Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Nyuneko]

5) Go back to point 1.

Fixed.

I will just say these:

1) Macro spam =/= Challenge. Especially when melee and tank still do the same thing regardless of the changes. Play a mage, spamming heal is never fun or challenging.

2) Even if a /NIN nerf is in, there will still be no new "Challenge" as people will still stick to the most efficient method of winning once it's found.

If you want to use a different method to win, you are always free to do so, but when you are in a rather large LS(12+), with everyone thinking differently but with the same goal(1337 gears), be prepared to be doing the most efficient strat over and over. It's your own fault that the challenge is losing, by not going out there and trying on your own(as in "ingame) not "Crying in BG").

Many people like Max, sub non-NIN on their DD jobs as well, just because people around you have no idea on how to be flexible doesn't mean that other people out there aren't. Simply put, when most of us "elitists" sub NIN, we sub it not because someone on Zam said that it's the best subjob, but because we actually use our logic to think what would be the best job/SJ combination that would aid our team the most.

And BLM/NIN? What was that all about? Why has whatever a random retard has done have anything to do with the /NIN talks? I am a BLM, and I have never sub NIN, since when does whatever random retard doing whatever retarded thing meant anything to the community? Zammers would probably care though, but you are in the wrong forum.

[Nirokun!]

blm/nin is nice for blm activities

small man blm kills on some sea mobs comes to mind

theres your variety, blms sub: whm, rdm, nin, lolsch. most blms use rdm right now as their primary sub (at least the blms i know), and can switch to other subs if SITUATIONALSITUATIONS arise.

[Nyuneko]

blm/nin is nice for blm activities

small man blm kills on some sea mobs comes to mind

theres your variety, blms sub: whm, rdm, nin, lolsch. most blms use rdm right now as their primary sub (at least the blms i know), and can switch to other subs if SITUATIONALSITUATIONS arise.

My primary sub is WHM, because I like being able to do status removals, and raises.

I probably will never give BLM/NIN a try under most circumstances, unless it's 1 of those manaburn BC where BLM/NIN is clearly superior in all sense. For the activities I do, RDM, WHM and lolSCH(when I get it to 37...) are the only one I will ever need.

[Lucavi]

The only reason why people are so elitist in this game is for efficiency.

Theres one more aspect to it, though. Things are mind-numbingly boring after you've done it the 30th time, but its also the combined factor of knowing that in those 30 times, you may get the drop you want (for your entire linkshell, not just for your own personal character) maybe 1-5 times. Consider something as easy as proto omega -- you have people that have waited 9+ months for homam body or feet in a linkshell that does omega over ultima to a 3-to-1 ratio and has never lost a fight. That's just silly, but its the reality in a game where absolutely nothing is guaranteed outside of your eventual frustration with the monotony of it all.

Oh, and botting. That's always guaranteed.

Who said anything about upgrading /WAR and /SAM? I thought the supposed goal was more subjob variety, not just reducing /NIN usage at any cost. More variety would entail improving and diversifying options, not just trading one kind of dominance for another.

If you bothered to read instead of holding your shift key when typing lol, you'd have realized that I didn't upgrade war in the slightest. As it stands now, war already IS the middle ground between offense and defensive subs --if-- SE would actually buff other subjobs to how they're supposed to perform. War has offense (zerk), defense (defender), and slight utility (DA, AOE mini-zerk). If rng has all acc, drk should have all power, and yes, give sam a boost, just not one that steps on the toes of the other jobs, and TP doesn't do that.

The point is to introduce variety, and the more variety, the better. I doubt many people would just stick with /war if a sub was introduced that contained a higher attack boost than berzerk without stupid drawbacks (seriously SE, just throw out last resort. It fails.).

I find it somewhat interesting that you dismiss improving offensive subjobs as a predestined failure, at the same time you casually mention that oh yeah, there is a setup where your DDs hit hard enough and fast enough for lack of defense to be offset. But there's no point in trying to improve and diversify offensive subjobs?

