Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Priran]

So what? It's not "33% chance of restoring MP", it's "33% chance of restoring MP and resetting job abilities including other 2hours". If MP restore is so game-breaking, why would they not only give it what is all things considered a pretty good chance of activating, but stack it on top of something which most people would agree is more broken than the MP restore itself?

This is a huge difference between the analogy you are doing with your Benediction "fix". Wild Card grants you total and absolute heaven one out of three times you use the ability, it can not be part of your strategy ever... if you are making a strategy around Wild Card, you better be accounting for all of the values the JA can give and not only V and VI. We do such thing when doing stuff like DL, sending the COR to the RNG party where no matter what the COR rolls, it's still a good result.
But this is different; you can easily build a strategy out of your "full MP benediction" and that's where the ability becomes seriously broken. If you still think this is comparable to Wild Card, you really aren't analyzing the stuation with a cold mind.

It's really no fun rebutting you when you're being vague. I can think of a couple stupid "strategies" with the common denominator of requiring a zerg LS to perform. Of course, the problem with calling any of those "broken" is that people already do them with other jobs, to greater effect. Or, you know, said zerg LS could just zerg the same mob a million other ways.

There are strategies centered around Chainspell, Soul Voice, and Blood Weapon, and strategies that call for the use of multiple 2hours like Hundred Fists, Meikyu Shisui, and Manafont. Other 2hours are just nice for a buff in usefulness. Benediction is none of the above. I'd put it just above Perfect Dodge in usefulness, but THF has more going for it otherwise.

I asked this before, but what's wrong with giving WHM a strong 2hour? They're practically unheard of in BCNMs past 60, and they've got something approaching zero strategic involvement in the average battle.

[quote:1p5fvzh5]
Considering how overpowered you're making it out to be, let me guess: the goal of using Wild Card in these controlled environments is to force MP restore, right?

Your point? If you are implying MP restore isn't overpowered because i'm saying Wild Card is better under a controlled enviroment you totaly wooshed on the point. The reason you use WC on a controlled enviroment is because it is unpredictable and as such, if the result is not possitive, nothing happens. If it's possitive, you completely obliterate. Ofcourse, you can use it whenever shit hits the fan and hope for the best... but then again you could be giving your mages TP instead of MP... let's hope they have staff leveled so they can do Spirit Taker, yah?[/quote:1p5fvzh5]Wild Card III and IV are pretty good as well. The worst I can say about I and II is that there's only a handful of job abilities that would be a credit to the fight if restored. It's just that V and VI happen to be relevant to the discussion.

If MP restore was really that broken, people would be jumping on the chance to use it in a strategy. Instead, they just use COR mules to restore 2hours when they cock up.

So whats the point of MP restoration if the ship is already sinking?

Benediction is currently kind of all-or-nothing. You either last long enough with the HP you just got or it's straight back the the shitstorm you were just in. Giving full MP would at least be a chance to turn the fight around, especially when combined with other 2hours.

I don't know about your fights, but my fights go into trouble only when mages start calling the "Out of MP" alarm. Under your Benediction idea, people would just hit a 2hour that escencialy is giving them a fight reset as i said.

And in such a situation, it's currently useless. Hey, isn't that one of the points I've been arguing?

I'd use the phrase "second wind" instead of "reset" considering reset implies the entire fight is starting over, which it isn't. You're not suddenly back at the entrance with full HP/MP with nothing to worry about, you're still in the middle of the fight with 99 problems, of which impending doom ain't one. But it's still completely possible to screw up and still lose.

You say it's not because dead people are still dead and weakened still the same, which to be honest, is a bit too extreme, don't you think? If you have reached that point where everything is already going down the drain, you probably have many things to fix anyway. In a normal situation, with the benediction you present, you can easily notice when things are about to go down the drain and reset the fight.

You're really keen on painting it as a reset, huh?

It doesn't fix things that have already gone wrong. That's what I'm saying. It would be a reset if it could fix what you already screwed up. It's not erasing your mistakes, it's just helping you deal with the repercussions.

You say the mob's TP spam under 25% will still continue... one of the reasons some mobs are hard to handle after 25% is not only the actual TP spam but the fact your own MP reserves are likely drawing short already. Reseting them prevents the most dangerous escenario.

It's still not resetting. Most plans have some sort of contingency for killing the fuck out of whatever once it starts spamming. Suppose this plan had to be abandoned for whatever reason? Samurai died or whatever. Benediction with MP restore could help the group work through the last 25%. It wouldn't change the fact that you screwed up and had to change to a more difficult, improvised plan, but it would make it easier for this plan B to succeed.

