up with melee damage dealers. IF Skillchains's are going to be made attractive again, then BLMs would benefit greatly from a passive ability to return 25-50% MP on Magic Bursts, or other ways for them to maintain their MP pool, so they can keep up and not slow a party down. Higher ranks of Conserve MP or Aspir II would help. Also, greatly lower resists on a Magic Bursted spell. More mobs that are vulnerable to magic like Puddings, so BLMs have more areas to merit on, would be nice as well. *NOTE: it could be said that SE meant for /SCH to solve the BLM MP issue; it does, but it appears BLMs really don't want to lose Stoneskin/blink.*

    THF: One of the main issues with THF, is the fact that they feed a mob a lot of TP. The playerbase would like to see THF get several levels of native Subtle Blow, to help remedy this issue. The other issue, is that SA and assassin-TA are quite often lost and not used, due to how a mob may turn, or not being lined up right. We'd like a change so that if you're not lined up correctly, the SATA buff stays on instead of going away. Only a correctly lined up hit will actually use and consume the buffs. The buff should still wear off after a certain amount of time.

    MNK - Like SAM was previously, it's not used as a sub due to poor defensive options. SE adjusted SAM that made it more attractive as a sub, could the same be done for MNK? To make MNK more attractive as a sub, emphasize countering attacks more, with more Job abilities or traits that enhance this aspect. Reducing the cooldown on Chakra to 3min or less, would help as well.

    BST: A BST does not bring much to a party or high level boss fight, due to pets being capped and thus not as good as other DPS classes. To encourage more BSTs to party and participate in high level fights, uncap most (if not all) jug pets and reskin the current HQ jug pets that look like normal mobs to more unique styles, similiar to how Courier Carrie looks different from normal crabs. Pet TP abilities generally aren't used, because many of them are aoe or not useful. Thus, there needs to be some ability to use a BST's TP to force pet to use a specific TP ability, and/or additional pet commands related to TP usage of the pet. Also, it would help greatly if Snarl could be made to work with charmed pets as well.

    DRK: Like SAM was previously, it's not used as a sub due to no defensive options. SE adjusted SAM that made it more attractive as a sub, could the same be done for DRK? One suggestion is an "Anti-provoke" ability or spell; a 30 second cooldown that lowers your enmity low for awhile. This would help the job as a main and sub.

    SMN: It's been stated by SE that they want players to leave their avatars out, and they are disappointed this isn't happening. The primary reason is the high perpetuation cost versus the low melee and TP damage gained. Adding enspells to the avatars to increase the damage they deal, would help encourage players to leave them out, while also upping the damage gained via TP when using a magical BP. Avatar buff spells currently have a very small radius where they can buff, so they miss party members often; an increase to the range of these spells would help prevent MP from being wasted. An extra BP command like Rage, but for the LvII and IV spells, would also encourage a summoner to leave their avatar out to build TP for them. Normally, a summoner doesn't bother using the LvII and IV, preferring to use their Rage command for a physical attack.

    BLU: SE did a great job with BLU, as it is highly balanced and well-liked by the community. The only adjustments suggested, would be to smooth it's use, and encourage use of more of their lesser used abilities. Azure Lore doesn't currently seem effective enough for a 2 hour ability; the players really like the idea of opening a BLU's entire spellbook for its duration in addition to whatever current effects it has. Also, the following spells could benefit greatly from an extended duration so they are used more often: Amplification, Saline Coat, Reactor Cool, Plasma Charge. As for new spells, most BLU's would like the following: Mighty Guard(protect and shell for party), Battery Charge(self MP restore), White Wind,and Fang Rush. Multi-hit Blue spells currently give a lot of TP to their targets, as much as 10 per hit. As a result, it's highly punishing to the group when the mobs use stronger TP attacks more often. As a suggestion, lower the amount of TP a mob gains through multi-hit spells; perhaps 5 per hit.

