Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Darwinion]

WHM's problem, is mostly because SCH was buffed and the fact that many other jobs can sub WHM and still heal good enough. That's the key phrase right there: "Good enough." WHM has the following going for it:

Cure V - The biggest advantage, I'd say
Regen III - next biggest reason, but only helps the WHM on efficiency

Really? I actually find Regen III to be extremely inefficient as far as HP restored/MP spent ratio is concerned. It costs nearly double the MP of Regen II. And of course to get the most out of Regen III the targetted playe has to regen around 400 HP. If that player takes a bad hit during that time you gonna drop a Cure V on him (or maybe a DS Cure III) and then the player will probably max out his HP with the active Regen III. Bad HP/MP ratio.

So I don't even use it any more. Much more efficient to drop a Regen II on a player who's in the yellow. Much less MP used and you are much more likely to get the full effect of the spell.

[Valena]

Back on Benediction, I know it could afford a few improvements, but nothing much is really needed. A removal of Terror, Amnesia & Charm would do the trick, just to make it plain & perfect in the status cure bonus.

Give it a perfect chance to kick in, even if the Whm is paralyzed at the moment, and you'll really have a jack of all trade 2hr.

Actually, since 2004, Benediction is a 2hr I've gradually seen take more and more importance. Since a lot of damage mitigation tools have been introduced, be it /nin or /sam for 2handers, blood tank is really in the past now. And since the HP pools of the tanks & DD are not acting like permanent yoyos, Benediction has a real impact on whichever fight.

As for Whm recognition, I could see the job use a few buff there and there of course. I don't think Sch is going to replace Whm yet though. Whm earns as much from /sch than Sch earns from Addendum:White imo.

A permanent Divine Veil would be overpowered I think, and especially in the hate department. But I had some idea of changing Divine Veil in a reactive job trait. Like, in a window of let's say 2 seconds after receiving an enfeeble, if the Whm pulls the -na spell of quick, then it turns AoE. If the Whm is too slow to react, or if he was casting something else, he still could use Divine Seal to get DV in.

Another change I would welcome gladly would be non self-centered buffs, like Shellra <t>, and Barfira <t>. Why the hell do I have to travel in range, and risk to eat a Terror move, or whatever AoE the mob has, just for the sake of buffing ? A lot of flexibility could come from being able to target a tank directly, and apply or reapply those buffs.

[Nyuneko]

WHM did get bitten very hard when -na/erase was put on SCH, who can effectively AoE-nize those status removal spells more efficiently than a WHM could with Divine Seal(Veil), to top it off, Divine Veil was added to WHM to give WHM more an edge in the supporter field, and is now nullified by SCH getting the status removal AoE better and without costing a DS.

Personally, I don't think Benediction needs an update, anything(that is suggested so far) to it seems to be making it into a lucky Wild Card-sorta effect, while Wild Card is limited by luck, Benediction isn't.

I wouldn't so call Raise III a reason to keep a WHM in a group, as said, Raise II is just as good, cost less MP and save you quite a lot of EXP loss still. If anyone emo in my LS because he didn't get a Raise III to save 200 EXP off his lazy bum, then he should get TFO.

So, the only reasons a WHM is ever wanted in a group would be:
-Cure V, you can survive without it most of the time, can always blame your group for their lackings!
-Barpetra/Barvira, the only 2 Bar-ra's that are over 37, which SCH can't AoE-nize it with a RDM sub either.
-Merit 2s, P/S5, devotion(I love it as a mage.), etc.

There really isn't much left for WHM to dominate on, I haven't seen a SCH in action, but if their B-(or +?) skill can sleep II perfectly fine, and their nukes are just a little under BLM, I wouldn't mind replacing WHMs with SCH in events I go to.

I guess some buff to WHM could help, perhaps a job trait to increase the potency of bar- spells: Barstatus actually resist the status effect, and barelement would reduce further damage.
An Enmity down job trait that allow WHM to spam more Cures than other jobs?
A cure potency job trait that allow WHM to cure for more even on the same cure, more MP efficient.
Probably overpowered in some cases, but as thing stands now, SCH can easily replace WHM and even BLM in some events.

[Gilthas]

A permanent Divine Veil would be overpowered I think, and especially in the hate department.

I'm not sure what you mean by this but it seems like a non-issue to me.

