Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Xno Kappa]

Fix Phalanx II for RDM's.
It makes no fucking sense that SCH's can give out the highest capped Phalanx to tanks with the level 32 spell versus a RDM's merited version, the whole Enspellga deal is bullshit too.

Just delete SCH in fucking general, its a job waiting to be exploited with abilities better suited to WHM/BLM/RDM respectively.

first delete SCH because its useless and now delete it because its very good. I dont understand you guys. SCH is now a real job and is good.

it can nuke decent, it can heal decent, it can support tanks/pt decently, and it can enfeeb decently with the right Subjob

but it never comes close to the masters of that particular art.

BLM nukes still will be stronger due to more MAB traits and higher elemental skill (less resists), not to mention the ancient magic II line and is number 1 stunner for fights.
RDM still will be the better supporter, enfeebling master due to cat2 merits, refresh, haste, convert and ZOMG chainspell stunning.
WHM will still be master of magic defense buffing and hatefree cureing! Not to mention they have the best light based sleep that is realy handy in some situations and have way more cure potency+ equip options then sch hast/will have.

SCH excells at beeing realy versatile in the basic scenarios. It can now switch from Healer to Nuker form one second to the other, that what makes SCH very good. The support/croud control scenario is still dependend on sub, since SCH dont get natural stoneskin blink enspell phalanx gravity etc.

so where is the problem? not to mention rdm, whm blm can also sub sch and benefit greatly form it

The problem is exactly what I said in my post, the job was ridiculously unnecessary. zOMG SCH can g0es from teh healer to teh nukerz in a second!@!?!!!2!! Yeah, this concept was already created, its called RDM.

The abilities and spells could've been used to greatly benefit WHM/BLM/RDM yet now all we got is more bitching about more job balancing that people won't shut up about until its addressed. Rightfully so, with retarded crap like SCH being able to -na ga better then WHM's with Divine Veil. The whole fucking point of the job-trait being added was to make WHM's more attractive yet SE pulls dumbshit like making SCH. It's to the point where all SE does is add "fluff" content to keep everone interested and simple-minded people eat the shit up.

[Damane]

The problem is exactly what I said in my post, the job was ridiculously unnecessary. zOMG SCH can g0es from teh healer to teh nukerz in a second!@!?!!!2!! Yeah, this concept was already created, its called RDM.

The abilities and spells could've been used to greatly benefit WHM/BLM/RDM yet now all we got is more bitching about more job balancing that people won't shut up about until its addressed. Rightfully so, with retarded crap like SCH being able to -na ga better then WHM's with Divine Veil. The whole fucking point of the job-trait being added was to make WHM's more attractive yet SE pulls dumbshit like making SCH. It's to the point where all SE does is add "fluff" content to keep everone interested and simple-minded people eat the shit up.

you mean like back then when RDM got convert, refresh, dispel and that suff?... Seriously I dont think SCH is overpowered at all, it has its Limits like every job.

[Kerberoz]

Fix Phalanx II for RDM's.
It makes no fucking sense that SCH's can give out the highest capped Phalanx to tanks with the level 32 spell versus a RDM's merited version, the whole Enspellga deal is bullshit too.

Just delete SCH in fucking general, its a job waiting to be exploited with abilities better suited to WHM/BLM/RDM respectively.

first delete SCH because its useless and now delete it because its very good. I dont understand you guys. SCH is now a real job and is good.

it can nuke decent, it can heal decent, it can support tanks/pt decently, and it can enfeeb decently with the right Subjob

but it never comes close to the masters of that particular art.

BLM nukes still will be stronger due to more MAB traits and higher elemental skill (less resists), not to mention the ancient magic II line and is number 1 stunner for fights.
RDM still will be the better supporter, enfeebling master due to cat2 merits, refresh, haste, convert and ZOMG chainspell stunning.
WHM will still be master of magic defense buffing and hatefree cureing! Not to mention they have the best light based sleep that is realy handy in some situations and have way more cure potency+ equip options then sch hast/will have.

