Opinions for Job Adjustments

[LD]

One day I will read a Ronin Sparthos post, and it won't be a post where he's complaining about this game.


One day.

And that will be the day I read that post until the end rather than reading a few sentences and having the rest blend into a disgusting mixture of salty tears and boiling blood.

Call it what you want, im not here to mince words and give SE free golden pedestals. You can sing your songs of gospel, i'll continue to write down my opinion on things as they come to my attention.

Most of which had absolutely nothing with Black Mage which is what we were discussing, you stupid twat. You're using all of that crap to draw away from the real topic. BLM has manaburns and soloing, whether SE intended them to have either has nothing to do with the fact that they HAVE THEM NOW. Even if Manaburn is usually weaker than TP burn, you can't argue against the EXISTENCE of BLM's great soloing ability, and as long as both exist, the argument for adjusting BLM to fit better in TP burns will always be an attempt at monopolization.

BLM can gain exp in small groups better than melee can and can do as well and sometimes better in a full group with enough mobs. This is a fact, and as long as this is a fact, nothing else matters. From this fact, we can draw that BLM, all things considered, needs no help in exp gain, so it doesn't need to be included in TP burn. BLM does not fail at exp gain, it's just weaker in the most common form of it (and not even substantially), and it's stronger when low-manning. Going on about what SE wants or how the game should work does not matter, because the reality of the situation is BLM is still fucking soloing, duoing, and trioing better than any melee can while having its old advantage in end game and most events. What SE thinks doesn't matter unless they actually act on it, and last I checked, BLM can still solo for 3-10k/h, depending on how good he is (a friend of mine quoted at least 8k, so don't try to pull any shit with me).

BLM is good at solo. It has manaburn, which is weaker than TP burn, but is still much better than the pre-TOA days and can sometimes exceed TP burns. It’s good in most end game events, it has good crowd-control. It can cure surprisingly well. It can enfeeble decently. It does ungodly damage. The only thing it can’t really do is tank, you want to help it do that too? Give SS to /SCH and BLM would have everything it needs. Cut the bullshit, the core job needs nothing.



MNK's situation, while very similar to BLM's, is still quite different. While they are both very good at what they do (killing VT/low def mobs and ignoring def, respectively), both jobs can gain exp decently, and MNK's potential applications in end game events is much more limited (and frankly, end game is a lot more important than meriting). Sure, they have Salvage, but depending on the zone another DDtank can work nearly as well, so even at their best, they have competition (BLM just NOW has competition). Despite its DOT potential in merit, its DOT is weak on the high level/def mobs. DRK's zerg potential is ahead by leaps & bounds (more so before than now, but there's still kraken), and MNK's relatively low DMG and Level Correction have SAM (at least) doing a great amount more on high level/defense mobs. With the 2H fix, these jobs don't have as many problems in getting a merit PT (expecially SAM), so bringing up MNK's practicality in HNM is appropriate (I've never heard of one going to tiamat and doing very well. Full Swing? SAM.).

What I’m saying is, the difference in merit/low def mob killing ability between the melee jobs is now more even, so MNK needs to be improved on the mobs that are not as melee friendly, just as DRK & SAM are right now. However, I don’t think it should outshine DRK’s zerg ability or SAM’s WS spamming. It just needs something so it can at least fit in, since Chi-Blast sure as Hell ain’t doing it.

To dumb this down even further, BLM is good at everything (Exp, HNM, etc.), MNK is only good at one thing (tanking & killing low level/def mobs), and unlike BLM, MNK doesn't currently share any other traits with its only competition. That's the difference.

[Sanjiyan]

Wow, someone who understands the fundamental problems facing MNKs, and not just another person who levelled MNK to merit whore when their previous job couldn't, or comes here to sprout off the same old cop-out response of "don't like it don't play it" or "lol job change buton".

If nobody "complained" nothing would be changed. Well... except SAMs since SE loves them.

