Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Xno Kappa]

Shit's situational, zOMG! what a concept. :rocl:

On a serious note though, if you don't have /NIN leveled on BLM you fail pretty hard on several levels.

[drwaffles]

everyone vs. Kerberoz for his not even having WHM sub levelled.

Let me guess, "/RDM is all u need cuz it has moar int and dmg is the mst imprtant thing 4 blms"? I think Kerb is the guy that says BLMs should never use Penitent's Rope over Sorcerer's Belt or Wzd. Petasos(+1)/Mahatma Hat over Demon Helm+1/Maat's Cap in any situation, right?

[Tsuko_Asura]

If I had a Sorcerer's Belt, I'd use it. <_<;; Its free, and I'm poor.

[Not Kuno]

I don't use my sorc belt very often, only in solo or blm pt situations. I still have my p.rope for any sort of hnm, stoneskin, and other jobs. 1 more int is nice but come that's 3 enmity. Just pretend youre on a HNM and a blm nuked right before you and thats why your dmg is slightly less.

[solsovly]

you cant get the chain 200+ on birds with pups, bsts, blms, etc. Or for HNMs, u'll never see shit like drgs in there.

You can get Chain 200+ with a BST in party, I havn't partied with a 75 PUP so I can't comment on them.

[Spider-Dan]

You claim that the limited number of camps like KRT, mire, etc. "don't count" because the mobs are too easy to kill, but if there's a new SJ that makes DDs even more powerful, how can you say that colibri or trolls won't also fall into that bucket?

You have a problem with this? People have been crying for SE to make stronger merit mobs anyway, so phasing colibri into "weaksauce with good xp" wouldn't really be a problem.

So then, if adding more effective offensive subjobs could turn more camps into the equivalent of mire or KRT (where you agree shadows are not necessary), how can you continue to claim that there's no point in adding more effective offensive subjobs because people WILL NOT go without shadows? Make up your mind.

Pulling out a single reference does jack shit in the larger picture, especially if nobody is really doing KRT anymore. It was phased out by colibri just like everything else was, but keep grasping for straws -- its cute.

How about your own main job as /mage on colibri? How about any SJ for anyone on trolls? Let me guess, those don't count either.

In any case, since the point I'm making is precisely that a better selection of offense could turn more camps into mire, I don't need to sit here and cite examples one at a time. It's an obvious fact that merit level parties can reach a level where the need for shadows is overcome by either raw offense or other ways to mitigate MP loss, both in the past and present. So when you insist that adding/improving offensive subjobs is futile without an accompanying utsu substitute/nerf, it rings quite hollow.

I -am- being consistent by suggesting that if you buff one sub, you buff the others. You're asking for your /rng, and possibly /dnc to receive a boost worthy of allowing people to utilize the subs more (even though /dnc is already a super-hot sub). Its YOU that lacks any form of consistancy, because you're willing to allow other subs to rot, so long as you get more prestige to your precious rng job by way of more main job usage or subjob usage.

I like how you accuse me of fanatical favoritism to my precious job in the same sentence where you acknowledge that I also suggested buffing /DNC. Nice work, there.

But I guess I'll clarify. I would like to see /RNG, /DRG, /DNC, and /DRK buffed to be more valuable to melee, in approximately that order (/DRK serves a pretty useful purpose already, just not for melee). /SAM and /WAR are already good enough.

No, I'm not. I never had a problem with /nin until it became the de-facto way to do everything in safe-mode. I never had a problem with it until I was asked to fucking [....snip anti-/NIN diatribe...]

Not ONCE have I suggested eliminating, or even nerfing nin. Look the fuck back and check, instead of ramming your finger into my chest, accusing me of this and that. Nay, I have actually brought up numerous suggestions that wouldn't even TOUCH utsu -- the only suggestion I had that would change the equation was to place dual-wield on other jobs, which isn't touching utsusemi in the slightest.

Then do what WoW does -- eliminate dual wield as a subjob trait and instead introduce it as a trait that comes standard on a few jobs, like rouge (thf), hunter (ranger, maybe beastmaster), warrior (hi warrior and ninja). Much like call wyvern, however, this trait cannot be utilized when the job is subbed, regardless of when the job learns to dual wield. That way you can then upgrade the def/vit equations while downgrading utsusemi, and it wouldn't super-buff pld/nin tanking, which is already about as efficient as one could possibly hope for in a game.