And finaly, it's been long since i saw a WHM75 die to benediction.

It's been a long time since I saw a WHM75 use Benediction anywhere but Dynamis so I guess it's a wash.

[quote:1p5fvzh5]
If there's anything WHM needs it's for main healing to be as unfeasible for anyone except WHM as nuking is for anyone except BLM. Which I don't necessarily think is a likely change at this point in the game, but it's fun to watch SE go one step forward and two steps back like they did with Repose and Addendum: White.

Yeah, you are right. We should have 1 job for each roll only... the game sucks when there's alternatives [/quote:1p5fvzh5]Not sure if you're being sarcastic? Dancer, Scholar, and Red Mage aren't alternatives to WHM, they're replacements. The only things unique to WHM anymore are Cure V, Regen, and a handful of toys with nothing to do with healing.

[Maxxthepenguin]

[quote:1tn2lyyd]
If there's anything WHM needs it's for main healing to be as unfeasible for anyone except WHM as nuking is for anyone except BLM. Which I don't necessarily think is a likely change at this point in the game, but it's fun to watch SE go one step forward and two steps back like they did with Repose and Addendum: White.

Yeah, you are right. We should have 1 job for each roll only... the game sucks when there's alternatives

Not sure if you're being sarcastic? Dancer, Scholar, and Red Mage aren't alternatives to WHM, they're replacements. The only things unique to WHM anymore are Cure V, Regen, and a handful of toys with nothing to do with healing.[/quote:1tn2lyyd]

And yet for some reason people still use WHMs.

[BRP]

Seriously, get a frickin' SCH to do it for you.

I know only two level 75 SCHs and the only time I've seen SCH abilities in action has been WHM/SCH. Something tells me that might be a problem.


Lower nukes has lower damage/MP ratio than higher nukes. So using a lower nuke isn't exactly the best solution really. BLM don't need stoneskin, but they could certainly use self defense. Giving them one spell or two won't make them tanks(at least nowhere near what /NIN does in this game).


I wasn't really commenting on Benediction when I said Nirokun's idea was broken. I don't really care about Benediction, but a hateless, MP-free nukes for 30 or so seconds is horrid.

Mages being able to be replaced isn't a problem. What is a problem is that Bard cannot be logically replaced(Manaburns excluded). Even if you add buffing jobs, that'll just be another combo to add along with BRD. Also, you can't really replace a RDM with DNC, SCH, WHM, or so on. So it's a one-way street and that's bad.

[ronin sparthos]

I know only two level 75 SCHs and the only time I've seen SCH abilities in action has been WHM/SCH. Something tells me that might be a problem.


Lower nukes has lower damage/MP ratio than higher nukes. So using a lower nuke isn't exactly the best solution really. BLM don't need stoneskin, but they could certainly use self defense. Giving them one spell or two won't make them tanks(at least nowhere near what /NIN does in this game).


I wasn't really commenting on Benediction when I said Nirokun's idea was broken. I don't really care about Benediction, but a hateless, MP-free nukes for 30 or so seconds is horrid.

Mages being able to be replaced isn't a problem. What is a problem is that Bard cannot be logically replaced(Manaburns excluded). Even if you add buffing jobs, that'll just be another combo to add along with BRD. Also, you can't really replace a RDM with DNC, SCH, WHM, or so on. So it's a one-way street and that's bad.

The 'bandwagon' has only begun, i imagine in the coming weeks you will see many more high level SCHs around.

I think SE should really rework the whole tier idea on spells, why is it that hitting a fire elemental with water only going to effect resist rate? the damage potential for matching the strength with its weakness should be there.

Perhaps the equivalent of Dread Spikes in aspir form would be a good fit for BLM since i am almost sure that SE is reserving Aspir II for DRK. Of course there would have to be limitations on it.

Sublimation is a good start in trying to get parties away from *having* to have a refresher to operate in any efficient fashion what-so-ever, but Magic Bursts should be rewarded with getting half the MP spent on the spell that restored back or a similar reward for work done - more damage alone isnt going to cut it. You shouldnt *need* a BRD or COR or RDM to survive in a standard PT, there should be alternatives to MP restoration via party mechanics.

SE did a decent job with giving BRD some form of competition with COR - the idea was novel but like you said it comes down to now wanting a BRD and COR in the ideal cases but thats just because buffing jobs are what they are.... desired - much like good gear.

