Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Max™]

Why would /Dnc need a dual wield trait? (says the diehard gaxe warrior, grinning to himself)

I think it's fine. Better than fine with Fort axe whirling around.

[ronin sparthos]

Just saying people generally say that its a combination of utsu *and* dual wield that makes /nin so attractive. /dnc looks like the best subjob to steal some of /nins thunder without nerfing something.

[Max™]

War dual wields (or not) out of preference now.

Thf doesn't seem to mind excuses to mix it up with different subs, Blu uses Utsu for soloing and whatnot, Whinja's dualwield cause it's cute (I'm sorry, I mean it's tough ), I don't really think dual wield is THE selling point, given the many Drk, Sam, and Gaxe War /Nin's around.

I have /Nin, and don't own any level appropriate 1h weapons sides my Joyeuseless.

It would be neat if Dnc got DWI and maybe II, but I don't think it would really make it more desired for what /Nin is good at.

Whereas Defender giving a scaling -Physical Dmg% value would make /War viable for a lot of /Nin onry situations (aside from the nuking mobs) and REALLY hurt /Nin onry for Exp.

[ronin sparthos]

It would be neat if Dnc got DWI and maybe II, but I don't think it would really make it more desired for what /Nin is good at.

I beg to differ. If /dnc came with dual wield, it'd be a much more '/nin heir' worthy spell fulltime. You wouldnt have shadows but you'd get Evasion Bonus, Accuracy Bonus, Heals, Erase and a Curaga on top of being able to still keep 2weapons in your hands.

(for jobs that still dual-wield)

It'd be a much better support job for PTs where you arent going to be facetanking much, you'd also get a weak voke to bounce hate around as well.

[Max™]

Thf I could see benefiting from that some, but Tp is precious for them post assassin as you want (ideally) to have 100 Tp every 30 seconds.

War, well, you'll generally Tp faster with a Gaxe than dual wielding, so it'd come down to your merits.

Really though, the mitigation from /Nin and the healing ability from /Dnc cover two seperate spectrums.

/Nin is almost wasted against EP-EM, where /Dnc just completely blows it away, but once you start getting hit for 100+/eat crits for 200-300 Dmg, /Dnc strains harder and harder to keep up.

I can deal with about 1200 Dmg/Minute /Dnc without any outside MP. 216 Hp/Waltz II + 10-30 per hit.

That won't keep up with a Mamool Ja Ninja.

[The Q]

I was thinking maybe it's time to make "The Defense Issue" its own topic.

Agree/disagree?

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Just make /NIN's Utsu give shadow images instead of copy images.

[neochaos]

They don't really need to null out the use of utsu /nin for PLD or anything. The def/vit fix WOULD be nice should a PLD, or any other job for that matter, get hit. It would mean EVERYONE would take a little less damage (hopefully) than they do now. If they did for some reason nerf utsu, that would suck ass, since nowadays most strategies involve PLD/NIN, we'd have to change everything up big time

[Lucavi]

we'd have to change everything up big time

At least its something new, or are you seriously happy that pld/nin and nin/drk are just about the only viable tanking jobs when it comes to fighting anything that isn't a xp mob or lolgenbu?

[Spider-Dan]

we'd have to change everything up big time

At least its something new, or are you seriously happy that pld/nin and nin/drk are just about the only viable tanking jobs when it comes to fighting anything that isn't a xp mob or lolgenbu?

Change for the sake of change is itself is, at best, reckless and at worst, a total catastrophe.

To answer your question, yes, I am content with the fact that NIN and PLD are just about the only viable serious tanking jobs. You may have noticed that PLD doesn't exactly have a lot else going for them, and the sentiment of "NIN mains should not be nerfed" has been practically unanimous in this thread.

But even if the goal was to make additional tanks, there are a hell of a lot of better ways to do it than to reroll the entire f'ing game and just hope that it turns out better. And a wholesale utsusemi nerf, at this point in the game's life, would be just that; a complete and utter reroll of the game.