Do you mean that it could be abused for tanking? That would have some simple fixes. Divine Veil is a 37+ trait I believe so only WHMs would have access to it. And if the problem is that it would make your WHM a better tank just make it so they have the same hate attached to them as the single target version regardless of how many targets are hit by it.

Sure this spell would give less hate than the spell being cast multiple times on multiple targets, but I believe WHMs should really get an edge in this regard. Because SCHs at the moment have a distinct advantage over WHMs at status curing.

[ronin sparthos]

My opinion is Raise II is just as good as Raise III. There isnt a huge differencial between the two.

hell they even buffed raise I to 50% exp return like what? a year ago? and people still cry about getting r1, I honestly can't understand why 1200 vs 600 vs 240 exp is such a big deal when manaburns can get upto 15k an hour and TP burns can meet or break 20k an hour.

How often do people honestly die ? Seriously are people using zombie tactics still? is it such a big deal to turn off merit mode for a single hour of a merit party once a week?

The issue is that your a WHM and have access to higher tier raises and unless your in a timed event or shit is hitting the fan its 'better' to give someone less EXP loss than whats more MP-efficient to you.

Yes, EXP is a joke to get back - but thats no reason to toss out Raise I unless again shit has hit the fan or the event demands people get up asap. Dying is one of the easier things to do in the game and you might as well give out the 'good' raise unless your on clean up duty.

BTW ive never deleveled to 74 myself, ive gotten within 4k though

Back on Benediction, I know it could afford a few improvements, but nothing much is really needed. A removal of Terror, Amnesia & Charm would do the trick, just to make it plain & perfect in the status cure bonus.

The issue with this is that your going to be nerfing monsters that already are grasping on the edge of being 'too easy':

Curing Terrorize? You'll water Wyrms down to breaths, wings and roars, many other NMs employ terrorize as merely a stun II - it doesnt last that long anyways.

Amnesia? You'll make imps a joke - they already are a joke and the amnesia is the only thing keeping them somewhat difficult. Again, amnesia doesnt last that long and primarily the mobs that use it are weak by nature.

Charm? Poroggos pride themselves on charming you to make the fight harder and though Water Bomb is a close second on the annoying-meter being able to unfrog people would make these monsters a joke and the whole threat of your friends turning on you neutralized.

This is why these Bar-songs for Bard were never released, because someone realized that it would completely make easy fights a bit too easy. (The Bar-charm one at least)

Perhaps Regen IV, a more mp-efficient than III regen might be a good idea - a 3min Divine Veil again wouldnt be broken. Pax was an idea i thought SCH would get, but WHM could employ it in lowering enmity on one target and lastly something along the lines of Pray from FFX - small instant curaga stuck on a timer.

[Xanthe]

I guess some buff to WHM could help, perhaps a job trait to increase the potency of bar- spells: Barstatus actually resist the status effect, and barelement would reduce further damage.

Try barspell merits and pairing bar-status with bar-element spells (e.g. Barparalyzra + Barblizzara). I roll with +125 elemental resist and +15 MDB from barspells which is far from insignificant. The plague effect on Tiamat's Tebbad Wing resists fairly often between Barfira and Barvira. Batang (our premiere NIN tank) takes only around 11 damage from Tiamat in the air between Barfira and fire resist gear. I'd say barspells are doing quite nicely as they are.

[crux]

WHM did get bitten very hard when -na/erase was put on SCH, who can effectively AoE-nize those status removal spells more efficiently than a WHM could with Divine Seal(Veil), to top it off, Divine Veil was added to WHM to give WHM more an edge in the supporter field, and is now nullified by SCH getting the status removal AoE better and without costing a DS.

With a ten minute timer, I never saw Divine Veil as anything more than a bonus. A ten minute timer has never been practical for the events in the game that could really make use of it, so WHM was hardly on a different plane than any other job that could sub WHM for the same benefits minus Divine Veil and Stona. So now Scholar has usurped that role. Are there really many WHMs that were so desperate for utility that they cling to the loss of value of one unique -na spell and a JA usable once every ten minutes? Divine Veil could have used a lower recast long before Scholar existed, so if the existence of Accession and Addendum: White has only made that more clear, hopefully SE will get the message.

