Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Max™]

I'm not a Thf, nor am I fan of the "Turn Thf into post-2h Update Samurai level broken gods of death" line of thought, but how is the ability to pull hate off someone of your choice, and put it on you, with your retarded ass evasion, NOT a useful thing?

[Priran]

i can think of a million better ways to waste SE's time than planning, programming, and playtesting a new 2hour for thieves

the only 2hour that ever needed adjusting was Call Wyvern, and that was because wyverns were too intrinsic to the job to be on a 2hour timer.

[terraflarex]

I happen to agree with most of what Jeryhn posted previously...

I am sort of biased on Ranger since it's my favorite job and all but..
Give RNG a native A+ skill in both Archery and Marksmanship, seriously. The job is supposedly the master of ranged combat, A- natural skill just seems off imo.
(Sorry if this was mentioned previously and I missed it, kind of skimmed this thread)

Edit: I know Accuracy Bonus IV, blah blah, gimme the A+ natural skill or perish.

[Nyuneko]

I'm not a Thf, nor am I fan of the "Turn Thf into post-2h Update Samurai level broken gods of death" line of thought, but how is the ability to pull hate off someone of your choice, and put it on you, with your retarded ass evasion, NOT a useful thing?

Because of the timer, for me at the very least, the 5 minute timer makes it really limited, there is hardly any situation when accomplice would make a difference in the battle, it would help, but hardly "awesome" as many non-THF thought it was.

For the comment on our "retarded ass evasion"(no offense taken), if by that you mean:TAWS our tank, SA the monster, then steal hate off our tank(every 5 minutes), and watch the monster only hitting us for once before turning back to a higher-hate melee; then yes, the skill did put our evasion to good use. The only use that accomplice has is, for example, in a fight where your hate can be reset(ie Brainjack), you can have the THF steal hate off the 2nd tank before both tanks losing their hate, but how often do we fight something that has a similar effect as Brainjack? Or more importantly, how many group haven't figured out how to deal with Brainjack by the time accomplice was put in??

But I agree that we don't need any major update to make us broken like SAM during the 2h patch(they are the Japanese warriors afterall and SE is Japanese), though I would like to see, as I have posted in BRP's suggestion thread, Mug having a shorter recast and works with Aura Steal; Perfect Dodge being changed, it's sad that we are the only job that get a -1 2 hour ability(read: Invincible); and possibly a skill to pass part of the hate we have onto someone else.

[Slott]

Accomplice is retardedly overpowered in any lowman situations. I use it often duoing with my redmage buddy, in salvage, and to save mages sometimes in both einherjar and dynamis (after they sleepga shit) so mob would be on me instead of them. The timer on it is fine.

If you're unable to pull hate off another melee regularly, thats your fault, not theirs. That or stop using trick attack on them to help tank. Just because the the ability is up doesn't mean it has to be used. I'll even teach you a nifty trick. SA WS the mob, tank it as long as you can (or til your shadows are both off, then TA ws it on a different melee/tank. You held it for a while taking minimal damage, and now its on someone else. Want it back? SA ws again, or accomplice. You're a master of hate control if you do it right, and have the gear to pull it off (career thief/thief that knows how to gear properly. Not one in AF2 gear that doesn't gearswap at all and equips a thief knife mainhand)

Thief is an extremely hard job to play correctly (well), however it is open to many options depending on how well it is played/geared - unfortunately the opposite holds true and there are a bunch of retards that don't know how to play/gear a thief correctly. It doesn't need many adjustments -

Native or better than nin sj subtle blow for one, something to make up for alot of low damage hits on hnm - which feeds it enormous tp, or the capability to hit a bit harder at the expense of something else. That or fix monster TP gain formula so my retardedly fast hits don't feed it an astronomical amount of tp. I can barely keep up tanking some shit with the TP spam created by myself, let alone with other melees hitting it (FL assaults come to mind)

Some of the other listed abilities by people sound good, so there's no need for me to reiterate or add my own really, since I doubt they'd get used anyway.

[Croaker]

-Firm Grip. Merit job trait to allow 2-hand grip on a single dagger.

-.- That's just dumb.

I heard that it is in earlier FF games, but I agree that SE is dumb.

-Killing blow. Merit job trait that allows greatly increased chance of critical hits when mobs HP is less than 10%.

