Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Kenji]

If PLD's became even more mega, then new monsters will be introduced that hit even harder,[...]

Or there will be more mobs introduced that have attack that ignore/wipe shadows, or there will be smarter mobs, etc.

There is more than one way to balance difficulty. "Hits harder" is not the only option.

True, but in my experience with MMOs, it's a safe bet that whatever else Devs add, "hits harder" is usually included. Things have to be threatening to pose a challenge. If your tank isn't threatened at all, it's usually an easy fight.

[Therin]

My issue is that before the recent barrage of PLD updates, you had to be somewhat skilled, well-geared, and intelligent to solo or duo tank a hard HNM 100-0%. Now, any wise guy with a RDM, BRD/BLM, and a WHM can have no problem doing almost just as well as anyone else (given: gear does make it easier, but I've seen so many shitty PLDs breeze through Tiamats and Khimairas because their shield blocks during Utsu casting which they were too dumb to count correctly or they Sentinel a Mighty Strikes that would have otherwise killed them).

PLD is fine where it is, but if they do anything else to it it'll just be way too good. I'm fine with updates, but please nothing that makes PLD even more broken in end-game. It's already too easy to snooze through any HNM with a full MP bar and almost perfect hate.

[Lucavi]

There is more than one way to balance difficulty. "Hits harder" is not the only option.

Dan, you're smart, but SE is not. How many times has this happened? Not many. Look at the new HNMs they brought out with ToAU -- they were essentially no different from older HNMs outside of the fact that they dropped nothing worthwhile outside of cerb, in the grand scheme of things. Their difficulty was no harder -- they didn't require some new and advanced strategy to fight -- it was the same as always:

Pour on the apoc drks and big damage, then stun the killer moves when we get the mob at low HP. No multiple stages, no different move sets depending on where you attack, what you damage (not like you can damage individual parts of them anyway, HYDRA! -_-), and no real initiate to do them again once you finish the first time, unless you want agol or cerb mantles.

We have to think of ideas that SE actually has the brain capacity, or the drive, to create. Just saying "SE would make the mobs more challenging without making them hit harder" doesn't hold water, because it DOESN'T HAPPEN. You have "hits harder", "puts up phys/magic immunity", "attacks faster", "spams a particular move", or "goes wtfpwn with hate reset and one-shots the mages".

All of those have been out since CoP, and there has been no additions outside of that (speaking about HNM, still). SE hasn't shown the capacity to extend themselves beyond those for 5 years now -- I don't think its going to magically start happening now.

[Kayos]

Eh, back before the Utsu addiction, I saw plenty of subjob variation. DRKs and SAMs subbing THF post 60 for SATA. Melee subbing SAM for Store TP and meditate. And yes, WAR and NIN as well.

And we were happy with 5k an hour exp parties then too.

[Kenji]

Eh, back before the Utsu addiction, I saw plenty of subjob variation. DRKs and SAMs subbing THF post 60 for SATA. Melee subbing SAM for Store TP and meditate. And yes, WAR and NIN as well.

And we were happy with 5k an hour exp parties then too.

I was getting at least 10k an hour, but okay. Still, that proves nothing. A lot has changed since then, but the two major contributions are the extra gear/merits and colibri.

[Kayos]

I was getting at least 10k an hour, but okay. Still, that proves nothing. A lot has changed since then, but the two major contributions are the extra gear/merits and colibri.

Gear/merits I can agree with. However after your so called Utsu addiction (but before ToAU), we were in sky killing Decos for 12k an hour. Suprisingly we were all /nin too. Nerfing Utsu would be beyond retarded. Why create a false sense of difficulty by making mobs take longer/be more annoying to tank?

[ronin sparthos]

i <3 how everyone pulls these huge numbers outta their asses when speaking about ToAU (MAN DID YOU SEE ME RAKE IN 35k+/hr????) but CoP/RoZ is *always* (lol 4k/hr).

Yes, ToAU made the ease of getting high exp/hr much more accessable but you could still do 10k+/hr exp back in the old zones (KRT/Sky/Ulguerand/Bibiki etc) and 35k/hr consistently still isnt happening for a majority of the playerbase.

10k-15k/hr? Seems more like the 'standard' these days.

[Kenji]

Gear/merits I can agree with. However after your so called Utsu addiction (but before ToAU), we were in sky killing Decos for 12k an hour. Suprisingly we were all /nin too. Nerfing Utsu would be beyond retarded. Why create a false sense of difficulty by making mobs take longer/be more annoying to tank?

Why not change things so you can sub something that increases your damage instead of gimping it, thereby killing mobs faster instead of slower? Why spend all that extra money just to xp? Well, you've probably got money to burn, but a lot of people don't; especially the newer ones. So yeah, let's have the game punish them; after all, we're the end-gamers here. We're more important.

[Kayos]

Why not change things so you can sub something that increases your damage instead of gimping it, thereby killing mobs faster instead of slower? Why spend all that extra money just to xp? Well, you've probably got money to burn, but a lot of people don't; especially the newer ones. So yeah, let's have the game punish them; after all, we're the end-gamers here. We're more important.

1) I sincerely doubt that my dual-weilding ridilberk war(and the ton of others out there) would gain any damage increase by (and ill even give you the benefit of the doubt here) /sam and using Byakko's Axe (like you said not everyone is rich and can afford a relic). However, my damage mitigation even with Seigan would take a hit. Therefore your point that changing subs away from /nin would ultimately increase damage fails because it won't for all situations. And how can I be killing things faster if I am making healers use more mp to heal me?