[Oulanbator]

Do you know you could fix the defense / vit issue without changing any formula ?

It is possible to change the stats on the gear.
The main advantage of this option is you can adjust depending on the jobs able to equip items.
Taking each case in consideration, separatly, may be a good way to find some balance, instead of suggesting to change the whole game mechanics.

If you need to add +100 or +1000 def to Pld armor body to make them better at blood-tanking, then do it, it won't affect the other jobs, won't affect the damage you deal to mobs, it will only affect paladin.
And if others jobs also need a defensive boost, it is possible to do it without making them as resistant as plds, just add some defense to their gear without adding as much. Just add what is needed according to the case, and you should should get something balanced.


Well, of course, with that kind of change, you would need to update Utsusemi too, but I think utsusemi needs to change, to be less universal and more ninja restricted.

[drwaffles]

They don't really need to null out the use of utsu /nin for PLD or anything. The def/vit fix WOULD be nice should a PLD, or any other job for that matter, get hit. It would mean EVERYONE would take a little less damage (hopefully) than they do now. If they did for some reason nerf utsu, that would suck ass, since nowadays most strategies involve PLD/NIN, we'd have to change everything up big time

This has already been said before I think, but what you're suggesting here is to basically just give PLD/NIN even more survivability - when shadows are up, they don't take any damage. If they go down for whatever reason, no problem, they won't take as much damage as they did before and can easily get shadows back up before the mob can pose a serious threat to their HP bar. An increase in the damage mitigation capabiities of the DEF/VIT stats would have to coincide with an Utsusemi nerf, or else you're basically just making the game easier than it already is.

[Mytiwar]

Do you know you could fix the defense / vit issue without changing any formula ?

It is possible to change the stats on the gear.
The main advantage of this option is you can adjust depending on the jobs able to equip items.
Taking each case in consideration, separatly, may be a good way to find some balance, instead of suggesting to change the whole game mechanics.

If you need to add +100 or +1000 def to Pld armor body to make them better at blood-tanking, then do it, it won't affect the other jobs, won't affect the damage you deal to mobs, it will only affect paladin.
And if others jobs also need a defensive boost, it is possible to do it without making them as resistant as plds, just add some defense to their gear without adding as much. Just add what is needed according to the case, and you should should get something balanced.


Well, of course, with that kind of change, you would need to update Utsusemi too, but I think utsusemi needs to change, to be less universal and more ninja restricted.

This has a big bad side effect though; what about the armour that more than just pld can use? Plds won't ever want to use it anymore because of a huge difference in def. And there is just so many pieces that are pld only anyway...

I don't think that's the way to go, personnaly.

[Max™]

Pld isn't the problem.

The problem is that I, the job with the native hate generating JA, Provoke, can NOT take a hit in a decent manner without basically imitating a Paladin, and even THEN, a Paladin still takes WAY too much damage.

Pld doesn't need a Def buff though, I do.

If I want to tank, I either find wussy mobs, get em debuffed to the point where they're just a walking HP bar, or I use utsu.

[Oulanbator]

This has a big bad side effect though; what about the armour that more than just pld can use? Plds won't ever want to use it anymore because of a huge difference in def. And there is just so many pieces that are pld only anyway...

It would mean plds would take more damage while wearing light dd gear ( like hauby) or mage gear ( like vermi).
I don't see the problem.
I don't expect someone wearing cloth or mail to take as much damage as someone wearing an heavy plate armor.

And it wouldn't be bad to boost every armor, and to scale these according to the armor class.
Not to make all armors are strong as heavy tank armors, but enough to make def worth being considered as a stat when picking an armor over another.

[Spider-Dan]

I have another question.

What, exactly, would be the horrifying and disastrous fallout if there was a DEF buff and PLD/NIN became a mega-tank?

It's not like PLD serves any other purpose in this game, and PLD/NIN wouldn't replace NIN/WAR in meripo no matter how little damage they took. So what is this terrible cataclysm that we must avoid?