OK, seriously, you just copypastad WoW crap, didn't you?

Yes.

Must go play WoW now. /goodbye

[Lekyo]

Hi,

Quote:
brd
I already have 10 instruments filling up my inventory and would not like any more. (Unless they added a ballad one :bagel: ) I don't like the three song idea, I think it would just be making end game easier and in merit I am too busy already for any more songs. It seems like you just want to make this job more complicated/tedious.


Well, as I mentioned before, the new instruments wouldn't fill up your bag, just replace some of your flutes. For instance, Crumhorn would be replaced by a lute that has Carol+2 on it. The only difference you'd notice, is a different tune when played, and the Carol you add isn't counted towards the 2 song limit. You don't use carols all the time, so it would just be a nice thing to have where resistance is needed, and wouldn't take the place of your normal songs.

However, do other BRDs see this as valuable? Do they want to play the some flutes over and over? BRD is already highly wanted in parties, at all levels and situations, so improvements wouldn't seem to be a must.

I think you are nuts. I play brd most of the time and I spent alot of gil to get the Gjallarhorn so I wouldn't have to carry around so many instruments and now you want to fill up my inventory again? I can understand the music sounds but I don't play with sound anymore just so I don't have to hear it. So your adjustments just sound like you want to hear different music, which you can just modify the files.

Lekyo

[SephYuyX]

reskin the current HQ jug pets that look like normal mobs to more unique styles, similiar to how Courier Carrie looks different from normal crabs.

This is the best idea ever to get BST more invites.

[AoshiZ]

WHM: With the rise of the RDM healer for merit parties, the white mage is losing it's shine as the premier healing class. This stems partly from the fact that it's status cures are sub-able, and regular cures are just as potent whether as a Subjob or main job. Also, due to lack of native MP regen vs. an RDM, a WHM can have MP issues. To remedy this, add hastega and AoE status cures at a high level. Or a 1-3 min Divine Veil seperate JA specifically for status cures and Erase. A passive trait that increases healing potency that is gained past lv40, would help in the efficiency area.

BLM: BLMs have fallen in desire for xp parties, due to the issue that they are limited by MP, and the lack of SC's in the current xp parties. IF SC's are going to be made attractive again, then BLMs would benefit greatly from a passive ability to return 25-50% MP on Magic Bursts. Also, greatly lower resists on a Magic Bursted spell. More mobs that are vulnerable to magic like Puddings, so BLMs have more areas to xp, would be nice as well.

BRD: Bards are currently reduced to playing the same 4 or 5 songs over and over, and with the same musical tune that everyone has heard a lot, due to the 2 song limit. We would like to hear different tunes, played by different instrument types. Let them play a lute or a trumpet or something. These different instruments would each allow an extra song to be placed on targets, ie, a lute would allow another song to be placed on the target, as long as it's a defensive song (like a Carol or Knight's Minne). A trumpet would also allow another song to be placed, but only if it is an offensive ability (like Advancing March or Threnody). A bard would then be changing instruments, playing different songs that sounded different, and making use of songs that are currently not used as much.

SMN: It's been stated by SE that they want players to leave their avatars out, and they are disappointed this isn't happening. The primary reason is the high perpetuation cost versus the low melee and TP damage gained. To encourage players to leave their avatars out more, we'd need Auto-Refresh II to help counteract the perpetuation cost. Also, adding enspells to the avatars to increase the damage they deal, would help encourage players to leave them out, while also upping the damage gained via TP when using a magical BP. Avatar buff spells currently have a very small radius where they can buff, so they miss party members often; an increase to the range of these spells would help prevent MP from being wasted. An extra BP command like Rage, but for the LvII and IV spells, would also encourage a summoner to leave their avatar out to build TP for them. Normally, a summoner doens't bother, preferring to use their BP commands for buffs and a physical attack, so they don't see the point of building TP.

As for alot of the ideas (not just the quoted ones), they seem like wish list type requests rather than balancing suggestions. I think alot of critical thinking needs to be put into these ideas in terms of balance.

