Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Priran]

If not, then what is the point of this argument?

it's been a while, some people have begun to forget what schadenfreude feels like.

[The Q]

So after some thought I have come to The One Solution:

Give every job an Utsusemi-clone ability. All of them.

[Kenji]

Honestly, I just hope Squenix ignores every post in this thread with the word "utsusemi" in it.

The game is better off now with bloodtanking taking a back seat to shadows. All these "solutions" (read: wildly speculative nerfs) to utsusemi would do nothing but make the game more tedious and stupid.

Answer this question: with utsusemi as it is now, do your mages have so little to do that you feel they need to spend more time/MP on cures?

If not, then what is the point of this argument?

I think you're looking at the wrong question. If this thread is any indication, there are a number of people unhappy with the Utsu situation as is. A segment of the population will start pushing for a change. If change is coming, it would be beneficial to try and direct that change to something acceptable.

Otherwise, you end up in a situation that harms Ninja mains from tanking.

The question is: What hits so hard, that the fight is impossible without blinking? When I left, Jorgy and the other 2 wyrms had been introduced. Beyond them, what else hits hard enough that blood tanking is impossible? HNM aren't the end-all of the game. Plenty of PLD/WARs tanked things in Dynamis, Limbus, etc.

I don't think a VIT/Defense issue is at stake here. Just the /nin, how hard mobs hit, and the aggro lost from being hit. To address those issues:

1. Tie CHR more into hate loss. High CHR means you lose very little hate when struck; less than a shadow.
2. On some harder hitting mobs, perhaps tone their damage a bit, or adjust the mob damage formula.
3. Utsu with a nin sub now working like blink, in that it only has a chance to absorb an attack. And *any* multi-hit technique wipes all shadows from a sub (Ninja mains are unaffected).

A lot of main abilities are nerfed when used as subs. Ninja are masters of ninjitsu; a holy white mage should not be able to sub it and become just as effective.

Does this affect soloing? Yes. Who cares? FFXI wasn't a solo game to begin with, and I'd argue that forced partying made the game better than it could have. The skilled players will still be able to solo. Unskilled will emo-spiral and whine.

[neochaos]

So after some thought I have come to The One Solution:

Give every job an Utsusemi-clone ability. All of them.

RDM/WAR with utsusemi = hi2u new tank (well under the impression we're getting both ichi AND ni

[The Q]

Honestly, I just hope Squenix ignores every post in this thread with the word "utsusemi" in it.

The game is better off now with bloodtanking taking a back seat to shadows. All these "solutions" (read: wildly speculative nerfs) to utsusemi would do nothing but make the game more tedious and stupid.

Answer this question: with utsusemi as it is now, do your mages have so little to do that you feel they need to spend more time/MP on cures?

If not, then what is the point of this argument?

I think you're looking at the wrong question. If this thread is any indication, there are a number of people unhappy with the Utsu situation as is. A segment of the population will start pushing for a change. If change is coming, it would be beneficial to try and direct that change to something acceptable.

Otherwise, you end up in a situation that harms Ninja mains from tanking.

The question is: What hits so hard, that the fight is impossible without blinking? When I left, Jorgy and the other 2 wyrms had been introduced. Beyond them, what else hits hard enough that blood tanking is impossible? HNM aren't the end-all of the game. Plenty of PLD/WARs tanked things in Dynamis, Limbus, etc.

I don't think a VIT/Defense issue is at stake here. Just the /nin, how hard mobs hit, and the aggro lost from being hit. To address those issues:

1. Tie CHR more into hate loss. High CHR means you lose very little hate when struck; less than a shadow.
2. On some harder hitting mobs, perhaps tone their damage a bit, or adjust the mob damage formula.
3. Utsu with a nin sub now working like blink, in that it only has a chance to absorb an attack. And *any* multi-hit technique wipes all shadows from a sub (Ninja mains are unaffected).

A lot of main abilities are nerfed when used as subs. Ninja are masters of ninjitsu; a holy white mage should not be able to sub it and become just as effective.

Does this affect soloing? Yes. Who cares? FFXI wasn't a solo game to begin with, and I'd argue that forced partying made the game better than it could have. The skilled players will still be able to solo. Unskilled will emo-spiral and whine.

Kenji I think that it's a lost cause. SE could adjust/fix the defensive and mob attack issues, but it's unlikely.

There's one thing SE can't fix though, and that's shitty player attitudes.