[Alleya]

I am a career monk, missing only a whitebox or two and relic. I'm here to tell you right now that monk does not need changing. I was shocked when they announced monk would be getting something new - they really don't need it. I fully expected it to be a hardcore nerf. I think what you fail to understand is that there is no job that is effective in all situations. No, not even your irrational arch-nemesis the samurai (I have that leveled, too. There's a ton of shit I would never use it for.)

I think the only game mechanic anyone is failing to understand is you: Square put the job change button in so that if one job isn't ideal for what you want to do, you have the option of 19 others. If every job was 100% effective in every situation, we'd all just level nin/whm or nin/dnc and never bother with anything else. It would be pointless.

Monk is by no means in need of any fixing. I simply cannot fathom how you can say that. They are ridiculously effective at 80% of anything you can do in this game - and believe me I have tried every single last thing I could think of or my LS would let me try. 80% is a lot higher than most jobs. So you can't damage a few HNMs...boo freaking hoo? Go change to something that's more useful and stop being so selfish.

[Maxxthepenguin]

I am a career monk, missing only a whitebox or two and relic. I'm here to tell you right now that monk does not need changing. I was shocked when they announced monk would be getting something new - they really don't need it. I fully expected it to be a hardcore nerf. I think what you fail to understand is that there is no job that is effective in all situations. No, not even your irrational arch-nemesis the samurai (I have that leveled, too. There's a ton of shit I would never use it for.)

I think the only game mechanic anyone is failing to understand is you: Square put the job change button in so that if one job isn't ideal for what you want to do, you have the option of 19 others. If every job was 100% effective in every situation, we'd all just level nin/whm or nin/dnc and never bother with anything else. It would be pointless.

Monk is by no means in need of any fixing. I simply cannot fathom how you can say that. They are ridiculously effective at 80% of anything you can do in this game - and believe me I have tried every single last thing I could think of or my LS would let me try. 80% is a lot higher than most jobs. So you can't damage a few HNMs...boo freaking hoo? Go change to something that's more useful and stop being so selfish.

This also goes especially for people who want new toys just because a job doesn't get many toys. Each job you haven't leveled is FULL of toys you haven't played with. You overidentifying with one job is your problem, not our or SE's problem.

And I say that as somebody who is INFAMOUS for being a specific job.

[Zilong]

What kind of bullshit is this?

MNK? Need fixing? What the fuck?

That's why I tried to bring up ways to make MNK more useful in the endgame HNM scene, even if slightly (like going back to old chi blast days with good damage), before it was derailed by an idiot.

MNK already have an endgame event where they'd reign as a god's incarnate. Chi blast was retarded even in 2004, and only topped by forcing your melee to use nothing but spirits within, I'm glad everyone (well mostly everyone apparently) got out of that phase, and here you are wanting it back?

Also forgot nobody does anything with melee these days. It's either burn it to the ground with magic, or just zerg it with a kraken dark. Whatever.

Sorry that you/your linkshell sucks?

[ronin sparthos]

Most of which had absolutely nothing with Black Mage which is what we were discussing, you stupid twat. You're using all of that crap to draw away from the real topic. BLM has manaburns and soloing, whether SE intended them to have either has nothing to do with the fact that they HAVE THEM NOW. Even if Manaburn is usually weaker than TP burn, you can't argue against the EXISTENCE of BLM's great soloing ability, and as long as both exist, the argument for adjusting BLM to fit better in TP burns will always be an attempt at monopolization.

Manaburns and BLM solo currently are the product of a flawed system which tips the scale in the direction of melees and to hell with mages who cant heal effectively. Ages ago, people used to manaburn because it was faster - now everyone TPburns because its faster. Where is the balance? The issue isnt whats spawned because of a bad system, the arguement is to CHANGE the system and leave what was created because of its flaws in place. Thus you have options, something most people in this game dont remember for shit anymore.