So to recap:

- give native DW to all jobs that would really want it
- eliminate DW as a subjob trait for situational use on any other jobs
- upgrade DEF/VIT
- downgrade utsusemi

You're right, that won't obsolete /NIN at all.

Based on your "suggestion" and your impassioned rant against being forced to /NIN against your will, it's obvious that you have deep, unresolved personal issues with that subjob. It seems pretty clear that you cannot consider the subjob objectively, and are only truly interested in making sure no one asks you to use it again.

[neochaos]

WoW gives dual wield to multiple jobs as an ability because of the lack of subjobs. Those game mechanics are totally different that FFs. FF's job system revolves around utilizing subjobs depending on the situation, which leads to the "shits situational" answer to everything, because in FF, that is the universal rule. That's how the game is designed.

[Lucavi]

So then, if adding more effective offensive subjobs could turn more camps into the equivalent of mire or KRT (where you agree shadows are not necessary), how can you continue to claim that there's no point in adding more effective offensive subjobs because people WILL NOT go without shadows? Make up your mind.

When something better comes along, how often do people use the old things? When ToAU came along, how long did people use KRT, and thus, NOT use shadows? When colibri camp was discovered, how long did people use the mire for hardcore merits? Not very long for either event. KRT was all but abandoned except for nostalgia and times where everything else was locked up. Mire was downgraded to the place you let 68-74 go, and at least on Hades, is considered poor taste to have a tricked out group of 75's show up and push everyone else out.

The best XP spots are the ones that offer medium difficulty mobs that provide lots of xp. Those are consequently the places that you use shadows for. So long as SE stays true to that formula, players will react the same way. If trolls are someday downgraded from "too touch to reliably speed-chain/not worth the effort" to "hot diggidy dawg, these are just right for plowing over", like colibri, it stands to reason that people will blow through them with shadows. Its only when they become as weaksauce as fucking bones and imps that people will stop using utsu, because they don't need to. How many groups do you see at colibri running hardcore with 3 /wars, blood tanking and clearing out everything? Not too many -- maybe a sporadic single /war in the group, but never a large portion like you'd see at KRT, because you can't do it. Not yet, anyway.

How about your own main job as /mage on colibri? How about any SJ for anyone on trolls? Let me guess, those don't count either.

I'd do it if I could -- it'd be nice, but its not feasible right now. Nobody would really go for it outside of the LS, and its certainly not a strong enough combo to become socially acceptable, which is just about the only way to actually do things.

It's an obvious fact that merit level parties can reach a level where the need for shadows is overcome by either raw offense or other ways to mitigate MP loss, both in the past and present. So when you insist that adding/improving offensive subjobs is futile without an accompanying utsu substitute/nerf, it rings quite hollow.

You're missing the point. Simply pushing more power out of a subjob to make a main job more powerful isn't suddenly going to stop making those trolls hit like bears, or those HNM hit like howitzers. Even if you're plowing through the mobs at a faster rate of speed, you're still taking a shit-ton of damage along the way. Imps hit like pussies. Bones hit like pussies. Thats why you can do it there, but give an imp the attack power of a skoffin and come back and tell me you can just blow through them with /war. That's why I said that the defense also needs to be raised, -if- you're actively desiring more events to proceed like KRT or the mire.

I like how you accuse me of fanatical favoritism to my precious job in the same sentence where you acknowledge that I also suggested buffing /DNC. Nice work, there.

You pushed /rng long before you pushed /dnc. I only listed dancer because of the fact that eventually you actually posted it. You're still biased toward your ranger, though.

So to recap:

- give native DW to all jobs that would really want it
- eliminate DW as a subjob trait for situational use on any other jobs
- upgrade DEF/VIT
- downgrade utsusemi

You're right, that won't obsolete /NIN at all.

And if it does, is that a crime? You lose the effectiveness of one sub, while increasing the effectiveness of multiple subs. Seems better than keeping things the way they are, where you either sub /whm, /nin, or /drk for everything. What point is there in having subjobs if you're going to be pushed into using a single subjob for the majority of roles in a game. I can see one subjob for a few roles, and switch subs for different roles, but when you can steamroll just about everything just by leveling ninja and white mage to 37 and learning a few ins and outs about both jobs, there's a problem there.

Based on your "suggestion" and your impassioned rant against being forced to /NIN against your will, it's obvious that you have deep, unresolved personal issues with that subjob. It seems pretty clear that you cannot consider the subjob objectively, and are only truly interested in making sure no one asks you to use it again.