2) We are punishing people by not nerfing Utsu? Now you are just being retarded. Are you forgetting that 95% of the playerbase tanks nin/something or something/nin? Those 5% sure have it rough.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Man...NIN is everything THF was supposed to be...

[Kenji]

1) I sincerely doubt that my dual-weilding ridilberk war(and the ton of others out there) would gain any damage increase by (and ill even give you the benefit of the doubt here) /sam and using Byakko's Axe (like you said not everyone is rich and can afford a relic). However, my damage mitigation even with Seigan would take a hit. Therefore your point that changing subs away from /nin would ultimately increase damage fails because it won't for all situations. And how can I be killing things faster if I am making healers use more mp to heal me?

Last I checked, not everyone has a ridill. And I thought it was rather simple that more damage = killing faster. The MP issue is a seperate one. If we're going to assume top of the line DPS with gil to burn, then we'd also have to assume top of the line healers with gil to burn.

[/quote]2) We are punishing people by not nerfing Utsu? Now you are just being retarded. Are you forgetting that 95% of the playerbase tanks nin/something or something/nin? Those 5% sure have it rough.[/quote]

Your perspective is skewed from where you are standing. A lot more than 5% of the playerbase is not at 75 and all tricked out with tons of gil. There are a lot of people leveling up for the first time, or leveling a 2nd or 3rd job, who hasn't done a lot of end-game activities. I'm sure they'd like to level without being told "/NIN onry prz" when they have no desire to level nin and burn through gil on shihei. When a WAR/SAM or a WAR/THF can get an equal invite chance compared to WAR/NIN, then we'll know that SJ variation is back.

Hell, maybe they just oughta introduce the Gil Toss ability for end-gamers today. Select an amount of money, and deal damage based on that. Since so many are willing to piss their gil. I suppose they can always buy more...

[The Q]

You know I think that by arguing about Utsusemi we're really losing sight of the reall issues that cause the reliance on utsusemi.

It'd probably be best to discuss the Def/VIT and mob damage issues without bringing utsu into it right now. Right now the mere mention of utsusemi just makes the whole discussion about that, and it's just the effect of a cause we're losing sight of.

[Spider-Dan]

When a WAR/SAM or a WAR/THF can get an equal invite chance compared to WAR/NIN, then we'll know that SJ variation is back.

Funny that you pick WAR (the only job that can't sub WAR) as support for the argument that /NIN is out of control. I guess when NIN/DRG or NIN/DNC can get equal invites to NIN/WAR, then we'll know that SJ variation is back? Or something.

P.S. The demise of /THF has practically nothing to do with any sort of /NIN dominance; it is almost exclusively due to the death of SCs. Without SATAWS (which simply doesn't happen in TP burn parties), there is essentially no point to subbing THF.

[Max™]

When a WAR/SAM or a WAR/THF can get an equal invite chance compared to WAR/NIN, then we'll know that SJ variation is back.

Funny that you pick WAR (the only job that can't sub WAR) as support for the argument that /NIN is out of control. I guess when NIN/DRG or NIN/DNC can get equal invites to NIN/WAR, then we'll know that SJ variation is back? Or something.

P.S. The demise of /THF has practically nothing to do with any sort of /NIN dominance; it is almost exclusively due to the death of SCs. Without SATAWS (which simply doesn't happen in TP burn parties), there is essentially no point to subbing THF.

Outside of having fun blowing up mobs in Sky with SA Steel Cyclones, you mean...

I get random invites without seeking on War/Sam when I'm in Lag-gate. Only been asked once to go /Nin, said no, we went and merited.

I still need to use seigan though.

Let me know when I can go War/Drg without draining the healers MP dry, and I'll whoop and cheer, or War/Sam and ride Hasso full time, yay.

[The Q]

Just wondering, why dragoon sub as an example?

[Max™]

Just wondering, why dragoon sub as an example?

You ever hit something with a taru holding onto a great axe before?

It's awesome, very fun.

1 more Str than /Sam, +10 Acc, 5% haste earring, Jump > High Jump with barone gear gives like 19 Tp per jump, 33 or 34 if you double attack the jump, which is awesome.... oh, and Jumps do damage like mini-weaponskills.

[The Q]

[quote=Max™]

Just wondering, why dragoon sub as an example?

You ever hit something with a taru holding onto a great axe before?

It's awesome, very fun.

1 more Str than /Sam, +10 Acc, 5% haste earring, Jump > High Jump with barone gear gives like 19 Tp per jump, 33 or 34 if you double attack the jump, which is awesome.... oh, and Jumps do damage like mini-weaponskills.[/quote:skxwxe05]

Got it. Seeing as I never see the combo I wouldn't have had much of an idea of the advantages.

[neochaos]

You can get a pt invite war/sam? grats,

True story, I lfped as a joke one time RDM/PUP, guess who got an epic invite from a fool to a caedarva mire pt where I'm almost positive I'd be the only form of cures and no one would carry echo drops?

^


People are stupid, they will invite anything, lol.

[Redshift]

There is no advantage to subbing DRG over SAM in a merit party. You do more damage as /SAM than /DRG, and you mitigate more damage as /SAM than /DRG.

Maxaru is delusional. Please don't feed him, you don't want to know how stupid and narrow minded he becomes.

[Lordender]

/drg used to be an effective toy to play with in merits before /sam got seigan and hasso, I just don't see it comparing it to /sam in merits anymore.