Opinions for Job Adjustments

[BRP]

I don't know, with skill you can likely accomplish something similar especially if you base it on WHM's skill and having other jobs catch up with gear(and potentially merits). Worse case scenario you'd just give WHM more healing skill JSE gear.

Also, one of the major problems with healing goes back to the damage and how people avoid it situation. It seems when it comes to job balance you can't really ignore it.

[spooky]

Btw your argument is also flawed in that you're stating that healing quantity is not what matters, then stating that the solution is widening the gap in healing quantity.

Except that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that widening the gap in healing quantity is the only way to fix WHM, but the gap should be widened by making other healers weaker instead of making WHM stronger, due to the lack of need for stronger healing spells.
Pretty much everything in your post can be attributed to not reading, and I'm tired of writing huge replies that aren't getting read. Just thought I'd clear that one part up.

Why is that the only way?
Let's consider it was the oposit of what you propose. If WHM cures were made stronger then instead of using Cure4 you could use cure 3, and instead of using cure 3 you could use cure 2. Allowing you to out perform all other healers. That would fix the lack of need for stronger curing spells, by just replacing what you were doing before with lower teirs.
It would also save on the number of times you would use DS.

[LD]

Exactly, thank you. Plus, it's not like there'll never be a need for a 1k+ Cure5, you just wont be using it on stuff that doesn't drop a fuckton of damage in one go.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

WHM/PUP works well in some areas

[Priran]

Why is that the only way?
Let's consider it was the oposit of what you propose. If WHM cures were made stronger then instead of using Cure4 you could use cure 3, and instead of using cure 3 you could use cure 2. Allowing you to out perform all other healers. That would fix the lack of need for stronger curing spells, by just replacing what you were doing before with lower teirs.
It would also save on the number of times you would use DS.

Making Cure III strong enough to replace IV does nothing about the jobs who can still use IV to main heal while providing way more for the party than WHM can.

Let's remove the sub jod system altogether. I mean, if all we are gonna get is gimped crap, why even have it? :O
Oh wait, the whole idea of the sub job system is to actualy be able to use stuff from other jobs without... being on that job!

Advocating for a nerf to fix the importance of a job is so silly i'm having a hard time believing what i'm reading. There's some obvious *out of place* things that make the main job obsolete, but /whm isn't exactly one of them. Want an example? BST. /bst gives you everything a main BST gives you in terms of charm (sure, assuming you leveled BST to 75, but that means nothing for the argument) and makes it even better adding the different gear options your main job may have, not to mention a ton of tools it may have. RDM/BST anyone? Hell, even BRD/BST, BLU/BST and oh god, i've even done MNK/BST in a duo to 75 (yup, you read it well). They all worked as well or better than BST, and you know why? Because they give the same and the sub job is not nerfed.

The point is to be able to use some stuff. The BST thing is definitely the exception to the rule. As much as you'd like it not to be, BST's viability as a subjob being dependent on the level of your BST main is important because it is the only example of something like that in the game.

/DRK souleater is only half as much damage for normal HP loss. /DRGs can't call wyverns. /BRDs and /CORs can only put one roll or song on a player at a time. /THF SA and TA don't have DEX or AGI mods. /SAM Meditates are only 60 TP. /NIN Utsusemi: Nis are only 3 shadows. /SMN and /PUP pets are based on the level of your subjob and are completely useless offensively. /DNC Curing Waltz II is nerfed when DNC is a subjob lol where have I heard that?

Jobs aren't as useful as subs as they are when they're your main job. Hence the "sub-" in "subjob".

But you think that the fix is to nerf the sub job? That's pathetic, that will fix nothing, that will just make BST unapealing altogether. I don't want to remove other jobs from what i'm capable to do, what i want is having something else that defines my job past the sub job. In the case of BST this are the jug pets which we all know they need a fix now. Snarl is not enough to make BST stand over the sub job combos.

Again, I feel I have to reiterate that I was under the impression most BSTs didn't sub WHM and instead subbed NIN. SE could also just, gasp, buff your job and make you not need however many Cure IIIs you can squeeze out of no-natural-MP.