BRD needs work though many people see it as a 'perfected' job, half the jobs songs are useless and cannot be used in any capacity because of the 2 song limit - where is the bar-song slot, which could also double as etude slot. Minnes and the like are useless due to the fact that DEF is a complete joke in the game so i wont even touch that.

COR rolls, the few useless ones (namely the pet rolls and gallant) need work, the rolls should either go directly to the pet or only hit the pet jobs / people subbing a pet. Gallant Roll needs to be reworked completely, even if its a gimp stoneskin or something. The COR boost really helped put COR on a whole new level but simple tweaks are still being ignored.

[The Q]

How about let Benediction remove weakness along with it's usual full HP. I'd be happy with that.

I second this.

WHM needs some major work. RDM and now Scholar can do WHM's job just as good with additional benefits. What WHM brings to the table that these other jobs do not are only useful in a worst case scenario and you sacrifice spells and abilities useful in the majority of situations if you bring one in rather than a RDM and now Scholar.

[Shassira]

It's really no fun rebutting you when you're being vague. I can think of a couple stupid "strategies" with the common denominator of requiring a zerg LS to perform. Of course, the problem with calling any of those "broken" is that people already do them with other jobs, to greater effect. Or, you know, said zerg LS could just zerg the same mob a million other ways.

There are strategies centered around Chainspell, Soul Voice, and Blood Weapon, and strategies that call for the use of multiple 2hours like Hundred Fists, Meikyu Shisui, and Manafont. Other 2hours are just nice for a buff in usefulness. Benediction is none of the above. I'd put it just above Perfect Dodge in usefulness, but THF has more going for it otherwise.

I asked this before, but what's wrong with giving WHM a strong 2hour? They're practically unheard of in BCNMs past 60, and they've got something approaching zero strategic involvement in the average battle.

There is nothing wrong with giving WHM a "strong 2h". There is everything wrong with giving WHM a 2hour that recovers all MP. All i'm discussing is that the MP proposal for WHM is not well thought because it would introduce the game to yet another cheap tactic, which is the least thing we need.

Comparing Benediction to Perfect Dodge just means you or your WHMs have never had a chance to use it correctly. Take it as a free curaga X every 2 hours if you will, but it does have a use in a fight, unlike perfect dodge. PD has uses outside of fights though, which is better than other 2hours are.

Again, you think WHM needs a better 2hour and that's ok, i won't really dispute that even if i don't see the need. I just don't think MP is a good idea.

I'd use the phrase "second wind" instead of "reset" considering reset implies the entire fight is starting over, which it isn't. You're not suddenly back at the entrance with full HP/MP with nothing to worry about, you're still in the middle of the fight with 99 problems, of which impending doom ain't one. But it's still completely possible to screw up and still lose.

Feel free to discuss semantics all you want, i wont go into that. The word is meant to ilustrate a similar scenario, not to label it with an exact definition. Just to add to your phrase, you are right, it's not a reset. You are back with full MP with a mob close to dying.

It's been a long time since I saw a WHM75 use Benediction anywhere but Dynamis so I guess it's a wash.
[/quote ]

Seen a couple benedictions on salvage bosses that are so nicely timed you feel glad that thing exists. Sure, we could've done it without it, but that's the case for most 2hours. It does not make it a bad one.


[quotedod17dr][quotedod17dr]
If there's anything WHM needs it's for main healing to be as unfeasible for anyone except WHM as nuking is for anyone except BLM. Which I don't necessarily think is a likely change at this point in the game, but it's fun to watch SE go one step forward and two steps back like they did with Repose and Addendum: White.

Yeah, you are right. We should have 1 job for each roll only... the game sucks when there's alternatives [/quotedod17dr]Not sure if you're being sarcastic? Dancer, Scholar, and Red Mage aren't alternatives to WHM, they're replacements. The only things unique to WHM anymore are Cure V, Regen, and a handful of toys with nothing to do with healing.[/quotedod17dr]

You proposed, as quoted, healing to be unviable for other jobs except WHM as a solution that would've been good if implemented early on. And i replied with obvious sarcasm, advocating for job variety. DNC, SCH and WHM are situational alternatives if you ask me, but i do agree RDM acts as a total replacement in most cases.
Which means we, probably, agree that WHM needs something unique as i'm sure many people here agree too. All we are not agreeing on is on your proposal of a new 2hour that restores MP.

Either way, it's a pointless argument since it's likely not gonna go one way or the other, sadly. At the rate SE touches jobs, WHM will get another buff in... 2010 maybe? After they are done adding Invincible to SAM

[Genosync]

Seriously, get a frickin' SCH to do it for you.