SCH excells at beeing realy versatile in the basic scenarios. It can now switch from Healer to Nuker form one second to the other, that what makes SCH very good. The support/croud control scenario is still dependend on sub, since SCH dont get natural stoneskin blink enspell phalanx gravity etc.

so where is the problem? not to mention rdm, whm blm can also sub sch and benefit greatly form it

1. AM2 is extremely situational. It's not tier 5 and usually inferior to tier 4.
2. BLM/SCH is pretty useless in most situations. It's been stated why many, many times. No stoneskin, no blink, no gravity. Sure, you could get those buffs from other party members and just not use all that extra MP the sub gives you, but then what's the point of using BLM over any other job?
3. SCH does not have that much less elemental skill. It's not enough to matter on anything but Tiamat, Kirin, etc.
4. You get 3/4 of Magic Attack Bonus IV just by subbing BLM, and 5/8 of it by subbing RDM. SCH gear is only slightly worse for now, and they get an unsubbable damage+ ability.

The support/croud control scenario is still dependend on sub, since SCH dont get natural stoneskin blink enspell phalanx gravity etc.

And.... so? There's practically no reason to use anything but SCH/RDM. Magic Attack Bonus I is +20. Magic Attack Bonus II is +24. GG SE.

[Xno Kappa]

The problem is exactly what I said in my post, the job was ridiculously unnecessary. zOMG SCH can g0es from teh healer to teh nukerz in a second!@!?!!!2!! Yeah, this concept was already created, its called RDM.

The abilities and spells could've been used to greatly benefit WHM/BLM/RDM yet now all we got is more bitching about more job balancing that people won't shut up about until its addressed. Rightfully so, with retarded crap like SCH being able to -na ga better then WHM's with Divine Veil. The whole fucking point of the job-trait being added was to make WHM's more attractive yet SE pulls dumbshit like making SCH. It's to the point where all SE does is add "fluff" content to keep everone interested and simple-minded people eat the shit up.

you mean like back then when RDM got convert, refresh, dispel and that suff?... Seriously I dont think SCH is overpowered at all, it has its Limits like every job.

Back then as in what? Pre-RotZ when 5% of the people on these forums played the game?

Or do you mean like 4 months ago when 100% of all the several mage jobs on these forums could have gotten the buff they needed to fill out their roles instead of it being whored out to make a new half-assed job? I never once said SCH was overpowered, I'm simply stating the whole concept of the job is a bitch slap to mage jobs everywhere wanting something new to help further define their role and make them more attractive.

DELETE SCHOLAR AND WHORE ITS ABILITIES TO WHM/BLM/RDM!
There, I'll bold it for emphasis to get my point across.

[CaptainN]

The problem is exactly what I said in my post, the job was ridiculously unnecessary. zOMG SCH can g0es from teh healer to teh nukerz in a second!@!?!!!2!! Yeah, this concept was already created, its called RDM.

The abilities and spells could've been used to greatly benefit WHM/BLM/RDM yet now all we got is more bitching about more job balancing that people won't shut up about until its addressed. Rightfully so, with retarded crap like SCH being able to -na ga better then WHM's with Divine Veil. The whole fucking point of the job-trait being added was to make WHM's more attractive yet SE pulls dumbshit like making SCH. It's to the point where all SE does is add "fluff" content to keep everone interested and simple-minded people eat the shit up.

you mean like back then when RDM got convert, refresh, dispel and that suff?... Seriously I dont think SCH is overpowered at all, it has its Limits like every job.

I kinda see what he's saying, scholar can do pretty much everything a rdm can do only better. Sure it doesn't get tier 2 enfeebling spells but blind II and paralyze II are shit anyway. Seems like all we got left is chainspell +stun/convert/refresh, and depending on how good you and your shell is you might not need either of those 3 (except refresh), but I could be missing something.

