Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Tempyst]

Would've been interesting if FFXI never had a subjob system to begin with.

I'd like to see a zone/instance where everyone participating has permanent, uncurable SJ pathos.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

BLMs would sure die fast

[miokomioko]

BLMs who are too retarded to hold back a bit and manage hate (aka: most BLMs) would sure die fast

fix'd?

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Wait you mean BLMs have other spells other than AM2?
WHAT ELSE HAVEN'T YOU TOLD ME!!?

[Shassira]

make mobs immune to slow,stun,sleep.

If it cons "Impossible to Gauge":
1) you can't CFH
2) It doesn't sleep

This alone would have made me stay in endgame.

I don't understand what's with this ridiculous recurring idea of making mobs inmune to different effects. Don't people realize that this spells are there so that the game doesn't simply end up being reduced to auto attacking, WSing and casting Utsusemi? It's already simplistic right now, why do you even want to simplify it more?

Sleep, Stun, Slow, Blind, Bind and any debuffing or related spell is there to give you control over how a fight flows. Removing the use of these spells completely from fights that matter would make it so that the options are reduced to ridiculous points. All mages would heal and all melee would hit. Let's make the mobs inmune to weapon skills now that we are at it, because going in to WS after getting TP from another monster is pretty cheap too. In fact, let's make it so that even auto attack doesn't work! Now that'd be a challenge, you'd have to survive 1 hour and the mob would die from auto dot!

Seriously, think about what the problem is deeply, stop looking at the surface. That X mob that you think is so easy because it can be elegied isn't easy because he can be debuffed. It's easy because his AI sucks. Yes, his artificial intelligence. It's easy because the monster isn't smart enough to cast Diaga just before he weaponskills. Is easy because he doesn't count your shadows and decide to act accordingly. It's easy because he casts poisonga before casting sleepga. It's easy because it doesn't stun or sleep a mnk 2houring it when it sees it 2hour, etcetera.

Dumbing the game to the point where only the basic things in it will work is ridiculous to say the least. Make the mobs smart. Hell, make a Dynamis with super smart mobs (and less links to compensate?) and you'll see some fun. It's about mobs acting more like players and less like robots where the challenge is, not in striping the game of everything that makes it fun.

And as i said before, if you are so dying for a challenge where mobs resist everything, go fight your monsters nude. There's your challenge how you like it, it's already in game... nothing is forcing you to play the game with gear now, is it?

[Araius]

Massively harder unsleepable Dynamis mobs + xp loss = nobody does Dynamis. Now if there were no xp loss, I agree that would be hella fun.

[Max™]

Massively harder unsleepable Dynamis mobs + xp loss = nobody does Dynamis. Now if there were no xp loss, I agree that would be a lot like Campaign at times, with about the same drop rates..

[Araius]

Massively harder unsleepable Dynamis mobs + xp loss = nobody does Dynamis. Now if there were no xp loss, I agree that would be a lot like Campaign at times, with about the same drop rates..

True story :rocl:

[Bonisagius]

A question about the idea of a utsusemi nerf, How bad do you think the reaction would be if they only increased the recast time on Ichi and Ni by 1.5 - 2x their current respective recast times if they also implemented the following?

A) Fixed the def/vit issue. Maybe make def = (1 + Sum of def of equips) * (1 + (.05 * vit/2)) + level or fix the equations some other way

B) Made a number of cheaps ways to manufacture/obtain various shurikens.

I admit, I doubt the improvements listed above would curb the situation but it is something to think about. Seeing that every change effects holistically, one should avoid falling into the irrational rut of focusing on the introduced disadvantages in an update. And sometimes you gotta take a hit here and there for the sake of making the game better on the whole for everyone (ah sacrifice and compassion, what noble virtues you are).

[The Q]

A question about the idea of a utsusemi nerf, How bad do you think the reaction would be if they only increased the recast time on Ichi and Ni by 1.5 - 2x their current respective recast times if they also implemented the following?

A) Fixed the def/vit issue. Maybe make def = (1 + Sum of def of equips) * (1 + (.05 * vit/2)) + level or fix the equations some other way

B) Made a number of cheaps ways to manufacture/obtain various shurikens.

I admit, I doubt the improvements listed above would curb the situation but it is something to think about. Seeing that every change effects holistically, one should avoid falling into the irrational rut of focusing on the introduced disadvantages in an update. And sometimes you gotta take a hit here and there for the sake of making the game better on the whole for everyone (ah sacrifice and compassion, what noble virtues you are).

If defensive issues were fixed to any significant degree, leaving Utsusemi on /NIN (NOT MAIN) unchanged in effect, regardless of recast time, would still be overpowering. The only thing that would change in that situation would be damage taken when a hit is actually taken, but not so much having to take more hits. This would make PLD/NIN the OMEGA TANK if it could keep hate. Making Utsu an improved blink on sub would be a much better solution in this situation.

Keep in mind that there should absolutely not be any change to Utsusemi on Ninja as a main job, regardless of any defensive changes.