Whens the last time you partied beyond ToAU at a reasonable speed? Whens the last time you had a party that didnt have a Bard or Corsair that could do decent speed on monsters that werent imps and colibri? Where is the incentive to kill stronger monsters for MORE exp?

No, im surely not yelling hysterically to stop BLM soloability, no one is saying to do away with Manaburns - the issue at hand and largely ignored is that the problem that balance in this game is dead - all it is now is two factions: Team TPburn (wannabe or not) and Team Manaburn - both hate eachother and refuse to mingle - all i invite is the option to effectively mingle and see some sort of revival of balanced parties. How this is done? Many ways have been analyzed to death before and its very much so possible.

Team TPburn - weak mobs, fast kills.
Team Manaburn - sleep things, bind things, blow shit to pieces.
Team Balanced Party - target harder things, get significantly more exp for the effort.

*Gasp* Options.

BLM can gain exp in small groups better than melee can and can do as well and sometimes better in a full group with enough mobs. This is a fact, and as long as this is a fact, nothing else matters. From this fact, we can draw that BLM, all things considered, needs no help in exp gain, so it doesn't need to be included in TP burn. BLM does not fail at exp gain, it's just weaker in the most common form of it (and not even substantially), and it's stronger when low-manning. Going on about what SE wants or how the game should work does not matter, because the reality of the situation is BLM is still fucking soloing, duoing, and trioing better than any melee can while having its old advantage in end game and most events. What SE thinks doesn't matter unless they actually act on it, and last I checked, BLM can still solo for 3-10k/h, depending on how good he is (a friend of mine quoted at least 8k, so don't try to pull any shit with me).

Did i say include in TPburns? I said clear as day a balanced party option (gasp, a damned incentive might help) which would allow your non-top tier melees/mages to party and effectively get decent EXP/HR without the wondergroup setup. (You know, all the LFPs that say BRD or no PT. WHM? Nah, i'll pass on exp) Gasp, the day you dont *need* a Bard or Corsair like a crutch to do decent EXP/hr - the day you arent fighting for the same god damn 3-4camps everyone clusterfucks - the day you have an option of going to half the games zones that are dead, dying or rotting to death.

Im not anti-TPburn or anti-manaburn (hell, why would i care when i have a BRD, COR and SAM?) but the fact still remains that the game gives you no incentives to create balanced parties anymore - you dont need to enfeeble, SC, MB or even pay attention to TP moves because everything can be blown to pieces now without breaking a sweat. Its awesome after the first 100merits, but when all aspects of the EXP game are being watered down without options - its my opinion that something should be done - WotG camps are rotting to death and some people would like to actually move on. EXP is a pretty big part of the game.

[Xno Kappa]

Why bother fixing/updating any jobs at all, change job button ftw!!! Silly SE and their stupid adjustments, we should all still be RNG's goddamnit.
I guess this is what this thread ultimately comes down to. Well I'm out.

[Sanjiyan]

I am selfish, I already said it. I'm not looking for a "fix" because there is nothing to fix. Didn't I already say I agree with the balance of the MNK class? Yet at the same time, playing the same job with hardly any changes or equipment for it gets old after 3 years.

It so happens I also have other jobs at 75, and I play those more than I play MNK. I'm not sitting on my MNK job in my mog house moping over how come I'm not invited to melee at HNMs, or how I have all these MND gear and nobody chi blasts anymore. However, I can still think about what things would make me want to be on my MNK, and be asked to use it, more than my WAR.

It seems like everyone universally has a thing against asking for MNK "adjustments" (I didn't even use the word buff). Is a MNK doomed to be stagnant for eternity? Or will MNKs only be allowed to ask for stuff when other jobs are improved over it significantly? Or maybe only after MNKs gets wacked by the nerf stick. People use MNK in merits as the standard (or one of them) upon which other jobs are compared, likewise they use the same as argument against making any further changes to the job. Maybe it's time we look at the new poster child job as the standard for comparison, and leave MNK out of it so MNKs can actually ask for stuff.