[LD]

scholar can do pretty much everything a rdm can do only better

MP battery, tanking. You can overstate SCH's enfeebing prowess all you like, but as long as RDM has that A+ skill, you can't say it enfeebles better. What it IS best at is crowd control, but that was never really RDM's forte


I'm actually amazed how quickly this has degraded into a mage bitchfest, I can't believe some of the crap you people are saying. As I stated before, the only job I believe actually has something to worry about, and should be adjusted, is WHM, but this was true before SCH even existed. SCH may be more MP efficient than WHM with its better charge usage (I qualified it like this, because there's no reason for a WHM to sub anything other than SCH), but it isn't yet an altogether better healer, just as it isn't a better nuker than BLM. It gets close to both, but both jobs have something that makes sure that SCH doesn't just replace everything.

[ronin sparthos]

SCH basically took any hope of BLM in standard parties and beat it to death seeing that push comes to shove if a player cant get a TPburn going, you might as well get a SCH over a BLM. But yeah, its already lolstandardexp already so its not like that SC adjustment was going to change anything unlike what SE magically thought.

BLM still retains its superiority in HNM damage / Dynamis etc, but the issue of getting a party slot for any exp? nah. Still gonna be soloing from 52-75, which makes a whole lot of nonsense.

[Vail]

scholar can do pretty much everything a rdm can do only better

MP battery, tanking. You can overstate SCH's enfeebing prowess all you like, but as long as RDM has that A+ skill, you can't say it enfeebles better. What it IS best at is crowd control, but that was never really RDM's forte


I'm actually amazed how quickly this has degraded into a mage bitchfest, I can't believe some of the crap you people are saying. As I stated before, the only job I believe actually has something to worry about, and should be adjusted, is WHM, but this was true before SCH even existed. SCH may be more MP efficient than WHM with its better charge usage (I qualified it like this, because there's no reason for a WHM to sub anything other than SCH), but it isn't yet an altogether better healer, just as it isn't a better nuker than BLM. It gets close to both, but both jobs have something that makes sure that SCH doesn't just replace everything.

enfeelbe skill doesn't do that much for you, the things people wish they could be enfeebled reliably simply can't be no matter if you're a mnk/whm or a rdm with 340+ enfeeble skill (sky gods, ToAU HNMs)

as a rdm I can enfeeble grand wyrms fairly well (tiamat, jorm) and even mess up omega and ultima. I haven't done these fights on blm so idk how well a blm with C+ and +skill gear can enfeeble then, but I think they can land their spells.

oh and the best enfeeble in the game is given by a job with only a C in it's magic skills. People need to STOP putting so much emphasis on the letter grade of a skill and accually look at the effect being given. Carnage Elegy, brd spell based of C skill levels ~ with a flat 52% slow effect (with horn+1 which you should have) kills what rdm has to offer from it's merit II spells, and brds can make a single cast last upto 7minutes and 12seconds~ gogo troubadour~

[LD]

That's all well and good, but the point is you can't say SCH is a better enfeebler, and as long as skill level has something to do with accuracy, then there's a point in bringing it up.

As a DD, I don't believe SCH is really any better off than BLM. As a buffer, it isn't quite a RDM, but it can get a spot, but BLM was never a buffer, so the comparison is flawed.

Hirokei Kiaza, by your logic more than half the jobs shouldn't exist, since they all just do similar things in a different way. Now that SCH is finally working right, it truly is a nice new twist on the old mage role. Without a bit of spice, shit gets bland, and if you load too much into one thing, it taste like hot raw tire rubber. But that's not what this is about...

You really seem to exemplify the emo mage. You realize, of course, that if SCH hadn’t been made, you wouldn’t want or even feel you needed any of its traits, right? Who played this game when RDM got an equally large boost is irrelevant, the fact is it happened and we’re all the better for it. I'd suggest you take your opinions and that eyesore of an avatar and think about what your job's position really is.

[Xno Kappa]

That's all well and good, but the point is you can't say SCH is a better enfeebler, and as long as skill level has something to do with accuracy, then there's a point in bringing it up.

As a DD, I don't believe SCH is really any better off than BLM. As a buffer, it isn't quite a RDM, but it can get a spot, but BLM was never a buffer, so the comparison is flawed.