[Therin]

I just came in and I'm seeing people complain about shadows and fixing the VIT formula. Did I step through a

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdu7xoHU9DA

[Eratosthenes]

There's nothing wrong with the Def/VIT formula. It works fine for player vs. mob or player vs. player, but the problem lies in mob vs. player because all mobs have low attack and high base damage. Take a look at Ballista or Brenner, and you'll see that players with high defense do actually take hits better than players without it. If SE were to go through the game and fix mob stats so that their damage and attack were similar to a player of equal level, we'd see defense actually making a difference.

As far as /NIN and utsusemi, maybe it would be more appropriate to limit ninjutsu casting in some way other than tools and recast time rather than to weaken the effect. Maybe some system of Ninjutsu Points, similar to MP, which would be limited when using /NIN in the same way a mage sub's MP is cut.

[The Q]

I wonder if anyone would be willing to do some damage testing against various situations. Like against xp mobs at different ranges, different NM's and HNM's and such. Do it with differing amounts of armor defense, and none at all.

It'd be nice to investigate this "non"-issue more in depth.

[Isiolia]

1. Tie CHR more into hate loss. High CHR means you lose very little hate when struck; less than a shadow.

Perhaps instead make it amplify +/- enmity gear. Jobs that aren't tanking, yet utilize CHR, probably wouldn't appreciate this. Really, the only people that would are PLDs with Koenig gear (as frankly hardly any other tanking gear has CHR on it anyway).

For blood tanking, I'd maybe put in a Toughness trait (or modify the Defense Bonus trait) with a Phalanx effect. Maybe 10 damage off for first level, +5 more per additional.
Maybe add a -damage% to Defender or something, and perhaps make VE drain more slowly while it's in effect.

[Spider-Dan]

So after some thought I have come to The One Solution:

Give every job an Utsusemi-clone ability. All of them.

...right after you give every job Berserk and Defender, right?

All of the proposed defense buffs+/NIN nerfs seem to rather transparently miss the real impact of their changes, which is that (in a world where utsusemi stops being worthwhile) every job that's subbing NIN now will just sub WAR instead. We will not enter some bold new era of whimsical subjob variety; the default SJ will simply switch from /NIN back to /WAR (which is what it was before people cared about utsusemi).

[The Q]

[quote=Spider-Dan]

So after some thought I have come to The One Solution:

Give every job an Utsusemi-clone ability. All of them.

...right after you give every job Berserk and Defender, right?

All of the proposed defense buffs+/NIN nerfs seem to rather transparently miss the real impact of their changes, which is that (in a world where utsusemi stops being worthwhile) every job that's subbing NIN now will just sub WAR instead. We will not enter some bold new era of whimsical subjob variety; the default SJ will simply switch from /NIN back to /WAR (which is what it was before people cared about utsusemi).[/quote:2v8lwcjj]

So everything is fine as it is?

Are you from the future?

[Spider-Dan]

I think you're looking at the wrong question. If this thread is any indication, there are a number of people unhappy with the Utsu situation as is. A segment of the population will start pushing for a change. If change is coming, it would be beneficial to try and direct that change to something acceptable.

More accurately, a questionably-informed segment of the population is pushing for change for two rather suspect reasons:

1) more challenge - no one said you have to bring a full alliance (or even a full party) to fight $MOB
2) more variety - almost any change that defangs /NIN would simply result in a replacement of /NIN with /WAR, accomplishing nothing

A lot of main abilities are nerfed when used as subs. Ninja are masters of ninjitsu; a holy white mage should not be able to sub it and become just as effective.

So why aren't you pushing for Sleepga to be gimped for RDMs? Or -na to have partial resist rates when used by BLM/WHM? Or 'zerk to give ATK+12.5%/DEF-25% when used by /WAR?

Utsusemi already has two penalties to /NIN (AoE shadow penalty and -1 shadow to Ni), and that alone is more than most buffing spells suffer. AFAIK, every other buffing spell works at least as well when subbed as if you cast it as a naked 37xxx; Ni was specifically given a unique 25% penalty.

[Spider-Dan]

So everything is fine as it is?

It's a hell of a lot better now than it would be if your suggestions were implemented.

The proposed utsu nerf would do nothing to increase net variety, and would serve only to increase the tedium of the game and make refresh just that much more critical (as if it's not important enough already).

[The Q]

Glad we have a time traveler here to tell us how it's gonna be.