And no, I have nothing against SAMs. It's a great job and I'd still be here saying the same thing if I had it at 75.

[LD]

I am a career monk, missing only a whitebox or two and relic. I'm here to tell you right now that monk does not need changing. I was shocked when they announced monk would be getting something new - they really don't need it. I fully expected it to be a hardcore nerf. I think what you fail to understand is that there is no job that is effective in all situations. No, not even your irrational arch-nemesis the samurai (I have that leveled, too. There's a ton of shit I would never use it for.)

I think the only game mechanic anyone is failing to understand is you: Square put the job change button in so that if one job isn't ideal for what you want to do, you have the option of 19 others. If every job was 100% effective in every situation, we'd all just level nin/whm or nin/dnc and never bother with anything else. It would be pointless.

Monk is by no means in need of any fixing. I simply cannot fathom how you can say that. They are ridiculously effective at 80% of anything you can do in this game - and believe me I have tried every single last thing I could think of or my LS would let me try. 80% is a lot higher than most jobs. So you can't damage a few HNMs...boo freaking hoo? Go change to something that's more useful and stop being so selfish.

Your opinion doesn't mean a lot when the actual situation speaks louder. Fact is, MNK is only especially good for merit, and now that other jobs are better in this area, it's not so special anymore. What you personally would use or have access to is meaningless in this situation. SAM & WAR are good enough Salvage tanks, every melee job can do well in merits, those are MNK's only two real selling points and they've been marginalized. Your fuzzy math and opinions don't enter into the actual weakness of the job. Every job doesn't have to be the best, but they all jave to be good enough in all end-game activities to be allowed in, otherwise we're all just leveling SAM, BRD, PLD, BLM, and RDM, because that covers every possible situation. The job change button is a cop out and is simply trying to say 'just play, don't enjoy it.' 'Ridiculosuly effective' is hyperbole I wasn't even using. I never said it was horribly weak, just that what MNK is good at is being done by more jobs, and these jobs have greater application in areas MNK does not. Why should SAM be good (not the best, but very good) on everything and MNK shouldn't? Really, what is there a MNK can do that a SAM can't these days? Salvage tank, Merits, Cerb, fafhogg, and the hard stuff MNK isn't wanted for, like Tiamat. Even WAR can be impressive with Steel Cyclone and its DW DOT was always as good as a MNK's. I don't think there's anything wrong with compensating for this.

I'll lay this out plainly one more time. What MNK is good at is done by other jobs, and that's fine really, but the problem is these jobs do things MNK can't, so even if MNK does a bit better most of the time, you can level one of these and have everything you need.

Big Fucking Deal, Ronin.

[Zilong]

I am selfish, I already said it. I'm not looking for a "fix" because there is nothing to fix. Didn't I already say I agree with the balance of the MNK class? Yet at the same time, playing the same job with hardly any changes or equipment for it gets old after 3 years.

1. Mog House > Job Change
2. ???
3. Profit

In a game where you have a library of 20 jobs to choose from, why would you want perfection in one? Most the complain against MNK's job adjustment is that the MNK is pretty close to the pinnacle of power, and any adjustment will be either be a completely useless gimmick (hay there mantra) or a nerf...that and as many people may have already figured it out, SE never bother testing any of their changes, and the atomos server exist only for taj and some other guys to hack into and put shit in AH.

Gasp, the day you dont *need* a Bard or Corsair like a crutch to do decent EXP/hr - the day you arent fighting for the same god damn 3-4camps everyone clusterfucks - the day you have an option of going to half the games zones that are dead, dying or rotting to death.

It's not a crutch as much as it is an addition that makes the whole grind bearable. I mean why do you want to spend 10 hour on 10k/hour for 10 merit when you can do that in 4?