Hirokei Kiaza, by your logic more than half the jobs shouldn't exist, since they all just do similar things in a different way. Now that SCH is finally working right, it truly is a nice new twist on the old mage role. Without a bit of spice, shit gets bland, and if you load too much into one thing, it taste like hot raw tire rubber. But that's not what this is about...

You really seem to exemplify the emo mage. You realize, of course, that if SCH hadn’t been made, you wouldn’t want or even feel you needed any of its traits, right? Who played this game when RDM got an equally large boost is irrelevant, the fact is it happened and we’re all the better for it. I'd suggest you take your opinions and that eyesore of an avatar and think about what your job's position really is.

Bringing up a job's adjustment before the majority of us even played the game is irrelevant. SMN's only had teh carbuncle did j00 know!?
There use to be a pretty solid belief on why SE shouldn't make new jobs when the old ones weren't even balanced yet. I guess that shit got tossed out the window for the sake of a "nice new twist" when some of the old jobs are just as bland as ever. And yes, the same old jobs have been begging for new traits/spells/JA's/whatever even before SCH was released. Your right though, why the fuck should SE care about balancing jobs? Lets just add a truck-load of new jobs made of the same regurgitated shit that could've been put to better use.

Hell, since we're digressing from the main discussion of the absolute "no-fucking-point" of SCH with my avatar why not bring up your hideous sig while we're at it? Hell, lets talk about whether the chicken came first or the egg...

[ronin sparthos]

That's all well and good, but the point is you can't say SCH is a better enfeebler, and as long as skill level has something to do with accuracy, then there's a point in bringing it up.

As a DD, I don't believe SCH is really any better off than BLM. As a buffer, it isn't quite a RDM, but it can get a spot, but BLM was never a buffer, so the comparison is flawed.

Hirokei Kiaza, by your logic more than half the jobs shouldn't exist, since they all just do similar things in a different way. Now that SCH is finally working right, it truly is a nice new twist on the old mage role. Without a bit of spice, shit gets bland, and if you load too much into one thing, it taste like hot raw tire rubber. But that's not what this is about...

You really seem to exemplify the emo mage. You realize, of course, that if SCH hadn’t been made, you wouldn’t want or even feel you needed any of its traits, right? Who played this game when RDM got an equally large boost is irrelevant, the fact is it happened and we’re all the better for it. I'd suggest you take your opinions and that eyesore of an avatar and think about what your job's position really is.

Problem these days is that everyone is multi-tasking in EXP, everyone brings more than one gun to the EXP/merit barfight which detracts from specialist classes who would have been ok 3-4years ago but these days you cant just be a one-trick pony unless you dominate the market on a specific facet of partying - and thats what BLM used to have, a complete monopoly on magical damage.

Now you'll say well 'RDM could nuke effectively' and i'll say how many RDMs actually geared for pure nuking? SCH has dropped from the skies and presents the oppertunity to do 'good enough' nuke damage + curing to warrant a spot in EXP + refresher. BLM is in the position where being able to only nuke isnt going to get you a slot especially since capping damage on VT isnt as hard as say an HNM. SCH has effectively put any idea of a BLM party aspect to bed - why get the specialist when the versitile job can do some nukes and then swap back over to healing?

Factor in TPburn and SEs inability to shake up the status quo and BLM is retreating to only having an edge in HNM/endgame where it wins purely on having better skill/gear. Even if magically balance was brought back to parties you'd just see people inviting SCH over BLM for bursts since they can do that and heal at the same time - its not like after one SC+MB the mob is on the edge of dying - why get the specialist when you can have your hybrid swap - nail the magic burst then swap back to healing?

In exp:

BRDs buff and pull.
COR damage and roll dice.
RDM can haste/fresh/enfeeb/tank/heal/offnuke.
PLD aim to tank and do damage in exp.
NIN tank and again do damage.
SCH can heal and nuke good enough to effectively be a 'good enough BLM'. Sleepga II ftw as well.
WHM can only heal, cure V in a pinch yeah.
BLM can only nuke, crowd-control via sleepga II.