You would find that interesting, wouldn't you? Of course, however, you miss the ball entirely. There is a setup where your (single, just like in my example provided stated, and completely tricked out, surrounded other powerful players that can also bring the pain, just not enough to hold hate constantly -- consider Rng in the mix as well) DD can grab initial hate on imps and flies, then hold it for about 9 seconds until the mob dies from that slugshot from the rng, or that 1.9k penta from the drk. Yes, there is that setup, but it works in all of maybe 3 camps. If you want to harp on a situational instance of /war being great for a small subset of main jobs when farming experience, then so be it, but acting like an instance of an event that happens 3% of the time is some massive crack in the wall of my reasoning is both petty and foolish, even for you.

The futility of trying to improve the variety and versatility of the jobs is that once you pull hate, you're getting hit, so at best, you can have ONE of those jobs in a single party, or you're burning too much mp. The only way to get DDs (especially 2-handers) off the /nin train was to buff /sam to the point where they had a choice between no offense but high defense, or decent offense with decent defense. Your suggestion of rng, and by default, mine of /drk, fails to introduce ways to mitigate the damage that will occur with the large enhancement of accuracy or raw attack. That is the flaw in both your and my argument, and you still fail to see that.

People sub notNIN now. Those same people would, therefore, have interest in a SJ that offers a unique offensive benefit. Any DD that uses /WAR today (or pre-70 /SAM) would obviously be interested in an improved /RNG.

And they'd be interested in my improved /drk or improved /sam all the same. Moving on.

And that's true because most DDs (or half, or even some appreciable number) sub NIN to HNM fights, right? OH, WAIT.

Your meme fails, so save it for someone else. They don't use /nin because generally, the tanks have hate locked pretty tightly onto the HNMs, if they're in a shell worth their salt. With a steady stream of sam/thf tricking, and the tank never being touched by physical hits, the hate is steady enough where they don't need to worry as much about ripping outright hate, but the threat is always there, especially after hate-resetting moves. More to the point, however, is the fact that again, your subjob is on the same level as my suggested change to drk. Wowie-wow, you've still introduced nothing special. Not many HNMs have accuracy so high that its impossible to hit -- its usually their retarded defense that gets in the way of people putting up decent numbers. In that effect, my sub would perform better than yours -- up until the player pulled hate, in which case they have nothing to save them -- the problem with every non-thf /DD sub, and a prime reason why many spike-damage jobs sub /thf for HNM fights.

Do you ever consider exactly why it is that /NIN is so useful for DDs in today's exp party and yet so useless against HNM? Could it be because people simply don't care who the mob is attacking in an exp party, as long as it stays up front? Your vendetta seems to be misplaced; rather than aiming to strip the defensive prowess of /NIN, perhaps you should be focusing on having actual tanks hold the mobs' attention.

Do you ever stop and consider that not everyone in the world is as stupid as you think they are? You're spouting retorts that a second grader can easily cobble together. We already know that SE's system of allowing tanks to hold hate is fucked up, and we already know that SE's system of mob defense is fucked in the head. I am responding case-in-point to your hilariously naive idea that somehow buffing ranger as a subjob would redesign the way everyone thinks about xp, quests, and HNM. I'm telling you it would not, because the second that person pulled hate, they're DEAD or being screamed at for being a mp sponge, just like anyone else that doesn't sub nin, outside of a lucky sam that had seigan up when his TA didn't go off on that TA+WS. You fix that glaring aspect of FFXI, and then you work on improving subjob variety. Why is this so fucking hard for you to grasp?

Hell, when some groups are asking mages to sub /nin just for added safety, you know something is wrong. It's not just a problem with DD -- they're just the major abusers.

[neochaos]

The only reason why people are so elitist in this game is for efficiency. A lot of things in this game are mind-numbingly boring (end-game exp), so of course, instead of having a mix-and-match party consisting of gimps, bad jobs, and worse subjobs, of people just "having fun", a good number of people rather just have the most efficient setup possible and shit out merits as fast as possible.