If you want to spend twice as long for your experience, then by all mean, I just want to get it over with so I can lose it again doing something more interesting than a genocide of the beastman or avian race.

[LD]

The idea that MNK is this unstoppable melee juggernaut was true 2 years ago, the changes made since then makes that sort of thought process out-dated. It’s still the best, but this over-stating of its power probably has a lot to do with this bullshit we’re facing right now.

Job Change point is the most asinine thing to say, most of the jobs may as well not exist if we have to change jobs just to have a place in this game.

[Maxxthepenguin]

I don't know of a single job that has no place.

[Sanjiyan]

There is some serious cases of selective reading and shortsightedness here. Oh well, nap time.

We can discuss RNG when I get back.

[LD]

Sure, you can put a job anywhere, but it wont necessarily be any good there (see PUP before the update.) SAM isn't the best on low def mobs, but it's good enough in what it has to do and things beyond that where you don't NEED a MNK. Sometimes you really just need a SAM or BLM or DRK (quite frequently, actually), but you never need a MNK for anything.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Sure, you can put a job anywhere, but it wont necessarily be any good there (see PUP before the update.) SAM isn't the best on low def mobs, but it's good enough in what it has to do and things beyond that where you don't NEED a MNK. Sometimes you really just need a SAM or BLM or DRK (quite frequently, actually), but you never need a MNK for anything.

What do you NEED a SAM or DRK for? I can see a case for BLM but not SAM or DRK.

[Not Kuno]

Drk + Kraken = Cake

[LD]

You need a SAM when you don't have or can't (or don't care to) support a zerging DRK, its ability to chrun out Overwhelm/SA/TA/SATA WSs produces a lot of damage and hate that can be mitigated with Seigan 3rdeye. MNK has good DOT on mobs like cerb, but it relies more of hitting the mob, and that doesn't translate as well as SAM on harder stuff.

[Maxxthepenguin]

You need a SAM when you don't have or can't (or don't care to) support a zerging DRK, its ability to chrun out Overwhelm/SA/TA/SATA WSs produces a lot of damage and hate that can be mitigated with Seigan 3rdeye. MNK has good DOT on mobs like cerb, but it relies more of hitting the mob, and that doesn't translate as well as SAM on harder stuff.

So...You want SAM because it can do the same thing (damage) except better. You could, in fact, use a MNK. Or, if you're worried about TP, BLU or SMN.

Just making sure.

[CaptainN]

You need a SAM when you don't have or can't (or don't care to) support a zerging DRK, its ability to chrun out Overwhelm/SA/TA/SATA WSs produces a lot of damage and hate that can be mitigated with Seigan 3rdeye. MNK has good DOT on mobs like cerb, but it relies more of hitting the mob, and that doesn't translate as well as SAM on harder stuff.

So...You want SAM because it can do the same thing (damage) except better. You could, in fact, use a MNK. Or, if you're worried about TP, BLU or SMN.

Just making sure.

Don't you always want the better DD for everything when its applicable?

[FinalJustice]

The better question should be.. why should mnk NOT be improved in endgame settings??
Telling people to just go chaneg their job if they dont like it is retarded.
If thats the case, why play this game at ALL if there are things you dont like. You cant POSSIBLY see faults in things you DO like amirite???

playerA: Zomg camping kings is so annoying. SE can you make alt way sto get gear?
playerB: If you dont like kings dot play FFXI or dont camp kings at all.
playerA: .......so i shouldnt want something i like to be improved in an area its weaker in??
playerB: do something else if you dont like it!!
PlayerA: .......

Telling someone to simply go do something else is not a good rebuttal...

If thats the case why improve ANY job in this game? Why give Same, Wars Drks new abilities??? Why give PLD anything? Why give whms, or anyone anything. 80% of the jobs dont NEED anything. Everyone lieks to see additions to their favorite jobs. Stop being wet blankets on reasonable ideas trying to be job Nazi's.