[LD]

I don't see how any of us playing is relevant when whether we were playing the game or not, it doesn't change the fact that someone did and it had a marked effect on the game, an effect that is being seen again in SCH's boost. I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth and be more mindful of the words coming out of yours, this is one of the few cases SE changed a job that desperately needed it. SCH was shaping up to be the WOG PUP before the 10th, so can you really say any job (besides PUP) was really more deserving? I'll bet you can, but even MNKs don't think they need changes more than PUPs (a job that was also recently greatly improved).

Considering I just stole a pic and used MSpaint, I think it's a decent piece of work that communicates what I meant it to. At the very least, it's not a gaudy, blinking monstrosity.


Ronin, I've covered why none of that really matters earlier. Why do you care about TP burns? You have mana and you can solo better than any melee. Going on like this is like comparing COR to BLM; while they both do magic damage, only one of them can buff, and in a TP burn it will be depending on that more than the bit is has in common with BLM. The comparison is weak, Ronin, you BLMs have really got to get off your "I'm still the best, but I have competition that can do things I can't" Red-hot, fish-hooked dildo and get on with your lives.

[Vail]

You realize, of course, that if SCH hadn’t been made, you wouldn’t want or even feel you needed any of its traits, right?

not true, many jobs have been asking for new abilities (mostly similar to what SCH got) before WotG even came out, I myself have been stating that whm needs something for maintain it's own MP poll (rather it's a spell, JA, or trait) for nearly 3 years (when I leveled rdm)

Hell it started sooner then that for me, by the time I was lv55 whm (my first job) I was already jealous of what a rdm could do for the common tank of the time (pld) and how everything a whm could do wasn't much next to that. A whm around this time has more trouble enfeebling monsters as well, so it's all the more reason the allure of rdm became more driven into me. However it wasn't until I was a 75whm already that I even took the time to really level rdm off the ground.

It took me a year to get whm to 75 (granted I wasn't very hardcore into the game at that point) and took me 3 months to get rdm to 75 (played alot more hardcore and had the benefits of rng burn parties on birds in sky, which was F'ing awsome at the time~) so things went alot quicker, and alot of my parties was myself as rdm with no other support healers around.

Every sense the melee burn stuff picked up more and more as time went on, blms started to feel they needed more of a push. By the time ToAU merit burn parties came about: blm was pushed out of "normal" parties, and I know blms have wanted something to be more desireable in said parties.

So really, it wasn't scholar getting this stuff that made whm/blm/rdm want new stuff, that want was already there, SE kinda made an odd (stupid?) move in taking all those wants and making it a new job. I don't think that completely satisfies anyone's wants/needs

[Xno Kappa]

I don't see how any of us playing is relevant when whether we were playing the game or not, it doesn't change the fact that someone did and it had a marked effect on the game, an effect that is being seen again in SCH's boost. I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth and be more mindful of the words coming out of yours, this is one of the few cases SE changed a job that desperately needed it. SCH was shaping up to be the WOG PUP before the 10th, so can you really say any job (besides PUP) was really more deserving? I'll bet you can, but even MNKs don't think they need changes more than PUPs (a job that was also recently greatly improved).

And yet here we go again with the flawed logic.
Its good that, "SCH was shaping up to be the WOG PUP," wasn't the case yet PUP can stay PUP right? This is retarded, you've obviously gone ahead and proven my point on why new jobs shouldn't be added until existing ones are balanced.

[LD]

pup can stay pup....are you trying to say that I was saying PUP should stay the way it was or are you saying that as I marked PUP as the standard of suckiness, it goes to prove that new jobs shouldn't be added? Both are loads of horseshit, in any case, since 'balance' is a painfully subjective word and PUP, one of the newest jobs before WOG, was the only one that was unquestionably bad and in need of additions out of 18 jobs. The rest were 'good enough' to make way in the game, so they could all have been thought of as balanced, couldn't they? Meaning PUP was deserving of attention, since it was the only unbalanced job.