Specifically:

On the WHM and BLM suggestions you stress the fact that they have no native MP regen. Its not that simple to just give them more efficiency or let them get their MP back from bursts. There are specialist classes, hybrid classes, and solo classes. WHM is a specialist Healer. BLM is a specialist DD. BRD, RDM, and COR are miscellaneous support specialists (COR can be considered hybrid). The specialist classes are generally dependant on each other but make far more powerful setups when combined. Adding the ability for MP regen without having the support classes diminishes the value of Ballad and Refresh. Lets not move in the direction of making the specialist classes independant and well rounded. Rather I think idea's which enhance the classes at what they do should be considered for specialist classes. I think AOE status cures would step on SCH. Hastega would step on SMN. To be productive I'll add some ideas myself that would be more in the direction of speciliazation. Add Heals and Nukes that are insta cast for blm and whm which are MP inefficient.

On the BRD suggestion, I think the new updates will handle the ability to play more songs with the single target JA.
A different idea, although this won't improve their performance (like they need a performance increase), I'd like to be able to select the party's battle music with an ability. This may not technically increase the performance of members, but it can definitely increase the real player's spirit in fighting with their favorite ingame battle music and increase performance (Kind like real bards/battle drummers in war).

About SMN... the system for avatars is broken period. Increasing native refresh is not the solution in my opinion. If they wanted the avatars to stay out... the avatars should be fixed cost and be free (in terms of perpetuation). Summon Garuda for variable cost of MP depending on the level (level 75 being 300 MP) and after its out its free. To heal they will still need to unsummon to sit down. With adequate MP regen from the party they can keep the avatars out permanently. In order to allow the summoners to be able to switch it up, upon unsummoning they can regain some of the MP used to cast the avatar relative to the summons HP (of course with some penalty so they can't get all their MP back)

[Kenji]

I think you are nuts. I play brd most of the time and I spent alot of gil to get the Gjallarhorn so I wouldn't have to carry around so many instruments and now you want to fill up my inventory again? I can understand the music sounds but I don't play with sound anymore just so I don't have to hear it. So your adjustments just sound like you want to hear different music, which you can just modify the files.
Lekyo

Because everyone has a Gjallarhorn? At worst, you'd probably carry around 2 more instruments: 1 lute(allows 1 extra song, must be defensive) and 1 trumpet(allows 1 extra song, offensive in nature). They wouldn't have any special stats, but each would allow an extra song. And apparently, there are quite a few bards that would like differing music or to be able to place a 3rd or 4th song.

However, this is a list that the majority must like before it hits final form, so if you don't have any suggestions for what you'd like for Bard, I'll remove BRD off the list for any adjustments right now.

As for alot of the ideas (not just the quoted ones), they seem like wish list type requests rather than balancing suggestions. I think alot of critical thinking needs to be put into these ideas in terms of balance.

Indeed. These are the collected works across quite a few people, and in some cases forums as well. The whole goal is to whittle them down to a few suggestions per job, among the jobs that could really use a tweak or an improvement.

On the WHM and BLM suggestions you stress the fact that they have no native MP regen. Its not that simple to just give them more efficiency or let them get their MP back from bursts. There are specialist classes, hybrid classes, and solo classes. WHM is a specialist Healer. BLM is a specialist DD. BRD, RDM, and COR are miscellaneous support specialists (COR can be considered hybrid). The specialist classes are generally dependant on each other but make far more powerful setups when combined. Adding the ability for MP regen without having the support classes diminishes the value of Ballad and Refresh. Lets not move in the direction of making the specialist classes independant and well rounded. Rather I think idea's which enhance the classes at what they do should be considered for specialist classes. I think AOE status cures would step on SCH. Hastega would step on SMN. To be productive I'll add some ideas myself that would be more in the direction of speciliazation. Add Heals and Nukes that are insta cast for blm and whm which are MP inefficient.

In your line of thought, BRD getting ballad and dispel stepped on RDM. It's vitally important that jobs can fulfill some functions of each other, so you're not forced to bring a specific class. Rather, you just need a good combination of abilities, and who cares what class they are from?

For WHM, it's not about MP regen, as it is about MP efficiency. The Regen line fits in WHM because of this. Instead of casting 1 status cure 6 times, you cast it once. RDM has to cast it one at a time, but they have refresh and convert. Thus, it's balanced.

For BLM, the MP return on MB has been suggested by several BLMs. Even before TP burning, BLMs were being spurned, because the party would have to wait for them to get MP back. Without MP, they can't do as much damage as a melee could. Again, the issue is of efficiency, for being a specialist in their field. And if SE makes a strong return to wanting SCs and MBs again, you'll want BLMs back for the MB part.