The manufacture and availability of shurikens should be addressed irregardless of the Utsusemi/Defense debate. It's the bastard child of all weapon skills, and practically ignored by SE, yet Ninja has the highest skill in it. Thrown weaponskills should be implimented as well, but SE already said that's just too hard for them to code.

[spooky]

Massively harder unsleepable Dynamis mobs + xp loss = nobody does Dynamis. Now if there were no xp loss, I agree that would be hella fun.

People still die in Dynamis?

[Araius]

Massively harder unsleepable Dynamis mobs + xp loss = nobody does Dynamis. Now if there were no xp loss, I agree that would be hella fun.

People still die in Dynamis?

They would if you couldn't sleep anything

[spooky]

Massively harder unsleepable Dynamis mobs + xp loss = nobody does Dynamis. Now if there were no xp loss, I agree that would be hella fun.

People still die in Dynamis?

They would if you couldn't sleep anything

The way I read "Now if there were no xp loss" was refering to current Dynamis. Hence my comment.
w/e though

[SamanosukeShiva]

can't stun NMs? Fire build GoH tanking?

[neochaos]

Whoever dies in cities/beau dynamis fails :/ Dyna-xarc is understandable seeing as for some god-awful reason pullers ALWAYS get links and demons are a lot harder to kill/harder to sleep in respect to city mobs. All that aside


If they nerfed utsusemi, they would have to raise the DEF/VIT crap, but as we all know, SE wont raise it high enough to be worthwhile, just "higher". So by way of an utsusemi nerf, any possible way of tanking efficiently has been nulled, except for a NIN. At this point tho if SE nerfs anything, then I can only assume they are trying to drive players away, lol. We want new, better, cooler things, not a fucking nerf.

[aru]

but as we all know, SE wont raise it high enough to be worthwhile

and what exactly is "worthwhile"? on average, what percentage of hits will utsusemi absorb? 75%? 80+%? all while being able to wear your best DD gear with berserk active... will the player base accept less? i dont see how SE could balance def to be even close to being utsusemi's retarded relative without breaking the game, we'll just have pld/nin super tanks destroying everything (even if utsu was sj nerfed), war/blu in koenig eating defence food would be indestructable.

at what point is def strong enough to say "forget /nin; /war,/blu,/pld would all be a much better choice to reduce my damage taken", but not strong enough to break the game?

[Lucavi]

at what point is def strong enough to say "forget /nin; /war,/blu,/pld would all be a much better choice to reduce my damage taken", but not strong enough to break the game?

Other MMORPGs seem to have introduced a worthy and acceptable balance between defense, gear, and not breaking the game in terms of how much you can dish out and take, so why do we always allow SE to just "get away with" not having a balance? I could see if every single MMO out there had some glaring flaw in the way that defense and damage mitigation works, but that's simply not the case.

The system is flawed, and its obviously not that hard to fix if just about everyone else is doing it right. You don't need to make the system a clone of anyone else, but you DO need to make a system that doesn't rely on blinking away all forms of damage that aren't AOE. SE shot themselves in the foot when they created a dual-job system, without properly thinking about subjob application in terms of both offense AND defense. /war isn't the be-all, end-all subjob for melee either, because they still take a shitload of damage, and defender is all but useless unless you already have a substantial amount of defense.

Its probably far too late to change anything, because people have been stuck with a broken system for so long that introducing any sweeping change is likely to be met with resistance. You keep people in squalor for long enough, and they begin to complain if you come by offering a solution -- they've become used to living in the squalor.

[The Q]

at what point is def strong enough to say "forget /nin; /war,/blu,/pld would all be a much better choice to reduce my damage taken", but not strong enough to break the game?

When PLD doesn't get 2shotted? Seriously it should be a big red alarm-mounted fucking sign when PLD, the epitome of physical defense needs to sub Ninja to survive.

Ninja sub is broke as hell. It offers the ultimate offense with the ultimate defense. There's no real downside or trade-off to subbing it. At least in a situation like you pointed out there would be a trade-off between more offense or more defense depending on sub and in /war's case using either berserk or defender.

Right now though, even with ninja sub being broken, our ability to defend ourselves is far beyond that brokeness which forces the reliance of /nin for any survivability.

Lucavi is right though, people are stuck in their ways and see any change as bad even if it is for the better.

[Lucavi]

Lucavi is right though

I always make a habit of thanking those who agree. Thank you.

[Spider-Dan]

[Other MMORPGs seem to have introduced a worthy and acceptable balance between defense, gear, and not breaking the game in terms of how much you can dish out and take, so why do we always allow SE to just "get away with" not having a balance?

Other MMORPGs don't have Utsusemi, or really anything close to it. Blink tanking is something that's pretty unique to FFXI.

It is the existence of that spell that makes it complicated to "correct" DEF/VIT. And it's far too late in the game's development to try to rebalance the entire game around the removal (/drastic nerfing) of that spell. You might as well try to make mages get along without refresh.

You don't need to make the system a clone of anyone else, but you DO need to make a system that doesn't rely on blinking away all forms of damage that aren't AOE.

Why?

Why is it objectively better that this game use the same bloodtanking dynamics as everything else? You can argue that it limits subjob versatility, but those other games don't even have subjobs to begin with, so at worst, it's equal.