    PUP: The Puppetmaster is generally seen as less useful and powerful than other jobs, due to lack of the master's power and lack of gear choices. While we are waiting on seeing what new improvements SE would add to the puppet, we would like to see PUP's Hand to Hand skill raised to B or B+. Asuran Fists isn't needed, but a simple skill cap raise would help them compete with other dps classes in higher end content. Giving the PUP more gear choices in the form of Homam would also help.

    DNC: Dancer is another good job, but is seen as less powerful against tougher enemies such as HNMs. Their abilities are dependant upon TP, and this can be hard to generate without giving mobs large amounts of TP in return. Thus, it would seem a good idea to give DNC a passive Auto-regain that gives 1 TP per tick, and/or a TP samba. Steps are currently limited, so adding a dispelling Step and/or more status effect steps would be nice. However, a bigger issue is the lack of gear choices. It's generally felt that Dancer would benefit greatly from being added to the Skadi and Homam sets, to give them more end-game gear choices.


    We don't expect all these changes, but we feel there is a good selection here, for the SE devs to have an idea of what the playerbase feels about the jobs, and what adjustments to make that would be well-received by the community. Thanks for your time and consideration!

    Sincerely,
    Your Name

    Alright, now tear it apart! I'd like to aim for the mass delivery to happen 4 weeks from now. This gives them time to read it over, and perhaps make some changes in time for the next patch in 3 months, and perhaps the following one as well. I'm also expecting at least one TL;DR post, so don't let me down!

    Edit: Removed SCH, and quite a bit from WHM. Considering removing BLM and BLU, to limit things to the jobs who need updates the most.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Petition for Job Adjustments

    What if I don't agree with all of your ideas or points?

    It's crazy to think SE will listen to ideas so specific... this coming from someone who basically makes specific suggestions all the time. It's for fun. Also online petitions. Perhaps it would have been a better idea to stick to that thread in newbie.
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  3. #3

    Re: Petition for Job Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenji
    mass spamming
    Good luck getting job adjustments by being annoying.
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  4. #4

    Re: Petition for Job Adjustments

    Everyone knows these things don't work unless they're posted on petitiononline.com
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  5. #5
    St. Fiat
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    Re: Petition for Job Adjustments

    Please go away. Thank you.

    Edit:

    With the rise of the RDM healer for merit parties, the white mage is losing it's shine as the premier healing class. This stems partly from the fact that it's status cures are sub-able, and regular cures are just as potent whether as a Subjob or main job. Also, due to lack of native MP regen vs. an RDM, a WHM can have MP issues. To remedy this, add hastega and AoE status cures at a high level.
    It's not the game's fault you're a shitty whm.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Petition for Job Adjustments

    Some of the ideas aren't bad, although to be honest I've heard pretty much all of them before, I think the biggest issue is that all jobs don't really need adjustments, whm and blm he lists some good, albeit unoriginal ideas, but jobs like brd rdm and nin already are very effective within the current game mechanics.

    My other favorite part is when he says drg isn't wanted for merits because they are limited to spear which isn't as good on most mobs... because NOBODY merits on birds lol...
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  7. #7
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    This is now a thread about opinions for job adjustments, after reading through most of it I do not agree with many of the requested changes. You are entitled to your opinion but I seriously doubt many people will agree with them, thus I dont believe you should even think of this as a potential thought for a petition, but more of a general discussion on them. After that I leave you to the sharks of advanced.
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  8. #8
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    If you've read it all, then you know I specifically asked for feedback on the changes. Most of them I gathered from other conversations, threads, other people. No, you don't have to agree. You just have to be intelligent enough to read the entire thread a well-reasoned response with regard to specific changes. If you can't do that, then this really isn't an advanced forum at all, is it?

    And by mass spamming, I mean each person sends in one. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

    Edit: This was thread was made with the idea of eventually submitting a petition that everyone could go along with. If it's going to be reduced to opinions, it may as well be a duplicate of the other thread, and thus not yet worthy of it's own thread. Thus, this one could be deleted. Or the other one locked, so only one thread is going. Either is fine with me.