What does this have to do with WHM? WHM still has job defining abilities that put them apart from any xxx/whm with a ton of MP. Check SMN... they will never replace a WHM no matter how much MP they have. Thinking that "curing" is the job defining ability on a whm is like saying "hitting stuff" is what defines a WAR and anyone subbing war should be nerfed.

Stona: Job-defining ability or most job-defining ability?

What makes a WAR good is the fact that it gets the largest, most varied, and best selection of gear in the game, which is something you can't sub. What sets DDs apart from each other is the facet of doing damage in which they best excel i.e. doing damage while taking none, doing lots of damage quickly, doing tons of damage slowly, skillchaining, magic bursting, etc.

Healing is healing. As far as mages go, there's only one way to do it, and anyone can do it equally well.

I love this quote though:
[quote:65e448e2]
Can we just take a moment to get the idea out of our heads that healing spells work like everything else and that more is better? Cure III is enough to cover pretty much any enemy you're expecting to fight if the only healer you brought along is a BRD/WHM. You don't get brownie points for waiting for someone to get hurt enough to warrant a higher tier of Cure to heal them, you get dead party members.

You are right. No mob hits for more than 210 HP, no AoE hits for more than 210 HP. And ofcourse no mob does an AoE for more than 210 HP and then hits your shadowless tank for more than 210 HP. Cure III is all you need.
One of the most frustrating aspects of SMN healer is not having a reliable higher tier cure (not even from your lolAvatars) and having to wait on that timer on Cure III to spam it, including the cast time.[/quote:65e448e2]I love it too, because it show that you weren't reading. BRD/WHM was an example used by Plow to show how crippling a /WHM nerf would be. What I'm saying is that if your only healing is coming from a BRD/WHM, which is what's implied by a healing nerf being devastating to BRDs, you can't be expecting much damage to begin with. Meaning weak mobs and shadows all around. If you're expecting a stronger enemy, you've got a stronger healer, and the BRD is free to sub something more useful.

And again, I figured SMNs would rather be disassociated with main healing duties and more on buffing and damage with avatars. Or healing HP and status with avatars, I hear they can do that too.

[LD]

Why is that the only way?
Let's consider it was the oposit of what you propose. If WHM cures were made stronger then instead of using Cure4 you could use cure 3, and instead of using cure 3 you could use cure 2. Allowing you to out perform all other healers. That would fix the lack of need for stronger curing spells, by just replacing what you were doing before with lower teirs.
It would also save on the number of times you would use DS.

Making Cure III strong enough to replace IV does nothing about the jobs who can still use IV to main heal while providing way more for the party than WHM can.

Then the reverse would be true, so why bother nerfing it? Also, it's not necessarily true. Imagine a PT where cures were more MP and enmity efficient, blood tanking wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a problem. With WHM, the only job that could cure bomb like this, PTs might be able to completely throw out personalized defense for all out offense, dramatically changing merit PT requirements.

[Priran]

Then the reverse would be true, so why bother nerfing it? Also, it's not necessarily true. Imagine a PT where cures were more MP and enmity efficient, blood tanking wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a problem. With WHM, the only job that could cure bomb like this, PTs might be able to completely throw out personalized defense for all out offense, dramatically changing merit PT requirements.

Making cures wildly MP inefficient for anyone but WHM would discourage people from using these people as healers, since they couldn't do it for long, and they couldn't match the kind of damage a WHM could.

The damage taken by a face-tanking DD/WAR would be so ridiculous and with a margin of error so low that I don't see it catching on. SE would probably never give curative magic that much of a boost, and people would rather use shadows than trust that their WHM is going to be able to keep up. Plus, the enmity buff would be pretty much necessary.

[LD]

So your argument is that it would work as intended and that SE will never do it...

[Maxxthepenguin]

So your argument is that it would work as intended and that SE will never do it...

Wait, and SE will do the rest of the thread? HAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Priran]

So your argument is that it would work as intended and that SE will never do it...