Elitism sucks bad considering how much it limits the other 90% of content in this game, but thats just how it is.

You do 90% of your content with pickup groups?

Prob shouldn't have said content so much as I should have said "everything" lol. I mean't like, you cant get the chain 200+ on birds with pups, bsts, blms, etc. Or for HNMs, u'll never see shit like drgs in there.

But to answer ur question, I do 0% content with pickup groups. pickups fail

[Shuemue]

You're either a shitty blm or you need to try new things if you don't have /nin sub available.

[neochaos]

I never really used BLM/NIN, couldn't really see a good point to it, outside of lower level exping and shit. /nin for blm is prob better if ur soloing something that can't be gravitied/runs too fast, but outside of dual wands pre 51, idk.

[Shuemue]

Jailer of Fortitude is a perfect example of why it's so useful, you blink away the nukes he reflects back at you.

[Rhinox]

certain Salvage boss, Certain Limbus areas and Small man instances where puting up Ni is more feasible and effective then casting SS/blink come to mind. Ninja is actually a real nice Subjob to have for almost every job.

[Kayos]

Jailer of Fortitude is a perfect example of why it's so useful, you blink away the nukes he reflects back at you.

Not to mention when he turns around to vorpal blade your ass you can at least blink 3 hits before you die.

[Kenji]

1) Macro spam =/= Challenge. Especially when melee and tank still do the same thing regardless of the changes. Play a mage, spamming heal is never fun or challenging.

Back in the day, we had WHM/SMN's in the fafhogg tank party. In addition to healing/hasting the PLD/WARs and keeping up barspells, they'd also aerial armor the tanks. We'd also rotate WHMs when 1 or 2 needed to rest. This was back before the PLD/NIN fad. A good WHM isn't spamming a single macro; they are using a variety of spells to suit the immediate situation. Knowing which spell of which strength to use takes skill. Spamming the Haste button over and over is an easy snoozefest.

2) Even if a /NIN nerf is in, there will still be no new "Challenge" as people will still stick to the most efficient method of winning once it's found.

Most efficient != easy kill. You can make something challenging, without making it easy each time. Granted, I'm not entirely sure SE can do this, however.

And BLM/NIN? What was that all about? Why has whatever a random retard has done have anything to do with the /NIN talks? I am a BLM, and I have never sub NIN, since when does whatever random retard doing whatever retarded thing meant anything to the community? Zammers would probably care though, but you are in the wrong forum.

You need to get out more. BLM/NIN is situational, but it is used by plenty of people. However, my main point of bringing this up, was to showcase that /NIN is the only job that's been subbed to every other job(someone else already brought up BRD/NIN). That's how broken it is.

Heya Lucavi, speaking of DRK, how about this? Menacing Visage - Greatly lowers the DRK's enmity. Probably as a JA, though not sure what kind of CD, duration, or -enmity values it should have. DRK's are supposed to be "scary" right? And also turn it into a a reason to sub DRK: Reduced Enmity. There's your defensive measure. Timely/skilled use it means you don't have to worry about getting hit, because you're capable of doing good damage without pulling aggro. Alternatively, it could be use as a 1-shot to "scare" the mob into attacking someone else, if it attacks the DRK. You do a strong WS or SE, mob turns to you, you pop Menacing Visage, and it turns to the next person on it's list, which should hopefully be the tank. Sort of a reverse-provoke.

[Shuemue]

Jailer of Fortitude is a perfect example of why it's so useful, you blink away the nukes he reflects back at you.

Not to mention when he turns around to vorpal blade your ass you can at least blink 3 hits before you die.

Let's not get into my personal death rates though >_>

[shirak]

Or for HNMs, u'll never see shit like drgs in there.

You should probably go back to KI forums.