    But if we can't even agree and compromise to some changes, then there isn't any way any of us will get the changes we feel are needed.
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  9. #9
    St. Fiat
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenji
    If you've read it all, then you know I specifically asked for feedback on the changes. Most of them I gathered from other conversations, threads, other people. No, you don't have to agree. You just have to be intelligent enough to read the entire thread a well-reasoned response with regard to specific changes. If you can't do that, then this really isn't an advanced forum at all, is it?

    And by mass spamming, I mean each person sends in one. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.
    Bad ideas are not worth discussing, good ideas are.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenji
    If you've read it all, then you know I specifically asked for feedback on the changes. Most of them I gathered from other conversations, threads, other people. No, you don't have to agree. You just have to be intelligent enough to read the entire thread a well-reasoned response with regard to specific changes. If you can't do that, then this really isn't an advanced forum at all, is it?

    And by mass spamming, I mean each person sends in one. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

    Edit: This was thread was made with the idea of eventually submitting a petition that everyone could go along with. If it's going to be reduced to opinions, it may as well be a duplicate of the other thread, and thus not yet worthy of it's own thread. Thus, this one could be deleted. Or the other one locked, so only one thread is going. Either is fine with me.



    But if we can't even agree and compromise to some changes, then there isn't any way any of us will get the changes we feel are needed.
    I think Sonomaa just meant to explain to you why the thread name was changed. No need to take offense to anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
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  11. #11
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleya
    Bad ideas are not worth discussing, good ideas are.
    This is your time to shine, then. Let us know your good ideas. Unless suggesting job changes are bad ideas?

    I think Sonomaa just meant to explain to you why the thread name was changed. No need to take offense to anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
    Oh, absolutely. I have no problems with the name change, although my goal was an eventual petition that most everyone could agree to. I have no problems with it being merely discussion of opinions at the moment.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    Well for starters you might want to take into consideration that some of the jobs will just have to stay the way they are, or you are not going to cure any of the balance issues.
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  13. #13
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by XxSlusherxx
    Well for starters you might want to take into consideration that some of the jobs will just have to stay the way they are, or you are not going to cure any of the balance issues.
    That's partially why War, Mnk, and Sam aren't up there. The list is rather long, so cutting a few jobs out, and reducing suggested changes on some others is a possibility. I'm open to suggestions.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    PLDs are forced to sub NIN? Personally, I like subbing NIN. I was one of those PLDs who refused to level NIN out of principle, because I was such a hardcore /WAR fan - until i actuall did level NIN and tried it out. PLDs aren't forced to do a damn thing, people still killed HNMs before /NIN became the norm. It's just that /NIN is so damn good, that it makes more sense. As for regaining MP with damage taken - HI2U Ethereal Earring.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    tl;dr

    Well, I did scan the bit about DRG, which is a pretty half baked idea. The part where you allege that polearm has a disadvantage on some unspecified number of exp mobs was particularly amusing, since you neglected to mention that rng or thf might have the same handicap.

    These suggestion threads are lame. No one cares, really. The aesthetic of the job implementation is alot less important than the numbers it actually puts out, which is why these threads are maligned like idiotic fanfiction.
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  16. #16
    I have no idea tbh
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    OP writes:

