Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Genosync]

I've always thought BRD should get JA's similar to BLU's Diffusion/Convergence, though on much shorter timers. Concert and Solo, i dunno. Seems like there are instances where being able convert a normally AoE song, like Ballad, into a single target song with increased potency and/or make normally single target songs, like Dirge or Sirvente, AoE may be of benefit (Old school Etude action). This would also open up a potentially more potent Sleep(?) (Solo Horde Lullaby) and Elegy-ga/Finale-ga, if that's worth anything.

Probably would just make more work for the Bard though. >_>

Songs take too freaking long to cast and I'd always fall asleep from the lack of involvement and boredom.

And no, JSE and other crap doesn't fix this issue except in merit PTs (where I actually enjoyed bard as long as I had jse body + jse ring) because you can't get away with either at HNMs (in most cases).

[AoshiZ]

To me Retaliation is barely ahead of Zanshin, "another" job trait that optimally should never get a chance to proc.

The two abilities are completely different and shouldn't be compared.

Just because Retaliation doesn't fit into your style of play doesn't mean it sux. It means that YOU don't have alot of use for it. Have you considered a strategy where you could maximize the potential of the ability? What you're saying is similar to saying "Seigan sux because it slows my utsu recast and when i have shadows up I'm hardly getting a chance to anticipate/counter the attack" or "Counterstance sux because when i play my preference of Mnk/Nin, I never counter with shadows up"

And while we're talking about Zanshin. Zanshin is freakin AWESOME. Alot of people mistakingly analyze zanshin as it being similar to an Accuracy bonus that doesn't proc on weaponskills and has little gain if you have alot of accuracy. But thats not why its good. Its good because theres a Accuracy CAP of 95%. No matter how much accuracy you get, you will never get more than 95% on average except with zanshin. Which can proc during the 5% of misses ultimately closing the gap closer to 100%. Is that alot? no, but its one of those abilities that puts your accuracy ahead which is what i think alot of the more Uber players can respect. Of course, parsers can't show this improvement in accuracy because it sees a miss and another attack after... which is why i think people underestimate the ability.

AoshiZ
Gilgamesh

[Plow]

give bard the guitar thing in the dnc picture released by SE (its not a guitar, it has another funny name)

then insert a little guitar hero-esque game to increase some attribute about the song

there you go guitar-hero fans, there you go

absolutely brilliant

I would instantly go back to ffxi full time and level bard no question lol...

[Maxxthepenguin]

give bard the guitar thing in the dnc picture released by SE (its not a guitar, it has another funny name)

then insert a little guitar hero-esque game to increase some attribute about the song

there you go guitar-hero fans, there you go

We have our one good suggestion, send to bercus and close thread

[Priran]

White Mage:

Job-based modifier for Cure spells designed to make WHM the most practical party healer.

WHM: 1.00
PLD, automatons: .95
SCH: .65
RDM: .60
/WHM: .50

Making cure spells heal for more isn't going to do much for WHM. People don't have that much HP and mobs don't hit that hard.

Scholar:

Category 1 Merits:

Weather Spell Bonus - Each upgrade increases the effect of Klimaform and Storm spells by 1%.
Helix Duration - Each upgrade increases the length of a Helix spell by 9 seconds.
Helix Damage - Adds 1 MAB to all Helix spells for each upgrade.
Stratagem Regeneration Rate - Each upgrade reduces the timer by 2 seconds.

Category 2 Merits:

Index (Job Trait) - Each upgrade increases the effect of Light and Dark Arts on a spell (MP cost, Cast and Recast time) by 3%.
Boldface (Job Trait) - Adds a Cure Potency and Magic Attack Bonus effect to Light and Dark Arts. Each upgrade adds 5% Cure potency and 5 MAB.
Plus Ultra (Job Ability) - The next spell is cast instantly, but recast is doubled. 15 minute base cooldown, each upgrade is -2:30.
Saber (Spell) - Weapon Delay -5% and Attack +5%. 100MP to cast. Each upgrade is 20 MP off of the cost.