I know only two level 75 SCHs and the only time I've seen SCH abilities in action has been WHM/SCH. Something tells me that might be a problem.

With this last update, putting recharges on Strategems at 1min at Lv75 (screw XP pts, we're not concerned with that in this topic it seems) put Scholar where it should be. I don't necessarily agree with giving them access to Tier IV nukes (in fact I don't agree at all), but it is nice that it still costs them a charge to use them. Scholar was built with the thought of using abilities to change the way magic works--and to only let them do that once every four minutes is a slap in the face, because in that four minute time period I'd be casting upwards of probably 32 spells. Allowing only one of those to be changed is kinda bullshit. Hated it, I used Scholar twice after I hit 75 on it. Posted my JoL results for lulz, and then used it for some ISNM action and it was mediocre at best.

Now, every minute, you can afford to do some epic action... like, AoE an enfeeble (I'd still sub RDM, bitches), AoE a buff, cast Raise nearly instantly, tons of things. Once a minute. And you can do four in a row, and by the time you've used them, you'll almost have another one back. Epic, epic, epic. 4 minutes sucked, hard.

Now with the ability to access all Status Cures, Raise II, and Reraise without a WHM sj, Scholar is freaking amazing win. They even have their own source of refresh (remember, with the hat it ends up getting you 3mp/tick) as well as reduced costs to magic, and Conserve MP without BLM sj... they can sub RDM for everything. Even faster cast/recasts, all the enfeebles and buffs, and full versatility. Good fucking game.

The only problem is having Helices along with Tier IVs... now that Scholar finally has some extra Elemental Skill gear (god, that would make me so happy to play with), Helices land with ridiculous accuracy, plus you have freaking Klimaform too (anyone casting Helices without weather should die in a fire). Then you've now got Tier IV nukes. And that puts the possible damage output of a Scholar into territory they shouldn't be able to access. Seriously, it's like giving PUPs Magic Mortar.

Lower nukes has lower damage/MP ratio than higher nukes. So using a lower nuke isn't exactly the best solution really. BLM don't need stoneskin, but they could certainly use self defense. Giving them one spell or two won't make them tanks(at least nowhere near what /NIN does in this game).

Self defense? They shouldn't have self defense on things you'd really want to have self-defense on, in my opinion.

In a strategy game, where do you keep your mages? In the back. So, keep your mages in the back, deal with the AoE with immediate curing, and if they die in one hit to an AoE, they probably aren't designed to be on the mob anyway.

When soloing, stop complaining about your lack of Gravity and buffs... you've got Sleep, you've got Stun, and you have Bind, and with Scholar SJ, you have higher Enfeebling Skill anyway. If you can't survive it with these things, again, the job isn't designed to be fighting that mob anyway. And maybe you should learn a little bit more about that second of delay between Bind's effect wearing and the target actually being able to move, but whatever. Bind kicks ass.

I wasn't really commenting on Benediction when I said Nirokun's idea was broken. I don't really care about Benediction, but a hateless, MP-free nukes for 30 or so seconds is horrid.

Anything hateless is retarded. I'm sorry, but there's a cost for doing your action, learn what -enmity gear is if you're that worried about it, and get better tanks. The shit works, seriously. Manafont as is, really, is amazing. Uninterruptable, MP-free spell casting for 60 seconds. The one thing I would want added to it, actually, is enfeebles casted on you have no effect. You can't be slept, you can't be paralyzed, you can't be petrified. This makes Manafont truly uninterruptable, and was what it was meant to be like anyway.

Because I feel this is important... On the subject of Benediction
Benediction is another subject entirely... restoring full MP is a bit on the side of, well, broken. Corsair can only do it with 16% accuracy, the other 16ish% being half MP. Seriously, that's pretty balanced right there. Now, I can see maybe, 25% mp, or a set amount of MP (better imo, like 150,200 or maybe WHM Lv x2-3 is a good way to go). Mass raise for alliance, maybe, but give it only like 10% XP restored or something. Clearing weakness is a little too much and allows for zombie tactics to be reintroduced (rush,die,raise, rush while weakened, die, raise, bene, rush,die,raise,rush,die,raise without having damage crushed until this point). Allowing four wipes is too much.