Then I guess I'm in good company, as many people agree with my line of thinking. Lets bring it back to you though: you're entirely incapable of thinking of the game where everyone isn't mitigating all forms of non-AOE magical damage, and entirely incapable of thinking of ways to actually modify the amount of damage taken to the point where there can be an actual choice between choosing to take damage and deal more damage, or deal less damage, yet take no damage. You call me biased, I call you biased. Two sides of the same coin.

WoW gives dual wield to multiple jobs as an ability because of the lack of subjobs.

And in the place of subjobs comes a plethora of various abilities for each job, instead of maybe a grand total of 10 things that a particular job can do by the time they hit 75, assuming they're not a mage job. I'll take a variety of effective moves over a stringent, limited amount of moves that always seems to leave people asking for new upgrades to their jobs over and over. The most you hear from WoW is a balancing of abilities, because they have plenty to choose from.

[XxSlusherxx]

Go play WoW if you like it so much,nobody is begging you to stay. If they suddenly made FFXI into WoW what would all the people who went to WoW only to come back do?

[The Q]

Go play WoW if you like it so much,nobody is begging you to stay. If they suddenly made FFXI into WoW what would all the people who went to WoW only to come back do?

Totally missing the point.

[Shuemue]

Go play WoW if you like it so much,nobody is begging you to stay. If they suddenly made FFXI into WoW what would all the people who went to WoW only to come back do?

Totally missing the point.

No shit, you've got to be pretty narrow minded to dismiss every element of gameplay in an MMO with 20x as many players as FFXI.

[Spider-Dan]

When something better comes along, how often do people use the old things? When ToAU came along, how long did people use KRT, and thus, NOT use shadows?

Uhh, hello Sanction?

If Signet received Sanction's exp bonus, KRT would be full of monks the same day. It has nothing to do with "weaksauce bones" or what have you; even after CoP's release, KRT was a top-tier camp, right up there with nexus, uletab, and lufaise.

People stopped going to KRT the day TAU came out, and it had nothing to do with the difficulty of bones.

I'd do it if I could -- it'd be nice, but its not feasible right now. Nobody would really go for it outside of the LS, and its certainly not a strong enough combo to become socially acceptable, which is just about the only way to actually do things.

Excuses. You complain about /NIN whoring, and yet when you happen to play the single best not-/NIN job at birds, you refuse to use it because it's not socially acceptable. Give me a break.

For the record, I have maintained for some time that DRG/magex4+COR+BRD is the best possible party on birds. I've been in several pickup DRG burn parties. I find it useful to practice what I preach about encouraging subjob variety, instead of just shouting for nerfs.

You're missing the point. Simply pushing more power out of a subjob to make a main job more powerful isn't suddenly going to stop making those trolls hit like bears, or those HNM hit like howitzers.

Trolls really don't hit very hard at all; colibri are honestly more dangerous. Without a move like Fang Rush/Rushing Drub/Pecking Flurry, there's much less chance of a oneshot, and Overthrow ignores shadows anyway.

You pushed /rng long before you pushed /dnc. I only listed dancer because of the fact that eventually you actually posted it. You're still biased toward your ranger, though.

My exact words were, "rather than nerfing /NIN, why not improve the existing SJs? Here, let me give you an example". My very next reply to you detailed a bunch of potential ways to improve /DNC. But I guess since I didn't fully disclose an in-depth plan for every underutilized subjob right at the start, it means I hate them all?

Give it up. I've directly stated that not only do I have no problem with improving /DRK and /DRG, I want them to do it.

[quote:bsynm1bq]So to recap:

- give native DW to all jobs that would really want it
- eliminate DW as a subjob trait for situational use on any other jobs
- upgrade DEF/VIT
- downgrade utsusemi

You're right, that won't obsolete /NIN at all.

And if it does, is that a crime? You lose the effectiveness of one sub, while increasing the effectiveness of multiple subs.[/quote:bsynm1bq]
I'm glad to see that you've finally come to grips with your hatred. As I already said, our goals are different. Your goal is to eliminate /NIN usage at any cost (up to and including a hamfisted nerf); my goal is to improve the other SJs to present a viable alternative.

Then I guess I'm in good company, as many people agree with my line of thinking. Lets bring it back to you though: you're entirely incapable of thinking of the game where everyone isn't mitigating all forms of non-AOE magical damage, and entirely incapable of thinking of ways to actually modify the amount of damage taken to the point where there can be an actual choice between choosing to take damage and deal more damage, or deal less damage, yet take no damage.