    Alright, now tear it apart!
    quit whining; that's exactly what is happening.
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  17. #17
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    Now we're gettin' somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexa
    PLDs are forced to sub NIN? Personally, I like subbing NIN. I was one of those PLDs who refused to level NIN out of principle, because I was such a hardcore /WAR fan - until i actuall did level NIN and tried it out. PLDs aren't forced to do a damn thing, people still killed HNMs before /NIN became the norm. It's just that /NIN is so damn good, that it makes more sense. As for regaining MP with damage taken - HI2U Ethereal Earring.
    That was a suggestion pulled out of the other thread, so I thought I'd include it. Personally, Paladins seem relatively fine, although I know people have complained about the bias against blood tanking, and wondering what to do to get it back. Not a biggie, I can pull off the paladin changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadsuane
    Well, I did scan the bit about DRG, which is a pretty half baked idea. The part where you allege that polearm has a disadvantage on some unspecified number of exp mobs was particularly amusing, since you neglected to mention that rng or thf might have the same handicap.
    Which could be overcome if the penetration trait is sub 37. RNG generally doesn't have a problem with invites, regardless of mob type. THF can, which is why I pulled some suggestions from other threads and put them up there for THF. Some else suggested traps for THF. From a software development standpoint, it would seem a bit more time-consuming to develop that, and I'm trying to keep the development angle as easy as possible.

    Other than that, Wyvern commands are something SE hinted was coming.

    And Aerides, I'm actually happy about it.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    Resisting the urge to tell you to go back to zam.
    I want to know why you believe such a petition is necessary?
    They have been making changes and additions, there are more changes and additions coming.
    Why is it important to make another 'zomg everything is broken' complaint?

    And to be quite honest. I think most of your ideas are unnecessary, asking to be overpowered, childish, or simply dead horses.

    With childish I mean making souleater only be usable with scythe and gsword ... if its such a big deal, just go do the BCNM for the club ... a few hundred times ... no offense, but it is a childish notion that you want to 'level the playing field for drks'.

    I don't believe brds will appreciate you for thinking they need to carry more instruments around. They already have enough inventory issues without getting extra instruments thrown at them.

    We all know pup sucks, it's the new drg. Does SE (really) need to be told?

    There I tried being constructive.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenji
    DRK: DRK are currently a 2nd-tier DPS, and their spells aren't used due to lack of effectiveness in most situations; they also aren't a usual target for MP regen abilities like Refresh. To improve this, add endrain and enaspir spells to allow them to get MP back, and HP back from Soul Eater. Also, Tier 3 nukes would encourage them to use their spells for MB. Blood weapon is also seen as not that useful, except with the use of the Kraken club. As a suggestion for improvement, adjust it to last 1 min with a slight accuracy increase and also enable it to work with all physical WS's, but adjust Souleater to only work with Scythes and Great Swords, the DRK's 2 priemer weapons, to encourage their use. It is felt in many fights that victory can be easily obtained by using a large number of DRK's with Kraken clubs, and that this is not conducive to challenging play.

    I don't agree with all of this, just because you adjust souleater to only work with scythes/greatswords then drk's would just switch to Bahamut Zaghnal which are only a few 1000 dmg behind Krakens when built/merited correctly for it which isn't bad for a free common weapon from lolbahamut.

    DRK's can hold their own against other melee's very easily in exp now after the 2h update, I wouldn't call them a 2nd-tier DD by any means. Tier 3 nukes? meh I rather see us get more spells like dreadspikes that temporarly do things like buff attack etc.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Opinions for Job Adjustments

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenji
    BLM: BLMs have fallen in desire for xp parties, due to the issue that they are limited by MP, and the lack of SC's in the current xp parties. IF SC's are going to be made attractive again, then BLMs would benefit greatly from a passive ability to return 25-50% MP on Magic Bursts. Also, greatly lower resists on a Magic Bursted spell.
    The problem with this is that meripo mobs don't live long enough to build TP, SC/MB on. And if they did, it wouldn't be worth killing them becasue, well, it just is longer than other options...
    IF you wanted to make SCs attractive for exp/meripo PT again then you would need a mob with enough HP to build TP on, SC/MB AND give enough exp at the end of the kill to make all of that worth while. Otherwise you just have another Qutrub with shitty exp.
    The SC/MB idea is nice, but only for HNM-type things. Better use of /SCH, more manaburn camps, and Aspir II would keep me happy as BLM.

    I don't even exp on BLM any more though, so what do I care.

    in before the, "you care enough to post" lulz
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