And I don't know a lot of 2hrs that need fixing. Bene, maybe a little bit, but being able to cure all statuses and HP is pretty cool and useful (I have used Bene before only to mass cure status as fast as I could because it probably would make everyone die if I tried to cure each target, give that a thought). In the order of jobs, MS, 100fist, PD, Bene, Mana, CSpell, Invince.... yeah, give Invinicible the ability to make magic damage 0 too. All damage, to zero, for thirty seconds. Sure, the high hate associated with it is nice, but it's not enough to push it to a level equal with other 2hrs. BW, Familiar, Flow, SV, Meikyo, Mijin(lulzzzzzzzzzzzz) don't know what to do with besides completely changing it or making it do ridiculous and more constant damage, Spirit Surge, seperating this 'cause paragraph getting long.

EES, Wild Card (is perfect, don't even try), Overdrive (maybe something a little extra, it's not terrible but not amazing), Azure Lore (needs something extra, doubling mods is cool but only one spell during the two hour benefits from it, your CA'd spell), Trance (w/e, idk what to say, maybe make steps have zero recast during trance, does need something), and Tabula Rasa (it's pretty gewdddddd).

Yeah, so out of all of them, that's 1, 2, 3 that definently need something, and two that are lacking. So, there's some issues there, but even still they've all got their uses, and some of them are made weaker because of the overall strength of the job. We'll see.

Mages being able to be replaced isn't a problem. What is a problem is that Bard cannot be logically replaced(Manaburns excluded). Even if you add buffing jobs, that'll just be another combo to add along with BRD. Also, you can't really replace a RDM with DNC, SCH, WHM, or so on. So it's a one-way street and that's bad.

Bard can't be replaced right now because Elegy is limited only to the Bard. Just because Slow II was added did not replace the insane need for Elegy (or get even close). Giving Bards access to Massacre Elegy would make this even worse of a case. For the sake of balance, another job does need to have a Slow ability that is similar to a Bard's. However, in this case, said job also needs to have an extremely low ability to deal damage, or deal decent damage but unable to cast buffs. Maybe they'll eventually come up with something, but at the current time I don't see anything eligible or could be made decently eligible to get such an incredibly potent Slow.

meh, idk. I can't really type anymore about this right now, my brain's starting to fry.

Sorry for making it really long. Read the section(s) you actually care about and feel free to ignore the rest, won't hurt my feelings.

[BRP]

I was commenting on how there are little to no SCHs running about. So saying "Just have a SCH in your party" isn't very viable.

The problem with you statement is that it simply doesn't work that way. People will sub jobs for Stoneskin and not get what they need out of /SCH. So basically it's a choice between staying alive and getting fixed, that's a problem(it's mirrored in other areas of the game, some of which have been fixed already are in attempt to). I'm pointing out what is reality, don't see how you can argue with it.

[Ohemgee]

Only thing WHM needs is Barlight/dark for casual shit.

[Kerberoz]

When soloing, stop complaining about your lack of Gravity and buffs... you've got Sleep, you've got Stun, and you have Bind, and with Scholar SJ, you have higher Enfeebling Skill anyway. If you can't survive it with these things, again, the job isn't designed to be fighting that mob anyway. And maybe you should learn a little bit more about that second of delay between Bind's effect wearing and the target actually being able to move, but whatever. Bind kicks ass.

Or you could sub RDM and kill the mobs twice as fast and rest that MP back, with no risk of dying. Have fun trying to solo anything harder than a pudding with SCH sub. A well equipped BLM does not need any more enfeebling skill to stick bind, and just bind by itself is not going to help on an unsleepable mob anyway. There are no benefits to BLM/SCH solo, at all. I'd really love to see a BLM/SCH attempt to pop Ix'aerns solo... or do anything harder than Mt.Z mobs.

[Sanjiyan]

Clearing weakness is a little too much and allows for zombie tactics to be reintroduced (rush,die,raise, rush while weakened, die, raise, bene, rush,die,raise,rush,die,raise without having damage crushed until this point). Allowing four wipes is too much.

Are you talking about a melee job? Or a mage job?

For a mage job, dying the first time means you get your MP pool reduced to weakened level, so if you get raised or even weakness removed you still have a fraction of your full MP pool. You won't get much damage out of zombie tactics using BLM because of that. A couple nukes and they're out of MP for good, dead, weakened, or not.

For a melee job, removing weakness doesn't reset their JAs, and whatever spike damage they used initially that lead to their demise, they don't have back. Not gonna get much damage out of that either if they zombie. Not to mention their horrible delay when weakened.