What, exactly, do you think I have been saying for the last 3 pages?

I propose improving and expanding upon additional offensive SJs and/or MP mitigation SJs like /DNC.
You claim that no offensive increase would be sufficient, since players are dead-set against taking any damage at all.
I cite examples (both past and present) where players are perfectly content to fight without shadows.
You accuse me of being incapable of thinking of new ways to take more damage and deal more damage?

Way to fail.

[drwaffles]

I don't use my sorc belt very often, only in solo or blm pt situations. I still have my p.rope for any sort of hnm, stoneskin, and other jobs. 1 more int is nice but come that's 3 enmity. Just pretend youre on a HNM and a blm nuked right before you and thats why your dmg is slightly less.

Yeah that's exactly what I mean. Sorcerer's Belt/Demon Helm +1 for solo/manaburn and Penitent's Rope/Wzd. Petasos +1 for anything involving a tank (unless it's some sort of ChainStun'd zerg ordeal). Kerb's philosophy that "-enmity is useless for BLMs" is pretty 'tarded, although I don't want to derail this thread into a debate about BLMs and enmity management.

[eva00r]

I think SE should give SCH capabality of limited status curing.

e.g.

SCH Only White Magic
Basna 40 MP, 30 seconds cooldown, Obtainable @ Lv 25
- Fix 1 status of : Silence, Paralyze, Blind, Poison in this priority.

Esuna 80 MP, 60 seconds cooldown, Obtainable @ Lv 45
- Fix 1 status of : Stone, Curse, Virus, Silence, Paralyze, Blind, Poison in this priority.

Basna will become handy in a hand of any mage jobs including WHM.
While Esuna-ga or Basna-ga will be SCH exclusive status-fixing spell. However, due to high MP and cooldown, SCH's fix will be pretty much limited if they do not /WHM.

[Araius]

I think SE should give SCH capabality of limited status curing.

e.g.

SCH Only White Magic
Basna 40 MP, 30 seconds cooldown, Obtainable @ Lv 25
- Fix 1 status of : Silence, Paralyze, Blind, Poison in this priority.

Esuna 80 MP, 60 seconds cooldown, Obtainable @ Lv 45
- Fix 1 status of : Stone, Curse, Virus, Silence, Paralyze, Blind, Poison in this priority.

Basna will become handy in a hand of any mage jobs including WHM.
While Esuna-ga or Basna-ga will be SCH exclusive status-fixing spell. However, due to high MP and cooldown, SCH's fix will be pretty much limited if they do not /WHM.

WHM's everywhere would collectively jump out of a plane sans chute, aimed to splat right on top of SE dev's.. I say give WHM that stuff, sure it wouldn't make them more useful for meripo, but it'd be further establishing them as the #1 main heal job.

[eva00r]

WHM's everywhere would collectively jump out of a plane sans chute, aimed to splat right on top of SE dev's.. I say give WHM that stuff, sure it wouldn't make them more useful for meripo, but it'd be further establishing them as the #1 main heal job.

Nah, they already are #1 healing job and the change won't take them down by a bit. The change should focus on expanding unfinished SCH horizontally while enabling WHM/SCH do better in healing job.

WHM's status removing spell has only 5 seconds recast and consumes minimal MP. While SCH's one will be pretty much random, you will not be able to select which status to remove. It wilil take 6x times longer to cooldown and consumes almost double MP. This change will bring SCH a bit closer to magic DD role since they do not have to /WHM to help those WHM, RDM, SMN removing bad status.

In the other way, RDM or BLM will feel more comfortable to /SCH since they won't completely sacrifice their status removing tools for Elemental/Enfeeble/Healing skills upgrade. WHM/SCH will sure find Basna handy while enjoy casting Drain, Aspir and having their Divine/Enfeeble skill upgrade.

[Nirokun!]

make it a strategem and i dont think whms would cry about it.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

How do Scholars NOT have Libra yet? It's in the damn .dats!

[Septimus]

How do Scholars NOT have Libra yet? It's in the damn .dats!

A lot of things are in the dats, doesn't mean that we will ever see them in game.

[Skeetaru]

How do Scholars NOT have Libra yet? It's in the damn .dats!

Hi, is your sig a joke?

Thanks,
Skeetaru