...no.

My argument is that the playerbase isn't going to seek out new ways to take damage in order to accommodate a huge boost to WHM cures, because it's dangerous and the old ways work just as well.

[BRP]

I'd like to see SMN get a "Cover" ability with their summons. This is the best idea for damage mitigation I can come up with. Would certainly be nice for PvP if nothing else.

[Plow]

Pirian the fact of the matter here is that you're saying there's no way to actually make whm usefully better, so just shit on anyone else that might possibly ever be used in place of one, so that no one can ever get by without a whm.


Fuck that, fix the class by fixing the class, not by shitting on people that have been shat all over ever since people figured out they could actually hit stuff with melee attacks. (i.e. smn and blm.)

[LD]

What exactly are we talking about here? Scratch that, I'll hit both areas of interest.

Merit: In a group with at least one BRD, the only thing a RDM is really doing is exactly what a WHM would, once you get right down to it. The only thing that really separate them is the MP regeneration of RDM. With /SCH, the changes I'm suggesting, and possibly Devotion, the gap is much less wide, if not nonexistent. They wont have to look for new ways to take damage, things like Seigan & Utsu simply wouldn't be used in favor of keeping DOT high. It wouldn't be as dangerous for a WHM because of the massive enmity cut. The natural speed of a burn will keep the number of cures, and then the MP used relatively low (not to mention Curegas.)

HNM: Pretty much the same thing, minus dropping defense, and the enmity- is the real boon here. The few times a PLD actually needs to be cured by someone else, a WHM would be the only one that a PLD would want to do it, even if another job could cure the same amount nearly as MP-efficiently.

Again..

Making cures wildly MP inefficient for anyone but WHM would discourage people from using these people as healers, since they couldn't do it for long, and they couldn't match the kind of damage a WHM could.

This is the entire point. That players that are not WHM can't touch the healing ability of WHM.

[Genosync]

What exactly are we talking about here? Scratch that, I'll hit both areas of interest.

Merit: In a group with at least one BRD, the only thing a RDM is really doing is exactly what a WHM would, once you get right down to it. The only thing that really separate them is the MP regeneration of RDM. With /SCH, the changes I'm suggesting, and possibly Devotion, the gap is much less wide, if not nonexistent. They wont have to look for new ways to take damage, things like Seigan & Utsu simply wouldn't be used in favor of keeping DOT high. It wouldn't be as dangerous for a WHM because of the massive enmity cut. The natural speed of a burn will keep the number of cures, and then the MP used relatively low (not to mention Curegas.)

WHM can't refresh the DRK, devotion every long-period-of-time isn't enough either.

HNM: Pretty much the same thing, minus dropping defense, and the enmity- is the real boon here. The few times a PLD actually needs to be cured by someone else, a WHM would be the only one that a PLD would want to do it, even if another job could cure the same amount nearly as MP-efficiently.

Stack the hell out of -enmity gear on another job and you've got the same concept, also with your idea on curing with -enmity gear capped a WHM is going to end up curing for -75%~ of the hate of another job with no -enmity gear (which reduces the usefulness of it to a WHM and will make some of them [read: the good ones] bitch for way too long), as long as the 50% less enmity idea you have is applied before -enmity gear, and is considered separately.

[LD]

What exactly are we talking about here? Scratch that, I'll hit both areas of interest.

Merit: In a group with at least one BRD, the only thing a RDM is really doing is exactly what a WHM would, once you get right down to it. The only thing that really separate them is the MP regeneration of RDM. With /SCH, the changes I'm suggesting, and possibly Devotion, the gap is much less wide, if not nonexistent. They wont have to look for new ways to take damage, things like Seigan & Utsu simply wouldn't be used in favor of keeping DOT high. It wouldn't be as dangerous for a WHM because of the massive enmity cut. The natural speed of a burn will keep the number of cures, and then the MP used relatively low (not to mention Curegas.)

WHM can't refresh the DRK, devotion every long-period-of-time isn't enough either.