The only benefit removing weakness quickly is useful for, is getting tanks back on their feet fast when situations turn bad and the tanks wipe. Even then, a PLD tank with a small MP pool will still need some help/time; NIN tanks on the other hand, is good to go. Also, don't forget dying removes all buffs from the player so that'll take some time to get back up on the tank so it's not exactly "a little too much". Don't forget you also need MP for raises from somewhere, and if you zombie 4 times per person x 5 in the party where WHM resides, that's a heck of a lot of MP from elsewhere.



I still think it's a good idea, and people can certainly devise a plan around this unique ability if Benediction can remove weakness and refill all the HP. If nothing else it makes WHM a little bit more useful when shit hits the fan.

[Genosync]

Clearing weakness is a little too much and allows for zombie tactics to be reintroduced (rush,die,raise, rush while weakened, die, raise, bene, rush,die,raise,rush,die,raise without having damage crushed until this point). Allowing four wipes is too much.

Are you talking about a melee job? Or a mage job?

For a mage job, dying the first time means you get your MP pool reduced to weakened level, so if you get raised or even weakness removed you still have a fraction of your full MP pool. You won't get much damage out of zombie tactics using BLM because of that. A couple nukes and they're out of MP for good, dead, weakened, or not.

BLM was never used for massive zombie tactics in the first place, it's a little job that everyone seems to think doesn't exist anymore, and it's called Ranger, but whatever, not my loss

For a melee job, removing weakness doesn't reset their JAs, and whatever spike damage they used initially that lead to their demise, they don't have back. Not gonna get much damage out of that either if they zombie. Not to mention their horrible delay when weakened.

hi2u rng zombie zerg

The only benefit removing weakness quickly is useful for, is getting tanks back on their feet fast when situations turn bad and the tanks wipe. Even then, a PLD tank with a small MP pool will still need some help/time; NIN tanks on the other hand, is good to go. Also, don't forget dying removes all buffs from the player so that'll take some time to get back up on the tank so it's not exactly "a little too much". Don't forget you also need MP for raises from somewhere, and if you zombie 4 times per person x 5 in the party where WHM resides, that's a heck of a lot of MP from elsewhere.

that's a heck of a lot of mp, but you seem to forget that if you delevel, then level back up on raise, you get your mp bar filled, even though it's only 25%, and if you switch in Lv74 MP gear before you die... good game. And yeah, I did use to do that on purpose. It's a tactic, nonetheless. But I don't know why we're arguing about this while Puppetmasters are having their matons whack kirin for a 2400+ dmg WS, and could easily do 3800~ if they had the time to set it up. Oh, and yeah, it's the Fusion half of Light too, and now that they've made SCs resist less...

I still think it's a good idea, and people can certainly devise a plan around this unique ability if Benediction can remove weakness and refill all the HP. If nothing else it makes WHM a little bit more useful when shit hits the fan.

BROKEN. You wipe, you wipe. If you didn't have a good enough backup plan to anticipate it, too fucking bad. If you're doing something in small numbers, you already know the risk when a key person (such as your only tank, if you're stupid enough to only use one even in small numbers) drops and should have planed for it too.

Removing the five minute timer of weakness and restoring full HP is something that, plain and simple, should not exist. Sure, it'd be wonderful to have. Hell, I wouldn't turn it down. But it's not going to happen and it's a poor idea to give to the job anyway. Bene, as it is, is pretty fucking epic and when it has its use, you will seriously rave about how well your White Mage timed it. God, one time in Salvage, Zhayolm, we all ate a discharge because a BLM pulled hate (was an honest mistake, I didn't think he was going to either), followed by a Discoid right after. WHM Benediction, saves the day completely because there was no way out of it.

Moral of the story: You don't need it to remove weakness! Use it before the person dies to begin with.

[Sanjiyan]

So the idea is broken because of a single job known as a RNG? That's great. RNG needs a buff anyway. It's not like they couldn't just increase the delay on ranged attack either, which is what I found odd about it in the first place. Why are ranged attack the exception?

And I guess it's also a good idea to have your tank be borderline 74 all the time. I'm not arguing, you are. I'm just trying to discuss one potential aspect of change a WHM could get to make them more unique aside just regen III, protect V, and cure V. And I don't even care about PUP doing insane damage because right now it seems that they still haven't figured out how to keep their puppet alive after blowing it's load and they've been lolPUP so long I don't care that they have their moment in the spotlight.

And I'm sure nobody has ever, EVER died before at the watch of a WHM.

The real moral of your story: tactics are bad, and WHM should not be considered for change, especially not benediction since it's already overpowered.

[Gilthas]

Personally I think the big problem with WHMs now is how much SCHs have been buffed in the latest update (Note: I don't think that SCHs should be nerfed, they should be left as they are. If anything they should fix the recast/duration of Klimaform).