[Sekkite]

White Mage:

Job-based modifier for Cure spells designed to make WHM the most practical party healer.

WHM: 1.00
PLD, automatons: .95
SCH: .65
RDM: .60
/WHM: .50

Only do that if all cures becomes uncapped.

[BRP]

Job-based modifier

Could be skill based to give that a point.

[LD]

Ehhhhh, I think it's better to enhance a job than gimp all the others.

The point beyond my idea is to make Cure 3 & 4 more enmity efficient with Cure 5 keeping its station as a super heal, used for only the really bad moments.

[Priran]

Job-based modifier

Could be skill based to give that a point.

except light arts can give anyone B+ skill

[Priran]

Ehhhhh, I think it's better to enhance a job than gimp all the others.

The point beyond my idea is to make Cure 3 & 4 more enmity efficient with Cure 5 keeping its station as a super heal, used for only the really bad moments.

You can learn to manage hate, but you can't do anything about people being more inclined to pick longevity and versatility over marginally stronger Cures.

[LD]

Thing is it wouldn't be marginal, it would be substantial. 50% more healing power for 50% of the hate you're get for curing the same amount. The idea is each tier goes up to the base effectiveness of the next one (well, roughly...and except for Cure 1), making healing much more MP efficient, then to guard against the cure spamming ability of some other job, the enmity reduction ensures that WHM is always much safer doing it. With /SCH and WHM's already strong pool of cure enhancing spells, WHM could be able to spam more easily, and in the end be a better healer.

[Priran]

Thing is it wouldn't be marginal, it would be substantial. 50% more healing power for 50% of the hate you're get for curing the same amount. The idea is each tier goes up to the base effectiveness of the next one (well, roughly...and except for Cure 1), making healing much more MP efficient, then to guard against the cure spamming ability of some other job, the enmity reduction ensures that WHM is always much safer doing it. With /SCH and WHM's already strong pool of cure enhancing spells, WHM could be able to spam more easily, and in the end be a better healer.

You're missing the point. The only situations where increasing the amount healed vs enmity gained matter are situations in which WHM is already used, namely long fights against mobs who hit like Mack trucks.

In order to get WHM involved in fights against weaker enemies who'll never do enough damage in a reasonable period of time to warrant a 600 HP Cure IV, or fights too short for enmity to matter, you have to reduce the ability of other classes to play the healer.

[Plow]

What FFXI clearly needs is a nerf to smn, brd, and blm healing ability.


Obviously.


Oh and bst too, of course.


And not just any nerf, cut it in half with no change in mp usage.

[Priran]

What FFXI clearly needs is a nerf to smn, brd, and blm healing ability.


Obviously.


Oh and bst too, of course.


And not just any nerf, cut it in half with no change in mp usage.

The sarcasm really added a lot to your point.

Jobs should suck at something they have nothing to do with, and abilities vital to a job subbed should be nerfed when it's subbed. Crazy, I know. Maybe you can explain why a BRD should be able to sub WHM and cast a Cure III for as much as a WHM, but that same BRD can't sub SAM and Meditate for as much as a SAM, can't sub DRK and Souleater as well as a DRK, and so on. Or why a RDM can't nuke as well as a BLM but can more than cover for a WHM.

Make BLM, BRD, SMN, and BST better at what they do instead of walking all over WHM.

[Max™]

*looks at his barely 170 Hp Curing Waltz II's*

*sighs remembering how close he once got to 230 Hp*

[Plow]

What FFXI clearly needs is a nerf to smn, brd, and blm healing ability.


Obviously.


Oh and bst too, of course.


And not just any nerf, cut it in half with no change in mp usage.

The sarcasm really added a lot to your point.

Jobs should suck at something they have nothing to do with, and abilities vital to a job subbed should be nerfed when it's subbed. Crazy, I know. Maybe you can explain why a BRD should be able to sub WHM and cast a Cure III for as much as a WHM, but that same BRD can't sub SAM and Meditate for as much as a SAM, can't sub DRK and Souleater as well as a DRK, and so on. Or why a RDM can't nuke as well as a BLM but can more than cover for a WHM.