[neochaos]

I agree, SE should implement better things in this game to make in easier, and instead of complementing that with a respective nerf, I say add stronger shit in the game. Content created in 2004 should be easy as balls by now, it has just escaped me why this games "efficiency" as far as merits, better gear, etc is concerned has scaled higher over the years, but the difficulty hasn't. Salvage is prob the one thing I would like in this game had i the ability to do it (would need a JP static with my stupid ass times), because it requires good strategy and has good payoff. Einherjar is just stupid. BLMs/BRD's onry, zergfest yay.

My general suggestion is this: make shit thats "hard to get" now like...ridills..or something along those lines fairly easier to get, while adding in new mobs or whatnot that are vastly more difficult than lolfafnir but drop stuff thats considerably better than a ridill.

Of course, if as people have claimed, the recurring FFXI playerbase is strong (there's an ample supply of noobs willing to stick out FFXI endgame) then i guess keep FFXI in 2004, the old players will die off, the new players will have a good 2-3 years to waste on HNMs, etc. ^^b

[neochaos]

I have another question.

What, exactly, would be the horrifying and disastrous fallout if there was a DEF buff and PLD/NIN became a mega-tank?

It's not like PLD serves any other purpose in this game, and PLD/NIN wouldn't replace NIN/WAR in meripo no matter how little damage they took. So what is this terrible cataclysm that we must avoid?

I just thought of it, should they make a def buff or w/e to turn a PLD into a mega-tank, wouldn't it be so SE'ish to do the same for mobs? Should SE give w/e buff to us to mobs, then I deny this buff, lol. Don't need to make Genbu into a 30min fight D:

[Kenji]

I have another question.

What, exactly, would be the horrifying and disastrous fallout if there was a DEF buff and PLD/NIN became a mega-tank?

It's not like PLD serves any other purpose in this game, and PLD/NIN wouldn't replace NIN/WAR in meripo no matter how little damage they took. So what is this terrible cataclysm that we must avoid?

If PLD's became even more mega, then new monsters will be introduced that hit even harder, so relatively speaking, PLDs will be back to the same level they were before. Except now everyone else is guarenteed to get one shotted, regardless of HP. Might as well go the Taru SMN with full Aquarian and 2 astral rings route, since HP doesn't matter.

I agree, SE should implement better things in this game to make in easier, and instead of complementing that with a respective nerf, I say add stronger shit in the game. Content created in 2004 should be easy as balls by now, it has just escaped me why this games "efficiency" as far as merits, better gear, etc is concerned has scaled higher over the years, but the difficulty hasn't. Salvage is prob the one thing I would like in this game had i the ability to do it (would need a JP static with my stupid ass times), because it requires good strategy and has good payoff. Einherjar is just stupid. BLMs/BRD's onry, zergfest yay.

My general suggestion is this: make shit thats "hard to get" now like...ridills..or something along those lines fairly easier to get, while adding in new mobs or whatnot that are vastly more difficult than lolfafnir but drop stuff thats considerably better than a ridill.

Of course, if as people have claimed, the recurring FFXI playerbase is strong (there's an ample supply of noobs willing to stick out FFXI endgame) then i guess keep FFXI in 2004, the old players will die off, the new players will have a good 2-3 years to waste on HNMs, etc. ^^b

You answered your own question. You're coming at this from someone who has been here a long time and has done everything. Having started over myself, I look ahead at the shear number of things that will open up to me as I level. If things were obliterated by new content, then that's content I'll never see on this character, and I'd have less options. I don't want to reach max level and have my choices be: Alterac Valley for 20 years, or SSC. Take your pick!

Honestly, it sounds like people play entirely too much, get everything done, and whine when there isn't more, like a kid finding out that there's no more christmas presents because he opened them all in 5 minutes.

[Spider-Dan]

If PLD's became even more mega, then new monsters will be introduced that hit even harder,[...]

Or there will be more mobs introduced that have attack that ignore/wipe shadows, or there will be smarter mobs, etc.

There is more than one way to balance difficulty. "Hits harder" is not the only option.