Its a bit unfair that SCHs are now capable of doing AoE status heals at least once per minute with the minor penalty of using double the MP (which many times will actually be cheaper than a WHM healing each party member one at a time) and WHMs are still stuck at using Divine Seal/Veil once every 10 minutes (or 8 minutes if for some reason you decided to merit the thing). I think its really imperative that WHMs finally get AoE status cures. My proposal is that Divine Veil should be changed to a Job Trait that automatically makes every status healing spell AoE, aka, no more need to use Divine Seal for an AoE Erase/Paralyna/whateverna. That or give WHMs the actual ga spell, but I think the first option would be better.

Personally I don't think this would be gamebreaking, but yes, I am aware that it would make AoE status effects from certain mobs much easier to deal with. But then again, SCHs already do this and they now get access to all status cure spells. I think this would level the playing field for WHMs.

Can't really think about much else that WHMs should get at the moment, other suggestions I have are merely some play things for WHMs, like Banish IV, Banishga III or Holy II, or even Reposega (which would be pretty awesome). Maybe some new buff spells of some sort (but I'd actually like BLMs to get some of these).

[Kenji]

Benediction is fine at the moment. Being able to restore MP, or remove weakness, would be nice, but not needed. There are other 2 hours that need addressing more: Astral Flow (in later levels), EES, Azure Lore, etc. for starters.

WHM's problem, is mostly because SCH was buffed and the fact that many other jobs can sub WHM and still heal good enough. That's the key phrase right there: "Good enough." WHM has the following going for it:

Cure V - The biggest advantage, I'd say
Regen III - next biggest reason, but only helps the WHM on efficiency
Raise 3 - always wanted at endgame
Reraise2/3 - helps the WHM only
Curaga III and IV - hardly used
Pro-ra3-5, Shellra3-5 - SCH can aoe these, and if worse comes to worse, RDM's can single target buff. Tier V is end-game only
Teleport-altep, yhoat, vazhl - nice, but not needed, per se. You can always pay a WHM to port your group.

That's it. Everything else is obtainable on another job, or subbable. WHM's slim advantage right now is power, and for anything but endgame events, that power isn't needed. Most other jobs (SCH, RDM, SMN/WHM, or even a BLM/WHM) can heal "Good Enough." In some cases (SCH aoe status cures) they can do it better.

Subbing SCH gets the WHM more mp efficiency, which is one of the things the job needed, and thus why I've removed any mention of it from the list. But I think everyone can pretty much agree that Divine Veil needs to be made into it's own JA, on a 1-5 minute cooldown. This will bring it on parity with SCH. Given that SCH can start nuking decently at the drop of a hat, giving WHM something a bit extra wouldn't hurt. I'm now against the idea of specific ga spells, as that just means more spells to macro.

What that extra is, I couldn't say. Perhaps the Esuna spell - Removes all debuffs on a single target, 1 min cooldown. Perhaps a Pax spell - buff a target to generate less enmity.

As for BLM, if SCH does get stoneskin and blink, that would just make it the default sub for BLM. I'd rather see choices be situational. If you can get a SCH or SMN to give you stoneskin and blink (or diamondhide from a BLU), you can probably get away with subbing SCH. Soloing or other parties, you'll be back to RDM or WHM. Aspir II might work. Or how about a trait, 38+:

Mana tap - gain some mp back on a resisted spell. If your spell is 50% resisted, you could get 50% of the mp back. Make it a random proc, but preferably proc fairly often. Probably cap it at 50% MP back, so you're not getting all your MP back from a spell that's fully resisted.

Just throwing it out there.

[The Q]

I believe the moral is that no matter what anyone thinks should be changed or fixed at least one extremely vocal person will jump at the chance to refute every idea and claim that everything is just fine as is. Drives me fucking nuts.

Not pointing the comment at any one person, as it has happened continuously through this thread.

[Gilthas]

As for BLMs, the recent SCH buff probably also puts them up near BLM territory.

My SCH is still low level so I have no idea how much of a damage increase Ebullience provides. So I have no math saying how much a Tier IV Thunder from a pimped SCH would do compared to a pimp BLM.

For the sake of this argument I'm going to assume that a Tier IV from a BLM still does more damage, but an Ebullience Tier IV from a SCH is more MP efficient.