More to the point, while I can't completely deny that White Mage is somewhat lackluster at what they are intended to do best, I've never been aware of any strong lack of desire for one of the strongest healing jobs in the game. WHM have the best suited spells, merits, and gear for magic resistance buffs in the game, bar none. They have the best practical, low enmity, huge curing spell in the game. With the additional benefits of subbing Scholar as of late, they can maintain their MP more efficiently than any other time in the past. Are they indispensable in any given situation that calls for a healer? I wasn't aware that they should be. The existence of SCH and its newest array of abilities and spells may further decrease the utility of WHM as a whole, but WHM still has a role in the game that isn't going to be diminished any time soon. Could WHM use improvements to make them more ubiquitous as the "healing" job of Vana'diel? Perhaps, but as a person whose only 75 job for the last several years has been WHM, I don't see any reason to pity the job.

[Sanjiyan]

I also support the idea to make divine veil into a JA with a decently short recast. 10min, shared with a double cure potency (which could use some work too because with the pace of game these days 10min for a WHM defining ability is a bit long), is just plain stupid with SCH now.

How about barlightra and bardarkra? With the potential problem of making certain light/dark based mobs a little easier, I've always wondered why BRDs get them and WHMs don't.

How about a Raise IV with no exp loss, full HP/MP when getting up (or 75%), and a reduced weakness time (3 min)?

Make regen III more efficient, or reduce the cast time of regen shorter so it's used more often. I think another problem why regen III isn't used more often is that in situations where keeping the tank alive is important, there's often overcuring, which makes regen just a waste of MP.

[Koyangi]

Whoever said BLM should solo Puddings with /SCH is a moron, Gravity is the reason a BLM can and will solo Puddings. If it's any other mob that doesn't resist the fuck out of Sleep, then yeah more than likely /SCH could be viable.

[ronin sparthos]

No need for Raise IV when Raise III is already great, No weakness means hi2u zombie tactics which is great in an offline RPG, bad in an MMO.

[DoliantheBard]

I'd like BRD to have the ability to sing songs, other than etudes, on single party members. The idea that I sing 4 songs in about 30s and then stand around until they wear off is just silly. I can spend my time curing on /whm or /sch, but I'd much rather spend my time providing my party with custom tailored buffs.

[Stanislaw]

WHM has the following going for it:

Cure V - The biggest advantage, I'd say
Regen III - next biggest reason, but only helps the WHM on efficiency
Raise 3 - always wanted at endgame
Reraise2/3 - helps the WHM only
Curaga III and IV - hardly used
Pro-ra3-5, Shellra3-5 - SCH can aoe these, and if worse comes to worse, RDM's can single target buff. Tier V is end-game only
Teleport-altep, yhoat, vazhl - nice, but not needed, per se. You can always pay a WHM to port your group.

That's it.

Repose?

[Gilthas]

Other jobs have Light based sleep spells. Repose doesn't make WHM unique.

[Stanislaw]

Other jobs have Light based sleep spells. Repose doesn't make WHM unique.

The WHM thing was compared with a SCH. I'm pretty sure SCH doesn't have Light based sleep.

[Gilthas]

You're right.

[Valena]

A permanent Divine Veil would be overpowered I think, and especially in the hate department.

I'm not sure what you mean by this but it seems like a non-issue to me.

Do you mean that it could be abused for tanking? That would have some simple fixes. Divine Veil is a 37+ trait I believe so only WHMs would have access to it. And if the problem is that it would make your WHM a better tank just make it so they have the same hate attached to them as the single target version regardless of how many targets are hit by it.

Sure this spell would give less hate than the spell being cast multiple times on multiple targets, but I believe WHMs should really get an edge in this regard. Because SCHs at the moment have a distinct advantage over WHMs at status curing.

I was mainly supposing that we could lose a bit in term of hate control. A spell that always hits, lets say 4 ppl instead of just one, is building 4 times the hate. Granted -na spells really never have been an issue in enmity management, I just though it may cause additional problems.

But i'd be all for it of course, it would really be a great asset.

[Kenji]

Regen III - next biggest reason, but only helps the WHM on efficiency
Raise 3 - always wanted at endgame

as a 75 whm I never liked Regen III, it has a shorter duration and consumes more MP, 400hp cured over 1minute for 64mp (6.25 hp/mp) vs regen II 300hp over 1min15sec for 36mp (8.33 hp/mp)

And Regen 1 is even better. But there are recast timers. With Regen III, you could technically get away with casting Regen spells with little to no dead time. Regen III on the tank, regen I and II on different melee, etc. And in some cases, the extra MP isn't a concern, as in tossing one on a tank that's tanking something big. Regen III doesn't hurt WHM efficiency; it's just another tool that has it's own set of conditions, and is something unique to WHM. That latter part, is the sole reason I listed it.