[fndragon]

Heya Lucavi, speaking of DRK, how about this? Menacing Visage - Greatly lowers the DRK's enmity. Probably as a JA, though not sure what kind of CD, duration, or -enmity values it should have. DRK's are supposed to be "scary" right? And also turn it into a a reason to sub DRK: Reduced Enmity. There's your defensive measure. Timely/skilled use it means you don't have to worry about getting hit, because you're capable of doing good damage without pulling aggro. Alternatively, it could be use as a 1-shot to "scare" the mob into attacking someone else, if it attacks the DRK. You do a strong WS or SE, mob turns to you, you pop Menacing Visage, and it turns to the next person on it's list, which should hopefully be the tank. Sort of a reverse-provoke.

You mean like High Jump works? (Removes 33% of enmity on you, instant JA, 3 minute cooldown). Except High Jump also does damage. So it'd be worse than High Jump.

[Spider-Dan]

If you bothered to read instead of holding your shift key when typing lol, you'd have realized that I didn't upgrade war in the slightest. As it stands now, war already IS the middle ground between offense and defensive subs --if-- SE would actually buff other subjobs to how they're supposed to perform.

As it stands now, WAR is the most offensive subjob in the game, so a hypothetical buff would therefore be stronger than anything we have now. So, then:

There is a setup where your (single, just like in my example provided stated, and completely tricked out, surrounded other powerful players that can also bring the pain, just not enough to hold hate constantly -- consider Rng in the mix as well) DD can grab initial hate on imps and flies, then hold it for about 9 seconds until the mob dies from that slugshot from the rng, or that 1.9k penta from the drk. Yes, there is that setup, but it works in all of maybe 3 camps.

You claim that the limited number of camps like KRT, mire, etc. "don't count" because the mobs are too easy to kill, but if there's a new SJ that makes DDs even more powerful, how can you say that colibri or trolls won't also fall into that bucket?

The futility of trying to improve the variety and versatility of the jobs is that once you pull hate, you're getting hit, so at best, you can have ONE of those jobs in a single party, or you're burning too much mp.

...which is why parties only had one MNK/WAR in KRT, right?

[quote:24bza1m9]People sub notNIN now. Those same people would, therefore, have interest in a SJ that offers a unique offensive benefit. Any DD that uses /WAR today (or pre-70 /SAM) would obviously be interested in an improved /RNG.

And they'd be interested in my improved /drk or improved /sam all the same. Moving on.[/quote:24bza1m9]
They're already interested in /SAM today! Hell, the entire point of the statement was that there are already people that are not subbing NIN, even though it means that they'll take damage. Would it be nice if they had more options, like /RNG or /DRK? Sure. But your primary objection is "it doesn't matter what offensive bonuses the other subjobs have because no one will fight without shadows," and that's obviously false; people are using non-NIN SJs already, and improving /RNG or /DRK would only increase that number.

Furthermore, even the idea of improving the offense of /SAM is contradictory to your argument; you claim repeatedly that extra offense is meaningless without damage mitigation, and yet your solution to improve SAM is not to reduce 3E recast or improve its reliability, but to add Auto-Regain (i.e. an offensive boost) and more Store TP (another offensive boost)? Some consistency, please.

They don't use /nin because generally, the tanks have hate locked pretty tightly onto the HNMs, if they're in a shell worth their salt. With a steady stream of sam/thf tricking, and the tank never being touched by physical hits, the hate is steady enough where they don't need to worry as much about ripping outright hate, but the threat is always there, especially after hate-resetting moves.

So wait... you're saying that the ability to mitigate damage is not the overwhelmingly all-important megafactor that outweighs everything else? What happened to our glossy-eyed addiction to shadows?

It's not the possibility of taking hate that drives people to /NIN. It's the other way around; tankless meleeburn parties use shihei to exchange offensive capability for a lack of offensive restraint.

Not many HNMs have accuracy so high that its impossible to hit -- its usually their retarded defense that gets in the way of people putting up decent numbers.