Make BLM, BRD, SMN, and BST better at what they do instead of walking all over WHM.

Because DRK don't get Souleater IV and V?

A RDM can't outright heal as well as a WHM either, it's just the other tricks that cover the gap, in *gasp* a different manner. How come a RDM can't raw heal as well as a WHM but can raw tank as well as anything?


And you can't honestly be suggesting that smn/whm, brd/whm, or anything/whm other than rdm and scholar mains which would be unaffected by the sub nerf is somehow stepping on whm toes. You could just admit you didn't consider how ridiculously harsh that would be especially on smn and bst, but, lolinternet.

[Priran]

Because DRK don't get Souleater IV and V?

Can we just take a moment to get the idea out of our heads that healing spells work like everything else and that more is better? Cure III is enough to cover pretty much any enemy you're expecting to fight if the only healer you brought along is a BRD/WHM. You don't get brownie points for waiting for someone to get hurt enough to warrant a higher tier of Cure to heal them, you get dead party members.

A RDM can't outright heal as well as a WHM either, it's just the other tricks that cover the gap, in *gasp* a different manner. How come a RDM can't raw heal as well as a WHM but can raw tank as well as anything?

The formula is the same for both jobs and the cap is easily reached. A Cure IV from a WHM and RDM differ from each other by a trivial amount of HP, unless the WHM is wearing a Blessed Briault in which case it shoots up a whole 40 points, give or take. And the fact that RDM heals for that whole 10% less but still stands head and shoulders above WHM as the de facto healer for almost anything just kind of proves my point that making them stronger for WHM and leaving them alone for everyone else isn't going to do squat.

Tricks like what? Convert? The ability to do something else for a party? They don't "cover the gap", they tear it open and shit into it.

And you can't honestly be suggesting that smn/whm, brd/whm, or anything/whm other than rdm and scholar mains which would be unaffected by the sub nerf is somehow stepping on whm toes. You could just admit you didn't consider how ridiculously harsh that would be especially on smn and bst, but, lolinternet.

You being so self-assured that you thought of something I didn't is kind of cute, but it's kind of hard to add "/WHM" to a list of jobs whose ability to cure is nerfed without thinking about jobs who regularly sub WHM. Honestly I don't care, but I figured SMNs would rather be disassociated with main healing, no one subs WHM to BLM anymore, and neither BRD nor BST has a native MP pool to begin with and can go sub NIN.

[Plow]

Because DRK don't get Souleater IV and V?

Can we just take a moment to get the idea out of our heads that healing spells work like everything else and that more is better? Cure III is enough to cover pretty much any enemy you're expecting to fight if the only healer you brought along is a BRD/WHM. You don't get brownie points for waiting for someone to get hurt enough to warrant a higher tier of Cure to heal them, you get dead party members.

Sooo... you compare meditate to cure, and then are going to argue that I'm being silly comparing cures to job abilities? oooook....

And... now we're somehow talking about a brd acting as main healer? What? puff puff pass thx

[quote:2udbiujc]A RDM can't outright heal as well as a WHM either, it's just the other tricks that cover the gap, in *gasp* a different manner. How come a RDM can't raw heal as well as a WHM but can raw tank as well as anything?

The formula is the same for both jobs and the cap is easily reached. A Cure IV from a WHM and RDM differ from each other by a trivial amount of HP, unless the WHM is wearing a Blessed Briault in which case it shoots up a whole 40 points, give or take. And the fact that RDM heals for that whole 10% less but still stands head and shoulders above WHM as the de facto healer for almost anything just kind of proves my point that making them stronger for WHM and leaving them alone for everyone else isn't going to do squat.