I think one of the things that I'd like to see for BLMs (and this probably applies more to the HNM scene since who the hell invites BLMs to merits unless they're going to be manaburning stuff?) is a hate-shedding/pax ability . Yeah I know that BLMs can wear -enmity gear, yes I know that THFs can now steal enmity from BLMs, but I think it would be a nifty thing for BLMs. It'd be something like "Yeah, SCHs are more MP efficient with their nukes but I can nuke more times because I now have more space to manage hate". Maybe it would be more balanced if this were a Job Ability that just halved the enmity of the BLM's next spell. I don't think the recast timer should be more than 3 minutes though.

My next point would be about MP issues for BLMs. Some BLMs argue that awesome BLMs don't need Stoneskin/Blink/Gravity and so they can just sub SCH for the vastly superior MP management, personally I prefer to be realistic. I think giving SCHs Stoneskin at the very least would be a great buff for BLMs.

Another thing I'd like to see would be a new spell that generates MP for BLMs. People like to mention Aspir II, but a spell like that has one big disadvantage: if the target has no MP its useless. What I'd really like to see is a new spell that converts damage done to the enemy in to MP. A spell like that would have more uses than Aspir II.

BLMs crowd control abilities are currently/in the near future overshadowed by SCHs. As soon as SCHs gain the ability to use Manifestation+Sleep II, BLMs will lose exclusivity of their token crowd control spell. I honestly don't see what can be done in this respect, or if anything should be done about it. Maybe SCHs really should have better proficiency at crowd control than BLMs. The only suggestion I have, and even this probably is going in to BLU territory, would be to give BLMs a new Stun spell that isn't Thunder based. Basically one that could work on mobs that aren't thunder/earth resistant. Of course this could make several HNM even more of a joke than they currently are unless SE just made them immune to this new spell.

I also think it would be pretty nice if SE gave BLMs a melee buff spell, something like Bravery from FFXII or Steel from the original FF. I'm not asking for something to bring BLMs in to TP burns parties, I don't see any need to make BLMs any more useful in those, this would just be a neat spell to use for low man activities in BCs or fighting some NMs.

I remember someone mentioning once something about adjusting damage from the different elemental spells so that they could work a bit more like AM2's, that all have the same strength. That sounded like a good idea that they could do for BLMs.

SE most likely won't ever add anything like these suggestions (the only one that's likely to occur is giving stoneskin to SCHs).

[Vail]

Regen III - next biggest reason, but only helps the WHM on efficiency
Raise 3 - always wanted at endgame

as a 75 whm I never liked Regen III, it has a shorter duration and consumes more MP, 400hp cured over 1minute for 64mp (6.25 hp/mp) vs regen II 300hp over 1min15sec for 36mp (8.33 hp/mp)

notice how the difference is less then a cure II (24mp) but regen III cost 28 more MP then regen II.

even if you have cleric's briault and max regen merits, it's 560 regen III (8.75 hp/mp) vs 475 regen II (13.19 hp/mp)
I don't merit Regen Either, I'm a barspell whm so that's the simple math of it. I choose the better hp/mp ratio spell that has a longer duration (so I can /heal more and not have to constantly recast regen III)

Regen III is a mystory to me, because all it offers is more HP in shorter time then Regen II, for less effective returns. Honestly if someone needs more HP sooner then a regen II, you should probably just cast a cure II.

Oh... and Raise III is only for emos who can't keep a solid buffer. Raise I gets the job done, only reason I'd see raise III as noteworthy is for raising multiple people back to back. When it comes to getting the job done: Raise I is best, it has the exact same effect(gets them up, same 5minute weakness) on the person and cost only 150mp vs raise III's 250mp.

in real events, returned exp doesn't matter, keep a good buffer and stop crying for a whm to waste MP because you can't waste use your time getting a real buffer. I've only ever deleveled from lv75 once, and it when was right after the whm dinged 75 we had our NIN DC and we got chewed part (this back in 2004) I was seriously only 19exp into level but I had reraise III on and just learned, but it's the only time I've ever gotten "Vail falls to level 74")

[ronin sparthos]

My opinion is Raise II is just as good as Raise III. There isnt a huge differencial between the two.

[Vail]

My opinion is Raise II is just as good as Raise III. There isnt a huge differencial between the two.

hell they even buffed raise I to 50% exp return like what? a year ago? and people still cry about getting r1, I honestly can't understand why 1200 vs 600 vs 240 exp is such a big deal when manaburns can get upto 15k an hour and TP burns can meet or break 20k an hour.

How often do people honestly die ? Seriously are people using zombie tactics still? is it such a big deal to turn off merit mode for a single hour of a merit party once a week?