I find it rather puzzling that I have to explain this, but unless you are fighting a mob in full ATK/haste gear while eating meat, any accuracy that you gain from SJ is an extra slot/buff you can now get ATK/haste from.

As for arguments as to whether or not your improvement is "better" than mine: the point is that players would be able to choose. A player with a large amount of accuracy gear might want to sub DRK (or w/e), while a player with a large amount of attack/haste gear might prefer to sub RNG. The goal is more options.

I am responding case-in-point to your hilariously naive idea that somehow buffing ranger as a subjob would redesign the way everyone thinks about xp, quests, and HNM. I'm telling you it would not, because the second that person pulled hate, they're DEAD or being screamed at for being a mp sponge, just like anyone else that doesn't sub nin, outside of a lucky sam that had seigan up when his TA didn't go off on that TA+WS.

And for the third time: people already sub notNIN in plenty of situations as it is, so how do you come to the conclusion that having utsusemi is some sort of universal mandate?

See, the problem is that we're arguing for fundamentally different goals. You are aiming for the single-minded destruction of /NIN to the exclusion of all other concerns (see: your absurd proposal of give-away-DW-to-other-jobs-while-simultaneously-nerfing-utsusemi, which would instantly and completely obsolete the subjob), while I'm arguing to improve the other subjobs that currently serve virtually no function.

Hell, when some groups are asking mages to sub /nin just for added safety, you know something is wrong. It's not just a problem with DD -- they're just the major abusers.

And yet somehow, I doubt you'd think it's a balance problem if melee were asked to sub WHM (you know, the most popular subjob in the game) to, say, Fafhogg.

[drwaffles]

I used BLM/NIN for a while for soloing Palace Aerns to avoid linking and also for Chariot boss attempts back in the early days of Salvage. BLM/NIN can also be used to solo Ix'DRK, and I've seen it used for trio-ing Seiryu.

Edit: it totally owns for low-man Genbu as well.

[Kenji]

Heya Lucavi, speaking of DRK, how about this? Menacing Visage - Greatly lowers the DRK's enmity. Probably as a JA, though not sure what kind of CD, duration, or -enmity values it should have. DRK's are supposed to be "scary" right? And also turn it into a a reason to sub DRK: Reduced Enmity. There's your defensive measure. Timely/skilled use it means you don't have to worry about getting hit, because you're capable of doing good damage without pulling aggro. Alternatively, it could be use as a 1-shot to "scare" the mob into attacking someone else, if it attacks the DRK. You do a strong WS or SE, mob turns to you, you pop Menacing Visage, and it turns to the next person on it's list, which should hopefully be the tank. Sort of a reverse-provoke.

You mean like High Jump works? (Removes 33% of enmity on you, instant JA, 3 minute cooldown). Except High Jump also does damage. So it'd be worse than High Jump.

My latter suggestion is similiar(the mob *would* turn, as opposed to High Jump where the mob can still be on you if you have sufficient hate still), but my first suggestion would be more like Berserk. A buff that's up for awhile. Let me pull some numbers out of my ass to illustrate: 5 min cooldown, 3 min duration. Any actions during this time yield 50% of the enmity as normal. Perhaps more like defender, where the duration matches the cooldown. I was wondering about attaching a downside to it, then remembered Seigan and Hasso. Also, High Jump deals damage and builds TP. Menacing Visage would do neither. It's just a straight adjustment to enmity.

Perhaps a change to more of a terrorize effect. Mob turns to DRK, DRK pops Menacing Visage, Mob smacks DRK once and freezes in place. When it unfreezes, it goes after someone else. To avoid abuse, make it subject to diminishing returns(eventually it won't freeze at all, nor reduce enmity). Hmm, maybe a kind of Terror-spikes spell...