About SMN... the system for avatars is broken period. Increasing native refresh is not the solution in my opinion. If they wanted the avatars to stay out... the avatars should be fixed cost and be free (in terms of perpetuation). Summon Garuda for variable cost of MP depending on the level (level 75 being 300 MP) and after its out its free. To heal they will still need to unsummon to sit down. With adequate MP regen from the party they can keep the avatars out permanently. In order to allow the summoners to be able to switch it up, upon unsummoning they can regain some of the MP used to cast the avatar relative to the summons HP (of course with some penalty so they can't get all their MP back)

While I'd love to see free avatars, I don't think it will happen. SE has invested too much into perpetuation to see it go away. There would need to be a lot of changes to gear. Getting MP back upon release is certainly an original idea, and not bad, but what if you dismiss an avatar with full health right after you summoned it for 10mp? Plus, the stated goal by SE is to get players to keep their avatars out.

At 75 with the best gear, the perp cost isn't so bad. But along the leveling path, it really hurts, forcing the SMN to cut down on summoning and heal instead (which is more efficient). Auto-Refresh II would help gain mana back when an avatar is not out, as well as cutting into the perp cost. Personally, I'd like to see Auto-Refresh II at 50, and Auto-fresh III at 75. Really, we just need the MP to support the avatars, and I'm partially waiting to see how this new spirit MP refresh thing works out before determining whether we need more. SE has said they were looking into a couple of other things, such as increasing max mp or reducing perp cost. I hope they eventually go with the latter.

[Lampoon]

The best way to get SE's attention is to coordinate a "walk out" thru PMs that way they don't expect what is coming and when player base drops in subscribtion, they'll be like "WTF?!" Heh.

[Ryko]

The best way to get SE's attention is to coordinate a "walk out" thru PMs that way they don't expect what is coming and when player base drops in subscribtion, they'll be like "WTF?!" Heh.

Brain must recover crab meat from those that only live in the sunken wreckage of the Titanic to implement a hypnotic food additive for world domination.

This made more sense than you.

[Lampoon]

Add your own punctuations. I'm lazy.

[Ryko]

I wasn't talking about punctuation.

[Khamsin]

I wasn't talking about punctuation.

Pinky would just screw it up, anyways.

[AoshiZ]

In your line of thought, BRD getting ballad and dispel stepped on RDM. It's vitally important that jobs can fulfill some functions of each other, so you're not forced to bring a specific class. Rather, you just need a good combination of abilities, and who cares what class they are from?

For WHM, it's not about MP regen, as it is about MP efficiency. The Regen line fits in WHM because of this. Instead of casting 1 status cure 6 times, you cast it once. RDM has to cast it one at a time, but they have refresh and convert. Thus, it's balanced.

For BLM, the MP return on MB has been suggested by several BLMs. Even before TP burning, BLMs were being spurned, because the party would have to wait for them to get MP back. Without MP, they can't do as much damage as a melee could. Again, the issue is of efficiency, for being a specialist in their field. And if SE makes a strong return to wanting SCs and MBs again, you'll want BLMs back for the MB part.

At 75 with the best gear, the perp cost isn't so bad. But along the leveling path, it really hurts, forcing the SMN to cut down on summoning and heal instead (which is more efficient). Auto-Refresh II would help gain mana back when an avatar is not out, as well as cutting into the perp cost. Personally, I'd like to see Auto-Refresh II at 50, and Auto-fresh III at 75. Really, we just need the MP to support the avatars, and I'm partially waiting to see how this new spirit MP refresh thing works out before determining whether we need more. SE has said they were looking into a couple of other things, such as increasing max mp or reducing perp cost. I hope they eventually go with the latter.

Ballad and Refresh stack, finale is light based, dispel is dark based. Everything has a role. Your reasoning for "WHM getting MP efficiency" is because RDM is so well off which isn't justification, it is complaining because one job has something another doesn't. RDM's have to stay up doing debuffs, refreshing, and crowd control all the time and have poor Clear mind as a penalty. The direction this is heading towards is making all classes overlap rather than being unique. From my experience my wifes WHM does fine on MP with proper support.