HNM: Pretty much the same thing, minus dropping defense, and the enmity- is the real boon here. The few times a PLD actually needs to be cured by someone else, a WHM would be the only one that a PLD would want to do it, even if another job could cure the same amount nearly as MP-efficiently.

Stack the hell out of -enmity gear on another job and you've got the same concept, also with your idea on curing with -enmity gear capped a WHM is going to end up curing for -75%~ of the hate of another job with no -enmity gear (which reduces the usefulness of it to a WHM and will make some of them [read: the good ones] bitch for way too long), as long as the 50% less enmity idea you have is applied before -enmity gear, and is considered separately.

Refreshing DRK. Ok, yea sure. I qualified Devotion, I realize it isn't reliable, but in conjunction with everything else...
So Other...Than That, it's the same deal, especially now that WHM has Repose for links.


Yes, you stack enmity on another job, you get that, but that's the point of making it inherent with WHM, so WHM can get an even greater benefit. Actually, I don't see how enmity gear in and of itself would be any less useful to other jobs, since the -50% would apply only to Cures and other healers have other things they would be doing, which is the entire reason WHM's healing ability needs to be enhanced. Not to mention the fact that another healer would still want as much enmity- as they could get to not piss off the tank. I'd say the inherent enmity drop would allow WHM to focus more and cure enhancement gear, but so much of it is tied to enmity-, it's a non-issue.

[Shinta]

Saw an interesting WHM discussion so I thought I'd jump in. If I was going to do anything to adjust WHM, I would help with their defensive buffing ability. WHM for me is known for more then just curing, they should be the job that can cast the best protective magic, and it should be noticeable.

I would first, seriously improve Protectra and Shellra V and give them a small percentage chance to block attacks. Next, tier two Barspells. Third, I would like to see two new spells introduced. Bubble, allowing WHM to boost the maximum HP of one person in the party. This would be perfect for WHM who will never have a reason to use Divine Seal Cure V outside of Besieged, this will let them throw out a 1,600 HP cure once in a long while in endgame. Third, a stoneskinga-like spell called Shield. Direct damage mitigation of some kind seems like exactly what WHM needs. This is in addition to a Divine Veil adjustment that I think most people can agree needs to happen.

[LD]

Shellra V is actually pretty good as it is and it will get better once G2s go up to lvl 5. Protectra V is the steaming pile of shit here, and additonal upgrades wont change that (+4 def, fan-fucking-tastic.) Doesn't even hit +70 def, which is what you'd expect if you stuck to the pattern. To offset the diminished worth of defense, they would have to add some sort of 'physical damage minus' effect.

WHM being the best at party defense sort of went out the window once SCH came along. They have Bar-spell enhancements and an enhanced ProtV might help even more, but at the end of the day, WHM was always more of a healer than a buffer.

Bubble is an interesting idea, but with it comes issues of duration and balance...Most effects that raise the player's max HP don't also heal the same amount, so even if it did, there are many application issues: How much hate would it have to give, how long would it have to last, etc. etc.

[Beckwin]

adding a little extra cure potency by whatever means (gear or traits, w/e) and really upping the potency of status ailment barspells would be fantastic. A barparalyze really worth casting would give whm a nice little boost. as is though, the job is impressive as the best healer in the game.

[LD]

Then why are people complaing and saying it's useless next to other healers to the point where I felt I had to think of something this elaborate? I would have liked to have spared the effort. -_-

[Plow]

Then why are people complaing and saying it's useless next to other healers to the point where I felt I had to think of something this elaborate? I would have liked to have spared the effort. -_-

It's just Pirian, check his title and it all makes sense ;p


The complaints are not completely illegitimate by any means of course, it's true that rdm>whm for exp, period, and that in most endgame situations another rdm is preferable to another whm 90% of the time, but as with everything the shit is situational.


I don't think anyone of any job would be opposed to giving whm some buffs, it's just nerfing other classes (especially ones that have no bearing on whm's status in any way shape or form) that would be silly.