[Lordwafik]

lol at bashing blm/nin (for situational use). blm/nin is great at omega too, in the off chance that a stun is missed for Colossal blow, and it turns to the blm, with slow2/elegy the thing is a joke to blink tank untill the tanks get it back. Hell, blm gets it's own stun when all shadows are down

[Lucavi]

As it stands now, WAR is the most offensive subjob in the game, so a hypothetical buff would therefore be stronger than anything we have now. So, then:

All we can do is hope that that changes, although hoping does jack shit in the grand scheme of things.

You claim that the limited number of camps like KRT, mire, etc. "don't count" because the mobs are too easy to kill, but if there's a new SJ that makes DDs even more powerful, how can you say that colibri or trolls won't also fall into that bucket?

You have a problem with this? People have been crying for SE to make stronger merit mobs anyway, so phasing colibri into "weaksauce with good xp" wouldn't really be a problem. Most people that have elite-class gear also already have full or nearly-full merits anyway. Its gotten to the point where many people merit just for the sake of meriting.

...which is why parties only had one MNK/WAR in KRT, right?

Monk/war -- try any other job there, okay? Pulling out a single reference does jack shit in the larger picture, especially if nobody is really doing KRT anymore. It was phased out by colibri just like everything else was, but keep grasping for straws -- its cute.

They're already interested in /SAM today! Hell, the entire point of the statement was that there are already people that are not subbing NIN, even though it means that they'll take damage. Would it be nice if they had more options, like /RNG or /DRK? Sure. But your primary objection is "it doesn't matter what offensive bonuses the other subjobs have because no one will fight without shadows," and that's obviously false; people are using non-NIN SJs already, and improving /RNG or /DRK would only increase that number.

You're a fool, really. /Sam offers a middleground between offense AND DEFENSE, and the difference between its defense and war's defense is that sam's offers a chance to mitigate damage, while defender does not. The key word here is mitigation -- nobody wants reduced damage, or you'd see more people subbing /pld. People want -NO- damage, or the mages throw a hissy fit and it really does slow down chains. Your sub, and by default, my sub, offer no forms of outright damage mitigation -- they are destined to fail in any area where you should not be taking hits, which, due to FFXI's lust with utsusemi, and the combined failure that is our defensive ratios, is 90% of the game.

Furthermore, even the idea of improving the offense of /SAM is contradictory to your argument; you claim repeatedly that extra offense is meaningless without damage mitigation, and yet your solution to improve SAM is not to reduce 3E recast or improve its reliability, but to add Auto-Regain (i.e. an offensive boost) and more Store TP (another offensive boost)? Some consistency, please.

I -am- being consistent by suggesting that if you buff one sub, you buff the others. You're asking for your /rng, and possibly /dnc to receive a boost worthy of allowing people to utilize the subs more (even though /dnc is already a super-hot sub). Its YOU that lacks any form of consistancy, because you're willing to allow other subs to rot, so long as you get more prestige to your precious rng job by way of more main job usage or subjob usage.

Everyone deserves new content, and new toys to play with -- that includes all jobs. You buff one, you buff them all, just through different means to get the same job done.

So wait... you're saying that the ability to mitigate damage is not the overwhelmingly all-important megafactor that outweighs everything else? What happened to our glossy-eyed addiction to shadows?

Let me spell it out for you, since you're so trying to attack my logic. The role of a DD in HNM, in relation to dealing damage and staying alive:

1)Deal damage while placing hate on the tank, to allow for more damage dealt without pullling hate.
2)Deal damage while using a sub with the ability to mitigate damage if hate is directed towards you.
3)Deal just enough damage to hold your own and contribute, without pulling needless hate and burning MP.

Naturally if someone's task is to increase the hate threshold of the main tank, then they allow for others to deal more damage. If you're a sam/thf, and do your job well enough, you can feasibly allow others to not sub /nin. If your sam/thfs are planting wonderful hate on the tanks in a proto-ultima, the blms don't have to sub /nin to stay alive -- they can nuke more liberally, as theres a bigger pool of hate to work under. It's common sense, so stop trying to take the point away from the overall argument.