On the topic of MP... BLM is to be burst DPS not sustained DPS. Although I am a proponent of BLM getting aspir 2. I am completely against them getting half their MP back from magic bursts. BLM's more or less do fine with their MP and clear mind as well (from experience).

Finally Auto-Refresh II would pretty much grant summoner with full refresh 3 MP per tick all the time (with gear). And 4 MP per tick with sanction/sigil have you thought of the ramifications for this? Its imbalancing. If you want to stay on the perpetuation cost is too high concept, they can lower the cost of the avatar's specifically. Granting more MP could have side effects such as expecting summoners to heal more with Cure 3's.

Edit:
Additional comment... the AE debuff removal sounds nice at first glace but there are reasons why people sub whm. Other mages help remove debuffs. Whm being able to ga remove all debuffs could have implications on the utility if whm sub. I would be somewhat interested in AE stona since you can't sub that but seriously... alot of these ideas sound like they cause more problems than they fix because they are self motivated.

[AoshiZ]

While I'd love to see free avatars, I don't think it will happen. SE has invested too much into perpetuation to see it go away. There would need to be a lot of changes to gear. Getting MP back upon release is certainly an original idea, and not bad, but what if you dismiss an avatar with full health right after you summoned it for 10mp? Plus, the stated goal by SE is to get players to keep their avatars out.

What i meant was, if you unsummoned an avatar that (just say) cost 300 MP at full health you would get 300 MP - (some static penalty lets say 50) 50 = 250 MP back. If the avatar took damage and was at 75% HP then it would be 300 * 0.75 - 50 = 175 (never allowing negative returns)

[LD]

Brain must recover crab meat from those that only live in the sunken wreckage of the Titanic to implement a hypnotic food additive for world domination.

Pinky would just screw it up, anyways.

Bloody awesome.

[Kenji]

Ballad and Refresh stack, finale is light based, dispel is dark based.

Corsair got a dark based dispel (and aoe refresh). Whm got a light based sleep, which steps on a BRD's light based sleep.

Finally Auto-Refresh II would pretty much grant summoner with full refresh 3 MP per tick all the time (with gear). And 4 MP per tick with sanction/sigil have you thought of the ramifications for this? Its imbalancing. If you want to stay on the perpetuation cost is too high concept, they can lower the cost of the avatar's specifically. Granting more MP could have side effects such as expecting summoners to heal more with Cure 3's.

I've noticed a few think auto-refresh would give back 3mp a tick. I see it as just +1 more, for 2mp a tick. And given the mp-intensive nature of what SMN does, they need it. Although it might be better to just lower perp cost and reduce the mp requirement for some of the BPs.

Additional comment... the AE debuff removal sounds nice at first glace but there are reasons why people sub whm. Other mages help remove debuffs. Whm being able to ga remove all debuffs could have implications on the utility if whm sub. I would be somewhat interested in AE stona since you can't sub that but seriously... alot of these ideas sound like they cause more problems than they fix because they are self motivated.

It's to give whm more unique power in later levels, when other jobs can sub whm and heal just fine while also bringing other benefits. A WHM in later levels has: Raise 2, Raise 3, Regen 2 and Regen 3. Well, SCH is getting Regen 2, so WHM just has the better raises, mainly, which is moot if no one is dying. Divine Veil is a 10 min cooldown. I don't see AoE status cures as overpowering. A WHM, in addition to healing, is also throwing out debuffs and sleeping things if need be(in parties without RDMs or BRDs). So they can use just as much MP as RDMs. Parties shouldn't be handicapped by the WHM's mp, if there is no RDM, BRD, or COR available.

Edit: Fixed the corsair light/dark based dispel thing.

[AoshiZ]

Corsair got a light based dispel (and aoe refresh). Whm got a light based sleep, which steps on a BRD's light based sleep.

Repose is light based Sleep2 level... Corsair's refresh stacks also... corsairs light based dispel is on a timer with limited usability. BTW corsair is a hybrid class which is a mix... not specialized. Seriously stuff has purpose.

Edit:
additional comment... ok i guess you don't understand what i mean by the "effects stack". It means that they can add to each other and make their existence meaningful. I have never argued about the ability to have variability in PT's by choosing one over the other. But MP efficiency in WHM and BLM could remove the necessity of the regenerative buffs of the support classes.