Of course, as I said, this is a horribly subjective line of thought. The only facts that can be gleaned are that PUP sucked and SCH sucked, so they needed to be changed.


Vail, wanting something new and needing it are two different things. The circumstances involved in your WHM taking a year to get to 75 could have just as easily had you take the same amount of time as RDM or visa-versa. I wont say RDM isn't more desirable as you level up, but there are plenty of people who level undesirable jobs in shorter amounts of time and WHM is one of the four jobs that count(ed) as a 'mage job', a prerequisite for most HNMLS. Of course, unlike BLM, WHM may actually need the help for exp gain. Point being, the time you took to get it to 75 speaks more to your desire or ability to level it than the job's strengths or weaknesses.

[Kerberoz]

So were you molested by a BLM as a child, or what? Still upset about pt invites from 2004?

Because the job isn't horribly useless, it doesn't deserve even the tiniest adjustment in 4+ years? It's not hurting any other jobs. We're not asking for tier 5s. We're not asking for SCH to be nerfed, even though that would probably be for the best. Just a few simple boosts and maybe 1-2 useful spells after 4+ years of nothing. It wouldn't take time away from other jobs.

The only "nerf" i think SCH deserves is an adjustment to Magic Attack Bonus I -> IV. It's ridiculous that the first level of the trait is stronger than the next 3 levels combined.

[Shuemue]

About fucking time RDM's were reminded they're not so special.

[LD]

I'm a MNK, don't tell me about that shit. I'm resigned to never being changed, why can't you be?

[Shuemue]

I'm a MNK, don't tell me about that shit. I'm resigned to never being changed, why can't you be?

BLM75 & MNK75, I'm so stuck in 2006

[Vail]

Vail, wanting something new and needing it are two different things. The circumstances involved in your WHM taking a year to get to 75 could have just as easily had you take the same amount of time as RDM or visa-versa. I wont say RDM isn't more desirable as you level up, but there are plenty of people who level undesirable jobs in shorter amounts of time and WHM is one of the four jobs that count(ed) as a 'mage job', a prerequisite for most HNMLS. Of course, unlike BLM, WHM may actually need the help for exp gain. Point being, the time you took to get it to 75 speaks more to your desire or ability to level it than the job's strengths or weaknesses.

my whm took a year because for the first 6 months of my ffxi time I only played on weekends at a internet cafe, on top of that 4k an hour was a "good" party, I had to do missions, unlock sky (which I did at lv67) and I spent way too much time helping people do AF, which took hours-to-fullday back then because idk, maybe drop rates werent as good, and the fact we took full alliances of lv50-60s to do most AF3 fights. I did limit break II with 18 lv51-55 people, it was a nightmare leading everyone around, but that's the kinda shit we had to deal with back then. Now people just either get on their own 75 or ask a 75 friend (or at least: pay someone) to do this stuff for them. It was a different game back then, then it is now is why it took me a year to get whm to 75.

As for adjustments that kick people's butts, I nearly quit whm at lv69 because of the Raise III "update" when they removed half the sources of the spell at the same time a large wave of NA whms were getting into that level range, many of my whm friends ended up paying millions of gil just to get raise III, it went from a 5k spell to a 5mil spell practicly overnight, I didn't even learn Raise III until lv73 because of that update. (idk why I even got into saying all this, but why not it's a good story to show how things use to be)

Honestly I don't know if you were around in those times, but the game has changed a hell of alot: but yeah every sense 2004 whms have wanted something new to compete with rdms better, and 4 years later it's still there.

About fucking time RDM's were reminded they're not so special.

when a SCH or WHM does anything I've accomplished on rdm, then maybe I won't think I'm so special~ until then I'd still wager that 99% of the whm and 100% of the sch community can't compete with my rdm in any endgame event. I've taken the place of a whm without any more support then a whm would get (technicly less since I don't have a rdm to refresh or help me cure, I had to do it all by myself)

not all RDMs live up to my level, but a fair amount do. If alot of rdms did play at my level, then you wouldn't see whms around at all~, so I guess really it's bad rdms that make whms still around. go figure