As for arguments as to whether or not your improvement is "better" than mine: the point is that players would be able to choose. A player with a large amount of accuracy gear might want to sub DRK (or w/e), while a player with a large amount of attack/haste gear might prefer to sub RNG. The goal is more options.

Wonderful, and we both agree, but the issue is still how to deal more damage without pulling hate, because if you pull hate, you get complained at. More acc, more atk, more haste is all good and well, unless you're pulling more hate. That's why non/nin jobs often times have to hold back from their maximum potential, just to stay alive. I've done it many times, and this is without some leet-tastic upgrade to ranger or dark knight sub.

And for the third time: people already sub notNIN in plenty of situations as it is, so how do you come to the conclusion that having utsusemi is some sort of universal mandate?

Look the fuck around you. I don't have to explain this again.

See, the problem is that we're arguing for fundamentally different goals. You are aiming for the single-minded destruction of /NIN to the exclusion of all other concerns (see: your absurd proposal of give-away-DW-to-other-jobs-while-simultaneously-nerfing-utsusemi, which would instantly and completely obsolete the subjob), while I'm arguing to improve the other subjobs that currently serve virtually no function.

No, I'm not. I never had a problem with /nin until it became the de-facto way to do everything in safe-mode. I never had a problem with it until I was asked to fucking drg/nin at an easy-ase event like fucking ODS, which is hilarious considering drg/whm can recover all damage, as well as healing others, and drg/sam can produce more of a physical output without sacrificing too much hp.

The problem is that the FFXI community is so hot-glued to the concept of taking no damage instead of taking some damage while dealing more damage, because taking damage is such a massive penalty in this game, and because restoration of MP is outright pathetic compared to many other games, which means that mages are horribly limited by what they can and can't do in any given situation. You increase mp regeneration, and people stop crying about being MP sponges, and less /nin has to be used. You change the defense variables and less people are crying about MP, and you have less /nin.

Not ONCE have I suggested eliminating, or even nerfing nin. Look the fuck back and check, instead of ramming your finger into my chest, accusing me of this and that. Nay, I have actually brought up numerous suggestions that wouldn't even TOUCH utsu -- the only suggestion I had that would change the equation was to place dual-wield on other jobs, which isn't touching utsusemi in the slightest. You can still sub /nin to have it, but a thf no longer HAS to sub nin just to use two daggers.

Try to accuse me again, Spider-Dan, and I'll refute you again.

And yet somehow, I doubt you'd think it's a balance problem if melee were asked to sub WHM (you know, the most popular subjob in the game) to, say, Fafhogg.

I'd actually hate your assumptions about me if they were ever right, but reassuringly, they're always wrong. I'd like more choices in the game so people would never have to sub /whm there unless they wanted to, but I'm not for nerfing whm just to accomplish that. What I am for, however, is changing the way the game works defensively to allow people more freedom to do what they wish without being screamed at for being a MP sponge, but keep believing what you want if it makes you sleep a little better at night. :ashira:

[Suiram]

I'm fondly reminded of a thread a year and a half ago that started out about dynamis LSs, was derailed into Kaylia and I vs. Seditedi, Kerberoz, and Nynja on the viability of NIN sub for BLM, and later further derailed into everyone vs. Kerberoz for his not even having WHM sub levelled. 8)

My opinion now is the same as it was then. There are a few situations where NIN is the ideal subjob for BLM, a few where WHM or RDM are the strongest, and then there's the vast majority where it's all a matter of personal preference. My only issue, as someone who has long held NIN as my BLM's SJ of preference, is with people who argue that it somehow affords a BLM less survivability in situations where they aren't being relied upon for backup support. I know a person doesn't need to have a job or SJ levelled in order to understand the basic mechanics of it, but more often than not it seems that those people who would argue against it are simply unfamiliar with the extent of the damage mitigation that utsusemi affords.