Tricks like what? Convert? The ability to do something else for a party? They don't "cover the gap", they tear it open and shit into it.[/quote:2udbiujc]

You'd rather have a rdm healing you than a whm for stuff like ice zones, wyrms, baha, toau kings, etc? No, see, shit is situational. Rdm outlast whm, that's they only way they're better in actual healing, plain and simple.

[quote:2udbiujc]And you can't honestly be suggesting that smn/whm, brd/whm, or anything/whm other than rdm and scholar mains which would be unaffected by the sub nerf is somehow stepping on whm toes. You could just admit you didn't consider how ridiculously harsh that would be especially on smn and bst, but, lolinternet.

You being so self-assured that you thought of something I didn't is kind of cute, but it's kind of hard to add "/WHM" to a list of jobs whose ability to cure is nerfed without thinking about jobs who regularly sub WHM. Honestly I don't care, but I figured SMNs would rather be disassociated with main healing, no one subs WHM to BLM anymore, and neither BRD nor BST has a native MP pool to begin with and can go sub NIN.[/quote:2udbiujc]

So what's the point? Why add it when the only thing it would really do is make whm an utterly and completely useless subjob, leaving smn with essentially nothing whatsoever to do between blood pacts?




Btw your argument is also flawed in that you're stating that healing quantity is not what matters, then stating that the solution is widening the gap in healing quantity. Basically just forces someone to have a shit subjob for -na.

[Priran]

Btw your argument is also flawed in that you're stating that healing quantity is not what matters, then stating that the solution is widening the gap in healing quantity.

Except that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that widening the gap in healing quantity is the only way to fix WHM, but the gap should be widened by making other healers weaker instead of making WHM stronger, due to the lack of need for stronger healing spells.


Pretty much everything in your post can be attributed to not reading, and I'm tired of writing huge replies that aren't getting read. Just thought I'd clear that one part up.

[Shassira]

Let's remove the sub jod system altogether. I mean, if all we are gonna get is gimped crap, why even have it? :O
Oh wait, the whole idea of the sub job system is to actualy be able to use stuff from other jobs without... being on that job!

Advocating for a nerf to fix the importance of a job is so silly i'm having a hard time believing what i'm reading. There's some obvious *out of place* things that make the main job obsolete, but /whm isn't exactly one of them. Want an example? BST. /bst gives you everything a main BST gives you in terms of charm (sure, assuming you leveled BST to 75, but that means nothing for the argument) and makes it even better adding the different gear options your main job may have, not to mention a ton of tools it may have. RDM/BST anyone? Hell, even BRD/BST, BLU/BST and oh god, i've even done MNK/BST in a duo to 75 (yup, you read it well). They all worked as well or better than BST, and you know why? Because they give the same and the sub job is not nerfed.

But you think that the fix is to nerf the sub job? That's pathetic, that will fix nothing, that will just make BST unapealing altogether. I don't want to remove other jobs from what i'm capable to do, what i want is having something else that defines my job past the sub job. In the case of BST this are the jug pets which we all know they need a fix now. Snarl is not enough to make BST stand over the sub job combos.

What does this have to do with WHM? WHM still has job defining abilities that put them apart from any xxx/whm with a ton of MP. Check SMN... they will never replace a WHM no matter how much MP they have. Thinking that "curing" is the job defining ability on a whm is like saying "hitting stuff" is what defines a WAR and anyone subbing war should be nerfed.

I love this quote though:

Can we just take a moment to get the idea out of our heads that healing spells work like everything else and that more is better? Cure III is enough to cover pretty much any enemy you're expecting to fight if the only healer you brought along is a BRD/WHM. You don't get brownie points for waiting for someone to get hurt enough to warrant a higher tier of Cure to heal them, you get dead party members.

You are right. No mob hits for more than 210 HP, no AoE hits for more than 210 HP. And ofcourse no mob does an AoE for more than 210 HP and then hits your shadowless tank for more than 210 HP. Cure III is all you need.
One of the most frustrating aspects of SMN healer is not having a reliable higher tier cure (not even from your lolAvatars) and having to wait on that timer on Cure III to spam it, including the cast time.