[Spider-Dan]

Glad we have a time traveler here to tell us how it's gonna be.

"hay guyz i think they should make it so that every mage has refresh and convert coz that would be alot better"

"that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, GTFO"

"are you from THE FUTURES??? then u dun know how it would be so shut up"

[Kenji]

Eh, back before the Utsu addiction, I saw plenty of subjob variation. DRKs and SAMs subbing THF post 60 for SATA. Melee subbing SAM for Store TP and meditate. And yes, WAR and NIN as well.

I think it's interesting to note, that when the playerbase focuses too much on one SJ, SE has a tendacy to shake things up (hi2uDRG/SAMpentaspam). Which means we may see a /nin nerf regardless of what we say here. SE did say they put DNC and SCH in to give people more SJ options. If those don't end up freeing us from the /nin situation, I can see SE taking other steps.

[fndragon]

Why not tie Utsusemi absorption rate to the user's Ninjutsu skill? If you've got 1/2 ninjutsu skill, your shadows will absorb the hit half of the time. Same effect of blink, more believable route they might take with it.

I mean, this is very advanced navel gasing, but that would seem to solve the "problem" of everybody subbing ninja. The reason people sub ninja in merit parties, as brought up elsewhere, is that DD's are all assuming some of the tanking responsibilities for the mob, thus eliminating the need for a dedicated tank. Which isn't a bad thing if you can get away with it. I don't think there will be any changes to NIN or /NIN and utsusemi anytime soon.

And as for the CHR affecting hate loss... What are you trying to do, KILL all of the BST's out there? >.>

[Max™]

/Dnc offers damage fixing, not mitigation, /Sch offers utility without survivability.

You don't have to nerf Utsu, just provide a viable mitigation alternative, or make mitigation less overbearingly important.

I haven't subbed Nin since Seigan came out, I only use 2h weapons, the 2h weapon buff makes /Sam even sexier than it was, and I was never that impressed with Utsusemi+War Eva to be honest. I'm a little more extreme about it than most, but ask any Drk or Drg or Gaxin War if they'd rather sub Nin than Sam in most any situation.

/Nin isn't the problem, broken mob damage is, fix that, or provide viable alternatives, and /Nin becomes a useful option, like /Whm, /Rdm, /Blm, /Sch for mages all have their places.

[Quizno]

Eh, back before the Utsu addiction, I saw plenty of subjob variation. DRKs and SAMs subbing THF post 60 for SATA. Melee subbing SAM for Store TP and meditate. And yes, WAR and NIN as well.

I think it's interesting to note, that when the playerbase focuses too much on one SJ, SE has a tendacy to shake things up (hi2uDRG/SAMpentaspam). Which means we may see a /nin nerf regardless of what we say here. SE did say they put DNC and SCH in to give people more SJ options. If those don't end up freeing us from the /nin situation, I can see SE taking other steps.

How do you know are you from the future?!

As for DRK's and SAM's subbing NIN all the time: What?

I went from 1-75 without subbing NIN. When I have merrited on DRK i've used /SAM. I used /NIN for scorpian KSNM, but other than that it never gets used.

[ronin sparthos]

SE will never nerf /nin, its become just too crucial in how things work in this day and age. Defense is broken, unless you turn defense into a raw dmg-% in a perfect world where EP hit you like EP and IT hit like IT then a /nin nerf will throw everything into the shitter and not only will we see more of a 'TP burn mentality' - this time instead of keeping damage down, it'll be about rushing the mob asap since you would be in sore need for MP eventually. /nin sadly cannot be nerfed in 07-08 Final Fantasy, not without a massive overhaul of how people take damage completely or a subjob that tops /nin for defense.
(/dnc is situationally better, but it cant be compete to /nin as-is)

Defense somehow being complete damage-% based on VIT and base defense? Workable.

More defensive JAs/spells/traits along the lines of Seigan? Okay.

HNMs that ignore utsusemi unless your a NIN main with high ninjutsu skills? Maybe.

More mobs with AoEs that ignore utsusemi, HNM, NM etc? Best Bet.

The only way SE will detox the FF community from utsusemi is creating *New* HNMs that ignore utsusemi unless you have high skill (ninja main basically) and force people to use something new (/war? maybe. or /thf, /drk or whatever else.) and changing formulas potently.

Defense mattering would be the best bet, it'd help melees make better decisions subjob wise - maybe even /dnc getting a native dual wield trait or two would help (no its not broken.)