Repose is a sleep. Several other jobs have sleeps, so it's not unique to WHM, which is why I didn't include. I was listing only the truly unique things a WHM brings to the table. I suppose I didn't have to list regen III, when there is regen food and paeon's. I wasn't comparing WHM to any specific job, but just in general.

The other big motivator for na-ga removal, is that a lot of the really nasty mobs, have AoE status effects. It's part of what makes them nasty. So, to best counter it, you now bring a SCH, instead of the game's premier healer?

[Damane]

WHM did get bitten very hard when -na/erase was put on SCH, who can effectively AoE-nize those status removal spells more efficiently than a WHM could with Divine Seal(Veil), to top it off, Divine Veil was added to WHM to give WHM more an edge in the supporter field, and is now nullified by SCH getting the status removal AoE better and without costing a DS.

Personally, I don't think Benediction needs an update, anything(that is suggested so far) to it seems to be making it into a lucky Wild Card-sorta effect, while Wild Card is limited by luck, Benediction isn't.

I wouldn't so call Raise III a reason to keep a WHM in a group, as said, Raise II is just as good, cost less MP and save you quite a lot of EXP loss still. If anyone emo in my LS because he didn't get a Raise III to save 200 EXP off his lazy bum, then he should get TFO.

So, the only reasons a WHM is ever wanted in a group would be:
-Cure V, you can survive without it most of the time, can always blame your group for their lackings!
-Barpetra/Barvira, the only 2 Bar-ra's that are over 37, which SCH can't AoE-nize it with a RDM sub either.
-Merit 2s, P/S5, devotion(I love it as a mage.), etc.

There really isn't much left for WHM to dominate on, I haven't seen a SCH in action, but if their B-(or +?) skill can sleep II perfectly fine, and their nukes are just a little under BLM, I wouldn't mind replacing WHMs with SCH in events I go to.

I guess some buff to WHM could help, perhaps a job trait to increase the potency of bar- spells: Barstatus actually resist the status effect, and barelement would reduce further damage.
An Enmity down job trait that allow WHM to spam more Cures than other jobs?
A cure potency job trait that allow WHM to cure for more even on the same cure, more MP efficient.
Probably overpowered in some cases, but as thing stands now, SCH can easily replace WHM and even BLM in some events.

um... merited shellra V and merited barspells with Relic legs have a BIG impact on HNM fights, trust me. SCH can never touch the magic defense buffing a whm offers, at least not now

[Xno Kappa]

Fix Phalanx II for RDM's.
It makes no fucking sense that SCH's can give out the highest capped Phalanx to tanks with the level 32 spell versus a RDM's merited version, the whole Enspellga deal is bullshit too.

Just delete SCH in fucking general, its a job waiting to be exploited with abilities better suited to WHM/BLM/RDM respectively.

[Damane]

Fix Phalanx II for RDM's.
It makes no fucking sense that SCH's can give out the highest capped Phalanx to tanks with the level 32 spell versus a RDM's merited version, the whole Enspellga deal is bullshit too.

Just delete SCH in fucking general, its a job waiting to be exploited with abilities better suited to WHM/BLM/RDM respectively.

first delete SCH because its useless and now delete it because its very good. I dont understand you guys. SCH is now a real job and is good.

it can nuke decent, it can heal decent, it can support tanks/pt decently, and it can enfeeb decently with the right Subjob

but it never comes close to the masters of that particular art.

BLM nukes still will be stronger due to more MAB traits and higher elemental skill (less resists), not to mention the ancient magic II line and is number 1 stunner for fights.
RDM still will be the better supporter, enfeebling master due to cat2 merits, refresh, haste, convert and ZOMG chainspell stunning.
WHM will still be master of magic defense buffing and hatefree cureing! Not to mention they have the best light based sleep that is realy handy in some situations and have way more cure potency+ equip options then sch hast/will have.

SCH excells at beeing realy versatile in the basic scenarios. It can now switch from Healer to Nuker form one second to the other, that what makes SCH very good. The support/croud control scenario is still dependend on sub, since SCH dont get natural stoneskin blink enspell phalanx gravity etc.

so where is the problem? not to mention rdm, whm blm can also sub sch and benefit greatly form it